• Welcome to Christianity Haven, thank you for visiting! If you have not already, we invite you to create an account and join in on the many discussions we have! 

    • Please be aware that when registering you must not register while using a VPN. Any registrations made using a VPN will be rejected.
    • Additionally, registration emails are not being sent out which is an issue that is being worked on. Your registration may go into an approval queue for admin approval. We work to send manual emails to the email on file, so please ensure the email you use is one you can readily access! 

IS GOD A RESPECTER OF PERSONS?

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Luk 13:27
But He shall say:
"I tell you, I know you not whence ye are;
Depart from Me,
All ye workers of iniquity."


OR...

Does God preselect certain persons and give them His Salvation no matter HOW they actually live their lives?

Does God Justify unrepentant workers of iniquity?

OR...

Does God CALL Sinners to Repentance from their sins...

And THEN Justify them?

IF they obey God's Command to Repent from their sins...

I personally think Israel pretty much debunked the idea that God saves only His Chosen...


Arsenios
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
41
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
If someone continues in darkness and destruction they obviously aren't repenting thus God has not called them, who knows what happens later on in one sinners life... only God knows his elect.
His Sheep will always run to his call, they will always hear his voice, they will always rise when he says "rise"
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
If someone continues in darkness and destruction they obviously aren't repenting thus God has not called them, who knows what happens later on in one sinners life... only God knows his elect.
His Sheep will always run to his call, they will always hear his voice, they will always rise when he says "rise"

"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance..."

Some hear this Call and repent...

Some hear it and do not repent...

All are sinners...

Who determines who repent and who do not?

OR...

Is God a respecter of persons and preselects some persons but not others to repent when He Calls sinners?


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
55
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
Luk 13:27
But He shall say:
"I tell you, I know you not whence ye are;
Depart from Me,
All ye workers of iniquity."


OR...

Does God preselect certain persons and give them His Salvation no matter HOW they actually live their lives?

Does God Justify unrepentant workers of iniquity?

OR...

Does God CALL Sinners to Repentance from their sins...

And THEN Justify them?

IF they obey God's Command to Repent from their sins...

I personally think Israel pretty much debunked the idea that God saves only His Chosen...


Arsenios
Perhaps you have cut Romans 9 out of your Bible.??? God has answered your question.
Romans 9:4-13
They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Perhaps you have cut Romans 9 out of your Bible.??? God has answered your question.
Romans 9:4-13
They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

The works referred to here are the works of the Law... And the passage affirms God's Foreknowledge, and not His preference for some rather than others... Bod fore-knows their deeds, you see... He is not the Cause of evil in Esau... The tenses God uses are past-futures - Esau whom I hated has not yet been born, yet I hated him before he was born, not because I caused him to be evil, but because I know that his deeds WILL be evil...

"...the children of the promise are counted as offspring..." And who ARE these children? They are the ones repenting from evil and overcoming evil powers and principalities... They are the ones responding in obedience to the Call of God through the Prophet John the Forerunner of the Lord:

"Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

God foreknows who will and who will not obey His Call to Repentance already...

But YOU and I do NOT know...


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
55
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
The works referred to here are the works of the Law... And the passage affirms God's Foreknowledge, and not His preference for some rather than others... Bod fore-knows their deeds, you see... He is not the Cause of evil in Esau... The tenses God uses are past-futures - Esau whom I hated has not yet been born, yet I hated him before he was born, not because I caused him to be evil, but because I know that his deeds WILL be evil...

"...the children of the promise are counted as offspring..." And who ARE these children? They are the ones repenting from evil and overcoming evil powers and principalities... They are the ones responding in obedience to the Call of God through the Prophet John the Forerunner of the Lord:

"Be ye repenting, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

God foreknows who will and who will not obey His Call to Repentance already...

But YOU and I do NOT know...


Arsenios
Do parents intentionally adopt and choose their child or do they wait until the child can make it's own choice to select the parent?
Re-read Romans 9. You, like others who deny the authoritative sovereign choice of God, seem to struggle with what it means to be a child of the promise, one whom God chooses to adopt.
 

atpollard

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
2,578
Location
Florida
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Does God CALL Sinners to Repentance from their sins...
And THEN Justify them?

IF they obey God's Command to Repent from their sins...

God commanded Jonah to go and preach to Nineveh. Jonah CHOSE of his own free will to reject the command of God. Who won that contest of wills in the end? Jonah or God.

God sent John the Baptist to call Israel to repentance. Saul of Tarsus CHOSE to disobey God’s command. God confronted Saul on the road to Damascus and Paul the Apostle was born. Who won that contest of wills? Saul or God.

Where are these people who actually say “NO” to God’s commands? Where is the evidence of an “IF they obey”?

1 John 2:19
Ephesians 2:1-10

If God actively commands it, they will obey.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
God commanded Jonah to go and preach to Nineveh.

He commanded Christ to preach to the Jews...

Jonah CHOSE of his own free will to reject the command of God.

He pulled an Adam and hid in the belly of the ship...

Who won that contest of wills in the end? Jonah or God.

Jonah was a Servant of God - And his disobedience was a sign for the Jews...

God sent John the Baptist to call Israel to repentance.

Israel disobeyed and was destroyed...

Saul of Tarsus CHOSE to disobey God’s command.

He knew it wasn't God...

God confronted Saul on the road to Damascus and Paul the Apostle was born.

That was when he knew he was wrong...

Who won that contest of wills? Saul or God.

Both...

Where are these people who actually say “NO” to God’s commands?

They are legion...

Where is the evidence of an “IF they obey”?

Israel did not obey and persecuted Christ and was destroyed and their people scattered...

Christ came for Israel and failed because Israel did not obey the Gospel command...

If God actively commands it, they will obey.

Christ came for Israel, and Israel said no and did not obey...


Arsenios
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
41
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance..."

Some hear this Call and repent...

Some hear it and do not repent...

All are sinners...

Who determines who repent and who do not?

OR...

Is God a respecter of persons and preselects some persons but not others to repent when He Calls sinners?


Arsenios
If God called everyone in the world to repent then everyone in the world would repent, we see this is not the case. I would believe that everyone in the US for example has heard about Jesus and maybe skimmed through the bible or had a preacher tell them the good news on tv or something, but if you ask them "so did God call unto you" many would just laugh and say "no" and I will take there word for it.
So what makes me and you so special? We were former atheist Arsenios, why were we called to him and why did we run to him?
You know that some Jews grumbled about themselves and Jesus told them that they can not hear Gods voice and they will not come to him for they are not of his flock. Why would he say that?
God calls you and regenerates you so that we can hear and we can repent, why are some who have heard the word -deaf to hear Gods call? Can God call them and they hear God and just say "no thanks big guy"... that makes no sense, no one can hear Gods call and reject it... we heard Gods call for repentance as atheist and we were reborn in the spirit and repented and now we follow Christ and are in Christ and are his... now that makes sense.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
If God called everyone in the world to repent
then everyone in the world would repent,
we see this is not the case.

Thank-you -
You can see the problem...
So not all are Called to repentance...

But CLEARLY Israel was called...
And CLEARLY they did not repent...
Only a few did so, and we are left with remnant theology...
Respectable in my view...

So what makes me and you so special?
We were former atheist Arsenios,
why were we called to him and
why did we run to him?

I have been arguing with God on that one for some time now - OK? I mean, when it first began to dawn on me what God was actually calling me to do, my first reaction was: "You have GOT to be kidding me!" Then "Are You REALLY that hard up, Lord? Do you REALLY have to scrape the very BOTTOM of the scunge of the barrel?" "I mean, I think you are making a BIG mistake here, OK?" And on and on... I mean, for outside ears to hear, it had to be a VERY funny 'conversation'... And to no avail on my part - I told Him He was full of 'it, and He was not even slightly fazed... We have a sort of 'working' relationship, and I am a hard sell, OK?

Now I have traced back into my life, and dug out the traces of pivotal events where God's Providence and my issues intersected, and with a lot of help, I have a very good working knowledge of how I work and why I was ready as an atheist for God - And mostly it devolved to a level of integrity that really didn't give a rap about anyone's opinions, but was willing to sacrifice my very life for the sake of truth, and did so, and caused a lot of personal wreckage in the process, having profound and foundational issues whose origins were prior to being born - "In sins did my mother bear me..." is how David said it, and mine was pre-natal trauma... And at 4-5 I determined from my brother's complaint of people lying all the time, that I would always be truthful, at least to myself... I lost track of that resolve for many many years, but never betrayed it... And I cared for others in their own terms of their own lives, without imposing my own needs on them... And all this in a rage to uncover whatever it was that was so wrong in me that made no sense yet was real...

A heck of a life that ended at death's door, done at age 36, when I met God as God, and it all turned inside out and upside down and backwards, and has remained so ever since...


You know they Jews grumbled about themselves and Jesus told them that they can not hear Gods voice and they will not come to him for they are not of his flock. Why would he say that?

Because it was true - The leadership of the Jews were foreigners who sold out to the Romans... They were not faithful Jews... They wanted to rule and were willing to submit to Rome to do so...

God calls you and regenerates you so that we can hear and we can repent, why are some who have heard the word -deaf to hear Gods call? Can God call them and they hear God and just say "no thanks big guy"... that makes no sense, no one can hear Gods call and reject it... we heard Gods call for repentance as atheist and we were reborn in the spirit and now we follow Christ and are in Christ... now that makes sense.

I was on an internet discussion board, and we had a major sociopath being pretty predatious there, and we pm'ed a plot to all pray for him that God would give him a visitation, and we did so, all of us... It was a crazy thing to do, but we did it... And the following day, this poor guy posted like we had never seen him post before... He was hesitant and bewildered, and said: "This isn't me... I don't know what happened last night... Something happened and now I am experiencing something like universal love for all of you, and this is not who I am... I am trying to recover, to be my SELF, and so far I don't even seem to care about my old self - I feel like I am betraying who I am, so please be patient with me - I will get back to normal as soon as I can..."

I like to have blown my coffee across the room laughing... Oh I KNEW what had happened to that sorry soul! And I knew he was not ready for it at all... And he gradually did manage to get back to normal, more or less... But he now knew from memory what God feels like, where's before he had not a clue...

And in my quest for healing, I moved through the realm of darkness for over 2 years, and I found that most criminals had experienced divine encounters, and not been changed by them... So your idea that because such encounters are so compelling to you and me that they MUST be compelling to all who experience them is simply false... In horse training, you seek to get the horse to TAKE the bit and ANTICIPATE what you want him to do... Some do, and some don't... Theologically, the reason rests on the person who is understood as the hypostasis, the basis of decision in this fallen life... And the benefit of getting Baptized is fundamentally that of the re-birth of that hypostasis into Christ, where the New Creation is now Christed, and such an anointing in the Holy Spirit gives those who have it the status of being among the Living, and not the Dead, and as Living, they are not to cast aside what they have been given at such cost by Christ's Crucifixion...

The whole point of discipleship is to PREPARE the person for the encounter with God that will come, in this life or the next. And that preparation "makes straight the Way of the Lord..." And it goes on throughout one's life, and for those perfected in the Faith of Christ, it can have profound impact in the repentance of others, where "the prayers of a righteous man availeth much..."


Arsenios
 
Last edited:

atpollard

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 6, 2017
Messages
2,578
Location
Florida
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Two big thumbs up ... :thumbsup::thumbsup: ... that was a great answer!

Rather than scripture pong, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on God’s arm being short. :ewink::shake:
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2018
Messages
3,577
Location
Pacific North West
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Eastern Orthodox
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Well, Jonas was a Typos of the Rebirth of Christ from the Tomb - Indeed from the jaws of Death itself in Hades - The human nature Christ took on for us did NOT want to die on the Cross, but was obedient to the Father with Whom He ontologically IS ONE... Jonas did not want to go either... Yet in his disobedience, he told the crew of the boat to throw him into the seas to save themselves, which they reluctantly were forced to do by the increasing of the storm... And the whale swallowed him whole and as one dead he emerged alive after three days and nights, as did Christ from the Tomb...

The Ninevites repented, as did the Jews except for the rulers, and later relapsed and were destroyed, as were the Jews in the ruin of Jerusalem...

So it does not admit of facile perusal on a question of God's Will vs Jonas' will...

I like to think of him as the Reluctant Prophet...

I empathize with him in some ways...

But moreso with the demoniacs of Legion...

And with the pigs, I should quickly add!! :)


Arsenios
 
Top Bottom