In what ways does the Apocrypha point to Jesus as Savior?

NathanH83

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You have committed ANOTHER fallacy, argumentum ad populum.

Go ahead and think that if you want. The point I was making is that Augustine’s quote that you provided is not representative of all the rest of the early church.

The fact that so many in the early church defended the LXX chronology, this shows that it’s not just a loony conspiracy theory from some crazy guy on YouTube (as some have insinuated about me). But rather, it’s a belief held by many in the early church for the first 4 centuries of Christianity.
 

Josiah

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I find it interesting that you prefer Augustine, who did NOT attend the Council of Nicaea, but you reject Eusebius who DID attend the Council of Nicaea.

I tend to think that Eusebius probably had a better grasp on what the early church fathers at the Council of Nicaea believed, since…HE WAS THERE.


The Council of Nicaea decided NOTHING about the canon of Scripture.... NOTHING. So your point is completely irrelevant.

I said nothing about Augustine in this regard. But it IS obvious that you are very very inconsistent in your apologtics - insisting something is fact if you twist one individual in some snippet saying something you like it but then just ignore when others contradict your view. Origen has PROVEN this in you, over and over again.

I said you are WRONG when you insist the Pope presided over the Council of Nicaea (he wasn't even there! He stay away for the entire event, sending a deacon to represent the diocese). But this is another - yet another, still another - diversion attempt on your part, because the Council of Nicaea decided NOTHING about the canon..... NONE of the Ecumenical Councils did... NONE of them. Yes, there are individual persons accepting books you accept and books you don't accept but this shows that there were individuals that accepted books you accept and ones you don't, it substantiates NOTHING else. Will you ever choose to consider reality? Well, it's been over a year now.


See posts 56, 57 and 58.




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NathanH83

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An argument from incredulity "asserts that a proposition must be false because it contradicts one's personal expectations or beliefs, or is difficult to imagine." That is just what you have done.

Actually my personal beliefs have nothing to do with it.

The Bible says Abraham was old and full of years. FULL of years. That’s not my opinion. That’s what the Bible says. But if Heber was still chugging away at 460 at the time of Abraham’s death, then that would mean that Abraham did not attain you even HALF the age of his great great great great grandfather who was still alive. If that’s the case, then Abraham is not old and full of years.

But in the LXX chronology, which so many in the early church defended, Heber died about 500 years before Abraham, and there is no contradiction.

PhD scholars have made this point, like Henry B. Smith, who has written articles for Answers in Genesis. Dr. Douglass Petrovich PhD has defended the LXX chronology as well, as he stated in an interview with the “Is Genesis History?” Documentary team.
 

NathanH83

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The Council of Nicaea decided NOTHING about the canon of Scripture.... NOTHING. So your point is completely irrelevant.

I said nothing about Augustine in this regard. I said you are WRONG when you insist the Pope presided over the Council of Nicaea (he wasn't even there! He stay away for the entire event, sending a deacon to represent the disocese). But this is another - yet another, still another - diversion attempt on your part, because the Council of Nicaea decided NOTHING about the canon..... NONE of the Ecumenical Councils did... NONE of them.


See posts 56, 57 and 58.




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Yes, I know the council of Nicaea didn’t discuss the canon of scripture. Thank you for pointing that out.
I was saying that Eusebius attended the council, and he would have a fairly good grasp on what the early church believed. So when Eusebius said that the churches around the world used the Septuagint, he would know. He uses this as one of the reasons why the numbers in the genealogies in a Genesis 11 should be preferred over the Hebrew. (Not really a canon topic, but more of an LXX topic).
 

Origen

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Go ahead and think that if you want.

The fact that so many in the early church defended the LXX chronology, this shows that it’s not just a loony conspiracy theory from some crazy guy on YouTube (as some have insinuated about me). But rather, it’s a belief held by many in the early church for the first 4 centuries of Christianity.
No matter how many times you repeat yourself it doesn't get better. It is still the fallacy argumentum ad populum.
 
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Origen

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Actually my personal beliefs have nothing to do with it.
Others can read and make up their own minds. An argument from incredulity "asserts that a proposition must be false because it contradicts one's personal expectations or beliefs, or is difficult to imagine."

PhD scholars have made this point, like Henry B. Smith, who has written articles for Answers in Genesis. Dr. Douglass Petrovich PhD has defended the LXX chronology as well, as he stated in an interview with the “Is Genesis History?” Documentary team.
First, Henry B. Smith does not have a Ph.D. At least his site says nothing about it.

Second, you have committed yet another fallacy, argumentum ad verecundiam. That's three.

Third, I have no doubt if I were to check there are others who disagree with them.
 
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Josiah

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Yes, the council of Nicaea didn’t discuss the canon of scripture.


Then stop mentioning it ! And stop the perpetual claim of what all CHRISTIANITY did and ECUMENICAL COUNCILS did and what ALL CHRISTIANS did.


The Ecumenical Councils did NOTHING in this regard. Nothing. N.0.T.H.I.N.G. Let that soak in. Christianity did NOTHING in this regard.




I was saying that Eusebius attended the council


You said the POPE did and that he PRESIDED over the Counci of Nicaea. And you are wrong.

Perhaps Eusebius did, so what? The Council said NOTHING about what is and is not Scripture, declared NOTHING about what is and is not canonical. So we just have yet another, still another, yet one more diversion from you. LOTS attended the meeting. None of them discussed anything about this topic. None of them decided or declared ANYTHING about this topic. No Ecumenical Council did. None of them. Not one.




when Eusebius said that the churches around the world used the Septuagint


... he offered NOTHING to substantiate that, and IF this comment of his is true, so what? Friend, I don't think anyone would be shocked that since Christians typically could not read Hebrew but could read Greek, they read things not in Hebrew but used a Greek TRANSLATION. Does that shock you? Really? Hello.... For 300 years, millions of English speaking Christians read the Bible in an ENGLISH translation (a single one, the KJV) because they could read English but not ancient Hebrew or koine Greek. Does this make the TRANSLATION normative? Well, only if you are Mormon or one of those "KJV ONLY" guys. I HOPE you'd agree that even though English speaking people used an English translation for 300 years does NOT mean that TRANSLATION is normative for all Christians and that All Christianity declared a TRANSLATION to be caonical Scripture, that TRANSLATION is Christianity's Bible and the inscripturted words of God (maybe you do, maybe you are a KJV ONLY guy). And while one (unsubstantiated) claim of this individual is likely true does NOT mean ERGO everything else he ever wrote in life is ALSO likely true (but unsubstantiated). Come on. Let's move beyond this silliness.





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NathanH83

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Then stop mentioning it ! And stop the perpetual claim of what all CHRISTIANITY did and ECUMENICAL COUNCILS did and what ALL CHRISTIANS did.


The Ecumenical Councils did NOTHING in this regard. Nothing. N.0.T.H.I.N.G. Let that soak in. Christianity did NOTHING in this regard.







You said the POPE did and that he PRESIDED over the Counci of Nicaea. And you are wrong.

Perhaps Eusebius did, so what? The Council said NOTHING about what is and is not Scripture, declared NOTHING about what is and is not canonical. So we just have yet another, still another, yet one more diversion from you. LOTS attended the meeting. None of them discussed anything about this topic. None of them decided or declared ANYTHING about this topic. No Ecumenical Council did. None of them. Not one.







... he offered NOTHING to substantiate that, and IF this comment of his is true, so what? Friend, I don't think anyone would be shocked that since Christians typically could not read Hebrew but could read Greek, they read things not in Hebrew but used a Greek TRANSLATION. Does that shock you? Really? Hello.... For 300 years, millions of English speaking Christians read the Bible in an ENGLISH translation (a single one, the KJV) because they could read English but not ancient Hebrew or koine Greek. Does this make the TRANSLATION normative? Well, only if you are Mormon or one of those "KJV ONLY" guys. I HOPE you'd agree that even though English speaking people used an English translation for 300 years does NOT mean that TRANSLATION is normative for all Christians and that All Christianity declared a TRANSLATION to be caonical Scripture, that TRANSLATION is Christianity's Bible and the inscripturted words of God (maybe you do, maybe you are a KJV ONLY guy). And while one (unsubstantiated) claim of this individual is likely true does NOT mean ERGO everything else he ever wrote in life is ALSO likely true (but unsubstantiated). Come on. Let's move beyond this silliness.





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The council of Nicaea said nothing of the canon of scripture.
But 3 other local councils later in the same century declared those books to be divine canonical scripture.

Is it therefore logical to assume that the whole entire council at Nicaea rejected the apocryphal books? And is it logical to assume that only a few decades later whole entire regions suddenly declared them to be scripture, out of nowhere and for no reason?

Is it reasonable to say that NONE of the attendees at the council of Nicaea accepted the apocrypha as scripture?
 

Albion

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The council of Nicaea said nothing of the canon of scripture.
But 3 other local councils later in the same century declared those books to be divine canonical scripture.

Is it therefore logical to assume that the whole entire council at Nicaea rejected the apocryphal books? And is it logical to assume that only a few decades later whole entire regions suddenly declared them to be scripture, out of nowhere and for no reason?

Is it reasonable to say that NONE of the attendees at the council of Nicaea accepted the apocrypha as scripture?


1. Councils do not operate on getting 100% agreement among the attendees. If that were the case, there would be no Ecumenical Councils, regardless of how any of us values these councils.

2. The other councils you are referring to, those that canonized scripture, are not Ecumenical Councils. Nicaea was.

3. When the Bible was canonized, there were a number of books that were in doubt. Some that we all acknowledge were put into the canon, but the books of the Apocrypha were included only provisionally. The final determination on them occurred in the 16th century when both Catholics and Protestants expelled some of them from the Bible.
 

Origen

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Wasn’t the council of Nicaea a Catholic council with Pope Damascus overseeing it?
Damascus was not made pope until 366. Nicaea was held in 325.

At the time of the council Sylvester I was pope but did not attend the council.

The emperor Constantine presided over the council.
 
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NathanH83

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Damascus was not made pope until 366. Nicaea was held in 325.

At the time of the council Sylvester I was pope but did not attend the council.

The emperor Constantine presided over the council.

Yes, you’re right. Pope Damascus presided over the council of Rome in 382, not Nicaea. He’s the one who commissioned Jerome to make a new latin translation.
I believe Jerome wanted to remove the books he called apocrypha, but the church leadership required him to include them, so he submitted to church authority and included them. And they remained in the Bible until…..over a thousand years into the future. THEN they were removed, by Protestants, who still kept them in the Bible, but in a separate section, of which that section was removed in 1885.

Amazing. These books were in the Bible all the way up until…even after trains were invented.
 

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Josiah

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The council of Nicaea said nothing of the canon of scripture.

Correct. NO Ecumenical Council has.


And again, not that it matters whatsoever, but the Bishop of Rome did NOT participate in this meeting, he didn't attend a single sessions of it. The DIOCESE was represented by two lowly deacons, so the DIOCESE was present, but the bishop was not. Your claim that he attended and PRESIDED over it is yet another falsehood.


But 3 local councils later in the same century declared those books to be divine canonical scripture.

LOCAL! REGIONAL! WESTERN! LATIN! meetings of a diocese presided by a bishop.... each of those bishops in submission to the Pope in Rome.... having very limited authority and only for that region. But since you don't submit to regional diocese meeting by dioceses of the Latin Chruch and bishops in submission to the Pope in Rome, that's a moot point. You don't submit to local bishops under the Pope so why should we?


Now IF (big there) IF you had posted, "These three obscure and for centuries forgotten local meetings of the Latin Church reveal that at least in those dioceases at that time, these books were in some way regarded as Scripture but we don't know if identically." IF you had said that, then everyone here would have said "Yup." Lots of book were called "Scripture" in the first centuries (including some you reject), some were denied as Scripture (some you accept) - the "consensus" was unofficial, imperfect and by no means universal. But for over a year, you've been repeating a FALSEHOOD, that CHRISTIANITY proclaimed something about some "them" you keep refusing to identify, you keep insisting CHRISTIANITY did something at some ECUMENICAL, ALL-Christianity, PAN-Christianity meeting with a date and place - officially and formally declaring for all Christians and all Christianity some (you won't identify) books to be The fully and equally canonical Scripture. CHRISTIANITY DID SOMETHING for the whole faith, for all Christians. Wrong. You've been wrong. Has has been pointed out to you over and over and over and over - for a year now - but you keep repeating it, one way or another. And you won't tell us why this matters - other than you find some books helpful (as we all do) and you claim that Christians won't read anything that isn't in a tome with "BIBLE" written on the cover.



Is it therefore logical to assume that the whole entire council at Nicaea rejected the apocryphal books?


1. WHAT books that you reject as authentic and authoritative ("apocryphal")?

2. Can you read? Do you read? What I said was the Council of Nicaea did NOTHING regarding the canon. I wrote "NOTHING" not "SOMETHING." Did you not read it? Did you misread the word? The word "NOTHING" usually means nothing. So, how in the world could I have stated that it DID something, DID something directly regarding the canon, official and binding and authoritative? Can you read?

NO ONE HERE remotely stated, said, implied or suggested that the Ecumenical Council at Nicaea ADDED or REMOVED or did ANYTHING WHATSOEVER in regard to the canon. Which is why we said it did NOTHING in this regard. Nothing usually means nothing, not something. Are you able to understand that? NONE of the Ecumenical Councils did about this. Brother, it is SO hard to have a discussion when either you can't read or don't.... when you purposely REVERSE our positions.




is it logical to assume that only a few decades later whole entire regions suddenly declared them to be scripture



Do you know what is said of the word "assume?" Did you know that "assume" is not proof? Not evidence? Not substantiation?


We've been waiting (for over a year now) for you to state which of the Ecumenical Councils officially/formally, authoritatively, for all Christianity declared these "them" books (you won't identify) to be among The inerrant, fully/equally canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God. But you won't. We all know why, because you can't. Your claim is false. It's wrong. It's baseless. It's unhistorical. Christianity never put "them" IN so it's impossibly IMPOSSIBLE for Christianity to take anything OUT of it. Christianity hasn't done anything in this regard. When will this dawn on you? When will reality matter to you?



Is it reasonable to say that NONE of the attendees at the council of Nicaea accepted the apocrypha as scripture?


You can assume what you like; changes nothing.

We have no idea what the attendees thought on this. For one VERY obvious reason: it was never reported. Simple. Obvious.

How many of them thought the world was flat? You could assume 58.9% did but you have NOTHING to substantiate that (not that EVER seems to stop you). You could assume that 92.4% of the participants reported that they believed the Earth is the center of the universe while enjoying some Martinis in the hotel lobby before dinner, but you have nothing to remotely indicate such. You seem to confuse "possible" with "fact." But only when it serves you.




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NathanH83

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Correct. NO Ecumenical Council has.


And again, not that it matters whatsoever, but the Bishop of Rome did NOT participate in this meeting, he didn't attend a single sessions of it. The DIOCESE was represented by two lowly deacons, so the DIOCESE was present, but the bishop was not. Your claim that he attended and PRESIDED over it is yet another falsehood.




LOCAL! REGIONAL! WESTERN! LATIN! meetings of a diocese presided by a bishop.... each of those bishops in submission to the Pope in Rome.... having very limited authority and only for that region. But since you don't submit to regional diocese meeting by dioceses of the Latin Chruch and bishops in submission to the Pope in Rome, that's a moot point. You don't submit to local bishops under the Pope so why should we?


Now IF (big there) IF you had posted, "These three obscure and for centuries forgotten local meetings of the Latin Church reveal that at least in those dioceases at that time, these books were in some way regarded as Scripture but we don't know if identically." IF you had said that, then everyone here would have said "Yup." Lots of book were called "Scripture" in the first centuries (including some you reject), some were denied as Scripture (some you accept) - the "consensus" was unofficial, imperfect and by no means universal. But for over a year, you've been repeating a FALSEHOOD, that CHRISTIANITY proclaimed something about some "them" you keep refusing to identify, you keep insisting CHRISTIANITY did something at some ECUMENICAL, ALL-Christianity, PAN-Christianity meeting with a date and place - officially and formally declaring for all Christians and all Christianity some (you won't identify) books to be The fully and equally canonical Scripture. CHRISTIANITY DID SOMETHING for the whole faith, for all Christians. Wrong. You've been wrong. Has has been pointed out to you over and over and over and over - for a year now - but you keep repeating it, one way or another. And you won't tell us why this matters - other than you find some books helpful (as we all do) and you claim that Christians won't read anything that isn't in a tome with "BIBLE" written on the cover.






1. WHAT books that you reject as authentic and authoritative ("apocryphal")?

2. Can you read? Do you read? What I said was the Council of Nicaea did NOTHING regarding the canon. I wrote "NOTHING" not "SOMETHING." Did you not read it? Did you misread the word? The word "NOTHING" usually means nothing. So, how in the world could I have stated that it DID something, DID something directly regarding the canon, official and binding and authoritative? Can you read?

NO ONE HERE remotely stated, said, implied or suggested that the Ecumenical Council at Nicaea ADDED or REMOVED or did ANYTHING WHATSOEVER in regard to the canon. Which is why we said it did NOTHING in this regard. Nothing usually means nothing, not something. Are you able to understand that? NONE of the Ecumenical Councils did about this. Brother, it is SO hard to have a discussion when either you can't read or don't.... when you purposely REVERSE our positions.








Do you know what is said of the word "assume?" Did you know that "assume" is not proof? Not evidence? Not substantiation?


We've been waiting (for over a year now) for you to state which of the Ecumenical Councils officially/formally, authoritatively, for all Christianity declared these "them" books (you won't identify) to be among The inerrant, fully/equally canonical, divinely-inscripturated words of God. But you won't. We all know why, because you can't. Your claim is false. It's wrong. It's baseless. It's unhistorical. Christianity never put "them" IN so it's impossibly IMPOSSIBLE for Christianity to take anything OUT of it. Christianity hasn't done anything in this regard. When will this dawn on you? When will reality matter to you?






You can assume what you like; changes nothing.

We have no idea what the attendees thought on this. For one VERY obvious reason: it was never reported. Simple. Obvious.

How many of them thought the world was flat? You could assume 58.9% did but you have NOTHING to substantiate that (not that EVER seems to stop you). You could assume that 92.4% of the participants reported that they believed the Earth is the center of the universe while enjoying some Martinis in the hotel lobby before dinner, but you have nothing to remotely indicate such. You seem to confuse "possible" with "fact." But only when it serves you.




.

Yet for some reason Jerome stated that the council of Nicaea found Judith to be holy scripture. Why did he think that?

St. Jerome, The Preface on the Book of Judith: English translation



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Andrew

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Josiah, you mention those three councils as local, Latin, west, so what about the schism? Why does the eastern orthodox still have them?
 

NathanH83

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Josiah, you mention those three councils as local, Latin, west, so what about the schism? Why does the eastern orthodox still have them?

Exactly.
Oh, it was just the west.
Oh, wait, no, the east still has them.
Oh, and so does the south, down in the Coptic church in Egypt.
Oh, and even further south in Ethiopia, they still have them.

But it was just the west. Yea.
 

Origen

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Yet for some reason Jerome stated that the council of Nicaea found Judith to be holy scripture. Why did he think that?
No one knows. Jerome does not tell and there is no record of it.
 

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No one knows. Jerome does not tell and there is no record of it.
Post #95, the one you quoted Nathan from, Jerome clearly, literally states exactly that.
 

Origen

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Post #95, the one you quoted Nathan from, Jerome clearly, literally states exactly that.
The question was asked "Why did he think that?"

My answer was no one knows. Then I explain why. Jerome does not tell us and there is no record of it.

We all can read what he claims. The question is why does he believe it and why is there no record of it. And those things he does not explain.
 
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