In what ways does the Apocrypha point to Jesus as Savior?

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
I could not agree more. Honesty, accuracy, and academic integrity are of the upmost importance. The absolute truth should be the standard we all live by no matter how much it hurts. Anything less is a slap in the fact of God HIMSELF.

What’s your stance on the Apocrypha?
Should some of the Apocryphal books be included? Or do you side with the Protestant canon?
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
We know.





I;m not required to have a stance for your stance to be true or false.



.

Ok, well, if you’re not going to tell me what your stance is, then I’m not able to understand what it is you’re arguing for or against, whether it’s the inclusion of all or some of these books, or the exclusion of them. Therefore, I won’t read your gigantic book that you posted.

There’s no need any longer for you to send me books of copied and pasted, repetitive jargon. So you can stop.

I have nothing to hide, so I’ll freely admit that I see good evidence suggesting that many of the “apocryphal” books (as we call them) ought to be included in the Bible, as they have been historically. Especially since many scriptures cannot be understood without them.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
NathanH83 said:
I’m not able to understand what it is you’re arguing for or against,


Truth.


IF you were willing to read what is posted to you, you'd know that is the issue for those posting to you. The issue, for over a year now since you came here. In all your threads and posts (most related to the topic of Scripture and canonicity).

Consider reading post 177 for starters. For over a year now, SO many have worked hard to show you your errors and the falsehoods you are spreading.... but I honestly wonder if you read these, or if you do, if you consider anything anyone writes to you (unless it docilicly submits to you)? Here at CH, we care about truth and each other. It's why the community has not just put you on their "ignore" list for staff simply banned you. When there is error, we try to help. RESPECTING truth and each other. Opinions are welcomed, but accompanied by the humility that conveys it is opinion. Some here have had the patience of a saint in working with you..... and shown much forgiveness. But it doesn't seem to make any difference... you at times admit to not even reading what is posted (often with a LOT of care and after much study)... and when your error is very obviously shown, your response is to either become MORE radical and baseless in your claim or to convey you didn't read it.

Brother, this is not a personal blog for any user. It's a discussion forum. And we hold that truth matters.




.
 
Last edited:

Origen

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2021
Messages
817
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
What’s your stance on the Apocrypha?
Should some of the Apocryphal books be included? Or do you side with the Protestant canon?
That is the difference between you and I. Which ever view one takes, I care about honesty, accuracy, and academic integrity. That is my goal.
 
Last edited:

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
32,649
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Could we PLEASE get back on topic? The topic is In what ways does the Apocrypha point to Jesus as Savior.
 

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Could we PLEASE get back on topic? The topic is In what ways does the Apocrypha point to Jesus as Savior.

Thank you. That’s something I’m much more interested in.
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
What’s your stance on the Apocrypha?
Should some of the Apocryphal books be included? Or do you side with the Protestant canon?
It's been said before, but neither the Catholic canon nor the Protestant canon includes all the books of the Apocrypha, both sides having expelled some of those books from the Bible during the 16th century.

That being the case, the whole of Christianity is wrong...if you think that all the Apocryphal books that had been carried in editions of the Bible until that time should have remained as they were.
 

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Could we PLEASE get back on topic? The topic is In what ways does the Apocrypha point to Jesus as Savior.

“The Jews and their priests have resolved that Simon should be their leader and high priest forever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise.”
-1 Maccabees 14:41 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Maccabees 14:41 - Common English Bible

This verse is pretty significant.

Why?

Until a trustworthy prophet should arise

Jewish rabbis today say that the last of the prophets were in the days of Ezra (Zechariah, Haggai, Malachi).

But we see here in 1 Maccabees, quite a number of years AFTER the days of Ezra, that they are looking forward to a prophet who is…

Coming Soon, to a Synagogue Near You!
 

pinacled

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 24, 2015
Messages
2,862
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
“The Jews and their priests have resolved that Simon should be their leader and high priest forever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise.”
-1 Maccabees 14:41 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Maccabees 14:41 - Common English Bible

This verse is pretty significant.

Why?

Until a trustworthy prophet should arise

Jewish rabbis today say that the last of the prophets were in the days of Ezra (Zechariah, Haggai, Malachi).

But we see here in 1 Maccabees, quite a number of years AFTER the days of Ezra, that they are looking forward to a prophet who is…

Coming Soon, to a Synagogue Near You!
I don't know of a single jew who is concerned about rome.
Grieving the spirit is next to blasphemy.

[16 The people in Rome, and those who were as far away as Sparta, learned that Jonathan had died, and they were all very sad.]

Sad is short for sadistic machinations.

[ 38 In light of all these things, King Demetrius confirmed him as high priest.]

A false lineage of preisthood in no way points toward a coming messiah.
 
Last edited:

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Could we PLEASE get back on topic? The topic is In what ways does the Apocrypha point to Jesus as Savior.


I think it was concluded .... a LONG time ago in this thread... nothing obvious. It's POSSIBLE to interpret some verses that way, but nothing undeniable. To be fair, the same can be said for some of the prophecies in the OT that Christians generally accept as such (MAINLY because the NT says they are prophecy, something we don't find for anything in any of the various lists of "apocrypha" books).




Of course, this is part of Nathan's agenda for every Christian to affirm that CHRISTIANITY has declared that some unidentified books (he calls them or unauthentic) are among The inerrant, fully/equally canonical, inscripturated words of God and must appear in every tome with "BIBLE" on the cover.

And it seems this thread flows from his Jewish Conspiracy Theory, that some (unknown, unidentified) Jews forced some (unknown, unidentified) Christians to rip out some books from the Bible because Christians claimed they contained prophecies of Jesus. Thus this thread. But his whole Jewish conspiracy theory makes no sense. IF some Jews forced some Christian to rip out books with prophecies of Jesus, the first book they would have demanded be ripped out would be ISAIAH, not some "them" books. Our brother has this opinion that Jesus-hating JEWS are the reason Christians ripped out these "them" books from the Christian Bible, but I agree with others here: This theory of his is not only ENTIRELY unsubstantiated but is pure nonsense. And silly since he's never established that CHRISTIANITY ever put "them" in so how could some Jews rip "them" out? Nonsense.


But again, Nathan has not shown that any "them" book contains an obvious prophecy of Jesus. And never does the NT quote from prophecy from a "them" book and declare it fulfilled by Jesus.





.
 
Last edited:

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I think it was concluded .... a LONG time ago in this thread... nothing obvious. It's POSSIBLE to interpret some verses that way, but nothing undeniable. To be fair, the same can be said for some of the prophecies in the OT that Christians generally accept as such (MAINLY because the NT says they are prophecy, something we don't find for anything in any of the various lists of "apocrypha" books).




Of course, this is part of Nathan's agenda for every Christian to affirm that CHRISTIANITY has declared that some unidentified books (he calls "them" or "apocrypha" are among The inerrant, fully/equally canonical, inscripturated words of God and must appear in every tome with "BIBLE" on the cover.

And it seems this thread flows from his Jewish Conspiracy theory, that some (unknown, unidentified) Jews forced some (unknown, unidentified) Christians to rip out some books from the Bible because Christians claimed they contained prophecies of Jesus. Thus this thread. But his whole anti-Jewish conspiracy theory makes no sense. IF the some Jews forced some Christian to rip out books with prophecies of Jesus, the first book they would have demanded be removed would be ISAIAH, not some unidentifed "them" books. Our brother has this opinion that the JEWS are thre reason some unidentified "they" ripped these "them" books out of the Christian Bible, but I agree with others here: This theory of his is not only ENTIRELY unsubstantiated but is pure nonsense. And silly since he's never established that CHRISTIANITY ever put "them" in so how could some Jews rip "them" out? Nonsense.





.
How is Wisdom 2 not a full blown prophetic chapter?
 

NathanH83

Well-known member
Joined
May 9, 2019
Messages
2,278
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
How is Wisdom 2 not a full blown prophetic chapter?

It’s very prophetic. It’s no wonder the Jews wanted to take it out.

And to think, Clement, who knew Paul personally, who Paul even mentions by name in Phillipians 4:3, Clement quotes from Wisdom as scripture in his letter to the Corinthians.

The most likely reason Clement accepted it as scripture, is because Paul did first.


This means Paul accepted Wisdom as scripture, as well as the churches of Rome and Corinth. And the only reason they did, is because Paul and the disciples did. And the only reason the disciples did, is because the Jews from before the time of Christ did. That’s logic.
They ask for direct empirical evidence, because they’re too afraid to think critically and use basic logic and reason.

And to think, the only reason we reject it today, is because the UNbelieving Jews tell us it doesn’t belong. And we just believe every word they say.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,927
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
And to think, Clement, who knew Paul personally, who Paul even mentions by name in Phillipians 4:3, Clement quotes from Wisdom as scripture in his letter to the Corinthians.

The most likely reason Clement accepted it as scripture, is because Paul did first.


This means Paul accepted Wisdom as scripture, as well as the churches of Rome and Corinth. And the only reason they did, is because Paul and the disciples did. And the only reason the disciples did, is because the Jews from before the time of Christ did. That’s logic.
They ask for direct empirical evidence, because they’re too afraid to think critically and use basic logic and reason.

And to think, the only reason we reject it today, is because the UNbelieving Jews tell us it doesn’t belong. And we just believe every word they say.


SO much confusion of your guesses with facts.....


1. The book commonly called "The Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians" NEVER says any human with the name of Clement wrote that book. The author is unidentifed. That Pope Clement wrote it is a CLAIM, a BELIEF that arose early, but no one knows who wrote the book. It is certainly POSSIBLE that Pope Clement did but this cannot be substantiated (possible does not equal fact). Your statement that Pope Clement wrote this book is a GUESS and not a fact. Your point that a guess = fact is simply not credible. I'll agree, you share this guess with many early Christians but it is a guess.


2. Yes, Paul mentions a person named "Clement" in Philippians 4:3. "Clement" was an extremely popular name. There is no way to know that the Clement he refers to in this verse is Pope Clement. You are guessing they are one and the same person. Guess does not equal fact. And of course, see #1, even if your guess was true, there's no substantiation that Pope Clement wrote that epistle. Your claim that Pope Clement is the same "Clement" that Paul mentions is just a GUESS, possible I agree, but possible does not equal fact.


3. I've read the letter. It never once mentions any book with "WISDOM" in the title. Maybe this is just like when you insisted that the Book of Hebrews mentions Second Maccabees - you went on and on and on, for a long time, INSISTING Hebrews mentioned that book (which all with eyes could see was a lie), you FINALLY admitted that actually it was mentioned by an unknown author in the 16th Century in a marginal note - not in Hebrews. You finally acknowledged the fact. Now, Clement does speak of PAUL's writings (although he never calls them Scripture or canonical) but nothing about any Book of Wisdom. Anyone MIGHT think something is echoing something also found in another book, but that doesn't mean it's referring to such - much less as Scripture and as fully canonical. The UNKNOWN author of this letter does not QUOTE from Wisdom OR call it "Scripture." Your claim is false.


4.
You offer NOTHING to prove that St. Paul accepted Wisdom as canonical Scripture. You offer NOTHING whatsoever because you have nothing whatsoever. You are just conveying a wild guess. Sorry, but your guesses do not equal fact. Your amazing claim that Paul regarded Wisdom as Scripture is not true.... it doesn't even qualify as a wild guess.


5. I reject your Jewish Conspiracy Theory for why "them" books aren't in the Bible you bought at the book store. You have offered NOTHING to support this crazy theory of yours because you have nothing to substantiate it. NOTHING. And it's NONSENSE. IF some unknown Jews demanded Christians rip out books that Christianity put into the Bible BECAUSE Christians thought they contained prophecies of Jesus, then the first book they would have required Christians rip out would be ISAIAH, and it's still there. This conspiracy theory of yours is not only ENTIRELY, completely unsubstantiated but just silly.





.
 
Last edited:

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
SO much confusion of your guesses with facts.....


1. The book commonly called "The Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians" NEVER says any human with the name of Clement wrote that book. The author is unidentifed. That Pope Clement wrote it is a CLAIM, a BELIEF that arose early, but no one knows who wrote the book. It is certainly POSSIBLE that Pope Clement did but this cannot be substantiated (possible does not equal fact). Your statement that Pope Clement wrote this book is a GUESS and not a fact. Your point that a guess = fact is simply not credible. I'll agree, you share this guess with many early Christians but it is a guess.


2. Yes, Paul mentions a person named "Clement" in Philippians 4:3. "Clement" was an extremely popular name. There is no way to know that the Clement he refers to in this verse is Pope Clement. You are guessing they are one and the same person. Guess does not equal fact. And of course, see #1, even if your guess was true, there's no substantiation that Pope Clement wrote that epistle. Your claim that Pope Clement is the same "Clement" that Paul mentions is just a GUESS, possible I agree, but possible does not equal fact.


3. I've read the letter. It never once mentions any book with "WISDOM" in the title. Maybe this is just like when you insisted that the Book of Hebrews mentions Second Maccabees - you went on and on and on, for a long time, INSISTING Hebrews mentioned that book (which all with eyes could see was a lie), you FINALLY admitted that actually it was mentioned by an unknown author in the 16th Century in a marginal note - not in Hebrews. You finally acknowledged the fact. Now, Clement does speak of PAUL's writings (although he never calls them Scripture or canonical) but nothing about any Book of Wisdom. Anyone MIGHT think something is echoing something also found in another book, but that doesn't mean it's referring to such - much less as Scripture and as fully canonical. The UNKNOWN author of this letter does not QUOTE from Wisdom OR call it "Scripture." Your claim is false.


4.
You offer NOTHING to prove that St. Paul accepted Wisdom as canonical Scripture. You offer NOTHING whatsoever because you have nothing whatsoever. You are just conveying a wild guess. Sorry, but your guesses do not equal fact. Your amazing claim that Paul regarded Wisdom as Scripture is not true.... it doesn't even qualify as a wild guess.


5. I reject your Jewish Conspiracy Theory for why "them" books aren't in the Bible you bought at the book store. You have offered NOTHING to support this crazy theory of yours because you have nothing to substantiate it. NOTHING. And it's NONSENSE. IF some unknown Jews demanded Christians rip out books that Christianity put into the Bible BECAUSE Christians thought they contained prophecies of Jesus, then the first book they would have required Christians rip out would be ISAIAH, and it's still there. This conspiracy theory of yours is not only ENTIRELY, completely unsubstantiated but just silly.





.
What about Wisdom 2? Prophetic or utterly uninspired?
 

Origen

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2021
Messages
817
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
SO much confusion of your guesses with facts.....

1. The book commonly called "The Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians" NEVER says any human with the name of Clement wrote that book. The author is unidentifed. That Pope Clement wrote it is a CLAIM, a BELIEF that arose early, but no one knows who wrote the book. It is certainly POSSIBLE that Pope Clement did but this cannot be substantiated (possible does not equal fact). Your statement that Pope Clement wrote this book is a GUESS and not a fact. Your point that a guess = fact is simply not credible. I'll agree, you share this guess with many early Christians but it is a guess.

2. Yes, Paul mentions a person named "Clement" in Philippians 4:3. "Clement" was an extremely popular name. There is no way to know that the Clement he refers to in this verse is Pope Clement. You are guessing they are one and the same person. Guess does not equal fact. And of course, see #1, even if your guess was true, there's no substantiation that Pope Clement wrote that epistle. Your claim that Pope Clement is same "Clement" that Paul mentions is just a GUESS and not fact.

3. I've read the letter. It never once mentions any book with "WISDOM" in the title. Maybe this is just like when you insisted that the Book of Hebrews mentions Second Maccabees - you went on and on and on, for a long time, INSISTING Hebrews mentioned that book (which all with eyes could see was a lie), you FINALLY admitted that actually it was mentioned by an unknown author in the 16th Century in a marginal note - not in Hebrews. You finally acknowledged the fact. Now, Clement does speak of PAUL's writings (although he never calls them Scripture or canonical) but nothing about any Book of Wisdom. Anyone MIGHT think something is echoing something also found in another book, but that doesn't mean it's referring to such - much less as Scripture and as fully canonical. The UNKNOWN author of this letter does not QUOTE from Wisdom OR call it "Scripture." You are not conveying truth.

4.
You offer NOTHING to prove that St. Paul accepted Wisdom as canonical Scripture. You offer nothing whatsoever because you have nothing whatsoever. You are just conveying a wild guess. Sorry, but your guesses do not equal fact. Your amazing claiml that Paul regarded Wisdom as Scripture doesn't even qualify as a wild guess. It's not fact.

5. I reject your Jewish Conspiracy Theory for why "them" books aren't in the Bible you bought at the book store. You have offered NOTHING to support this crazy theory of yours because you have nothing to substantiate it. NOTHING. And it's NONSENSE. IF some unknown Jews demanded Christians rip out books that Christianity put into the Bible BECAUSE Christians thought they contained prophecies of Jesus, then the first book they would have required Christians rip out would be ISAIAH, and it's still there. This conspiracy theory of yours is not only ENTIRELY, completely unsubstantiated but just silly.
Well done! You have provided a complete refutation of his totally speculative and fallacious claims.
 
Last edited:

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Again, are these following passages prophetic of Jesus Christ or are the passages utterly uninspired?

(For the ungodly said, reasoning with themselves...)

...Therefore let us lie in wait for the righteous; because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings: he upbraideth us with our offending the law, and objecteth to our infamy the transgressings of our education.
He professeth to have the knowledge of God: and he calleth himself the child of the Lord. He was made to reprove our thoughts. He is grievous unto us even to behold: for his life is not like other men's, his ways are of another fashion. We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, and maketh his boast that God is his father. Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him. For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies. Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience. Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected. Such things they did imagine, and were deceived: for their own wickedness hath blinded them. As for the mysteries of God, they knew them not: neither hoped they for the wages of righteousness, nor discerned a reward for blameless souls. For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity. Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that do hold of his side do find it.
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
What's the hold up? ;)
80128a6bcc5ddf92e374732949280f21.jpg
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,760
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
It's all been said, folks--and very well. Nothing will be accomplished by letting this go around in the same circle any further. So, let's resolve not to post more on this particular thread or on any other ones dealing with the same subject.

That will allow for everyone to work on more productive discussions. We need some!

Consider it. And "Thank you" for your consideration.
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
40
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
It's all been said, folks--and very well. Nothing will be accomplished by letting this go around in the same circle any further. So, let's resolve not to post more on this particular thread or on any other ones dealing with the same subject.

That will allow for everyone to work on more productive discussions. We need some!

Consider it. And "Thank you" for your consideration.
I just wanted someone to answer a question. The pic was just a humorous attempt to get someone's attention, the question pertains to the OP.
But if you want rile up the gang to abandon the thread then by all means do what you feel is right.

Geesh just wanted to lighten the mood here :)
 
Top Bottom