In U.S.A., Will God destroy the righteous with the wicked?

[Lees]

Please, no crawdads need apply...I mean reply.

In the greatest judgement God has yet to inact upon the earth, the flood, no righteous, no people of God died. (Gen. 7:1) Thus God delivered the righteous Noah with his family.

In Sodom and Gomorrah God delivered just Lot with his family save his wife. (Gen. 19:22) (II Peter 2:7-9)

Abraham, no doubt knowing God's favor to Noah and his family, brought this to God's attention, when he (Abraham) knew God would destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, in trying to save his nephew Lot. (Gen. 18:23) "Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?"

And what of Jesus's promise and warning to His people concerning their persecution and the coming judgement upon Jerusalem after His death. (Luke 21:14-21) He warned them that when they see Jerusalem surrounded to flee to the mountains. (Luke 21:21) Strange language since you are surrounded. Yet that is exactly what occurred.

For we are told by historians that the Roman Army surrounded Jerusalem and then without any reason known, they withdrew. And it was during this withdraw that the believers in Christ remembered His word and fled to the mountains. They took refuge in Pella beyond the Jordan and no Christian died in Jerusalem as a result.

Isn't that something? Praise to God. So, this begs the question, when God destroys America, what will happen to the Christians? Will we be delivered? Or will we be destroyed along with the unbelieving nation of America? And there are many Christians in America.

I believe the event known as the 'Rapture' will bring the judgement of God upon America as well as the deliverance of His people, the Christians. It will be a deliverance to the Christians because we are removed from America and what is about to take place. It will be a judgement against America as so many Christians in all walks and levels of society are removed causing the total chaos to follow. America will be destroyed.

Lees

 

[atpollard]

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Where is this rapture thing in the Bible?

 

[Lees]

Where is this rapture thing in the Bible?

The two most used verses are (1 Thess. 4:14-18) and (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

Lees

 

[Fritz Kobus]

The two most used verses are (1 Thess. 4:14-18) and (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

Lees

So by rapture we basically are talking about the resurrection of all the saints at the end of time.

 

[Joshua1Eight]

That’s what happened on September 11th

 

[Lees]

So by rapture we basically are talking about the resurrection of all the saints at the end of time.

No. The Rapture involves the Church.

Lees

 

[Fritz Kobus]

No. The Rapture involves the Church.

Lees

Well I always understood that the saints are the Church. I know the Catholics seem to relegate saint to special people, but the Bible says all believers are saints. Therefore, Saint = Christian.

 

[Lees]

Well I always understood that the saints are the Church. I know the Catholics seem to relegate saint to special people, but the Bible says all believers are saints. Therefore, Saint = Christian.

All believers are saints. Not all believers/saints are the Church.

The Rapture involves the Church.

Lees

 

[Albion]

Well I always understood that the saints are the Church. I know the Catholics seem to relegate saint to special people, but the Bible says all believers are saints. Therefore, Saint = Christian.

That's a familiar use of the word, Fritz, but in this case I think the member was making a distinction between "the Church," by which he meant Christians then alive, and the "saints," referring to all the saved whether alive at the time of the Rapture or not. Of course, the conventional use of the term, "the Church," by Christians refers to all the saved, whether living or dead.

P. S. I've noticed that there is an intentional use around here of words that the writer prefers, whether or not the reader will understand the usage the same way...and then when an explanation is requested, to clarify the point as little as possible.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

All believers are saints. Not all believers/saints are the Church.

The Rapture involves the Church.

Lees

Oh but they are since the true church, or sometimes called the invisible church, should include all believers of all time regardless if they are on earth or in Heaven. The Church is the Body of Christ and I would hate to think the Body is separated into two different pieces.

 

[Lees]

Oh but they are since the true church, or sometimes called the invisible church, should include all believers of all time regardless if they are on earth or in Heaven. The Church is the Body of Christ and I would hate to think the Body is separated into two different pieces.

Why? Why should all believers of all time be part of the Church?

Yes, the Church is the Body of Christ. And it is not separated. That doesn't make all believers/all saints of all time part of the Church.

Lees

 

[atpollard]

[1Th 4:15-17 NASB95] 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of [the] archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[Lees]

[1Th 4:15-17 NASB95] 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of [the] archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Good verse. What is your point?

Lees

 

[atpollard]

Good verse. What is your point?

Lees

All believers are saints.
Not all believers/saints are the Church.
The Rapture involves the Church.

[1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 ]

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of [the] archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.​

My point is that “we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.”

• FIRST … the dead in Christ will rise
• THEN … we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds
• THEREFORE ALL WILL … meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

This is the rapture of the Church … what believer/Saint is excluded if neither the dead nor the living are excluded?

 

[Lees]

[1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 ]

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of [the] archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.​

My point is that “we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.”

• FIRST … the dead in Christ will rise
• THEN … we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds
• THEREFORE ALL WILL … meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

This is the rapture of the Church … what believer/Saint is excluded if neither the dead nor the living are excluded?

Yes, (1 Thess. 4:15-17) speak to the Rapture of the Church.

The dead in Christ are the Christians, and Christians only.

The Jews prior to the Church are not part of the Rapture. Only the dead in Christ and the living in Christ make up the Church.

The resurrection of the Jews occurs at the end of the Tribulation. (Dan. 12:1-2).

Lees

 

[SetFree]

Sounds like confusion from man's Pre-trib Rapture Theory, a doctrine not written in God's Word, and first taught by Edward Irving and John Darby in 1830's Great Britain.

Even Abraham is a member of Christ's Church. All believers on The Gospel of Jesus Christ are, regardless if they are Israelite believers or Gentile believers, asleep or still alive (Galatians 3:28-29).

All the dead are raised on the day of Christ's future return. And all still alive will be 'changed' on that day too. This is the very matter John quoted Jesus about in John 5:28-29 about the day of His future return. At that time all the dead are raised, and either go into the resurrection of life, or into the resurrection of damnation. The Old Testament prophets show about unsaved nations in that future world, just as the Revelation 20 chapter does also.

So the resurrection even on the day of Christ's return is for all... the dead.

Why then is that John 5:28-29 Scripture by Lord Jesus so often just bypassed? It's because of men's doctrine that does not understand the resurrection, nor about "the dead" of Revelation 20:5 which they think are still dead in the grave throughout the 1,000 years, and then raised to stand in judgement after the 1,000 years at God's Great White Throne Judgment. Even Lord Jesus showed us about the idea of the dead being also a metaphor for those who are 'spiritually dead' inside (their souls), like what He said about the blind Pharisees being like whited tombs on the outside which appear beautiful, but inside are full of dead men's bones (Matthew 23:27).

The Rev.20:5 "dead" simply mean the unsaved nations, the spiritually dead, not yet 'born again' through Jesus Christ.

When Lord Jesus returns, that will be the time God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth, like Apostle Peter said in 2 Peter 3. It will be that future event on the "day of the Lord" that will surprise... the whole world, and when the wicked will be shocked to see Jesus coming in the clouds. It won't be no secret rapture. The wicked will see Jesus coming like the Scripture teaches, and they will be in an "Uh, oh!" state when they see Him in the clouds.

What that means is the end of the things of this present world, and our time in this flesh will be over. The type body of the world to come is a resurrection type body, even for the wicked that are left (remember the "resurrection of damnation" Jesus said?). In 1 Corinthians 15, another Bible Scripture many have difficulty with, Paul showed the resurrection body type is a "spiritual body". That don't mean another flesh and blood body like today's flesh body, but a body made up of spirit.