If paedobaptism were taught...

[Lamb]

At the risk of derailing your arguments with actual Scripture ...

[Act 2:36-42 NASB]
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 Now when they heard [this,] they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. 42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

Here is the context.
Where does it say that the physical act of baptism (sprinkling or immersion with/in water) removes sins?
Someone please exegete it for me.

Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins

Sins that are forgiven are remembered no more by God.

 

[atpollard]

Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins

Sins that are forgiven are remembered no more by God.

1. How do we know that the “REPENT” does not remove sins and the “BE BAPTIZED” grants the Holy Spirit?
2. How do we know that both “REPENT” and “BE BAPTIZED” are not required to remove sins?
3. How do we know that the sins were not removed when their “HEARTS” were “PIERCED” and “for the forgiveness of sins” is not the reason why they are repenting and being baptized?
4. How do we know that “in the name of Jesus” is not the critical power that removes sin and repenting and baptism are part of ritual cleansing for this specific Jewish audience for their literal part in rejecting their literal messiah under the Law?

See, you have only presented your opinion of one possible interpretation of these verses. As have others that treat their opinion as if they have proven something. Proof requires actually doing the work of really proving what you claim from scripture is the correct opinion, not merely an opinion.

(Lam, I am sorry that you responded to my post. There were others far more arrogant in their claims of PROVING something by just listing a verse that deserved this response more than you did. It is to them that I issued the original challenge and dedicate this response. Stop calling each other liars and actually PROVE your case from scripture if you think you can.)

In essentials unity.
In non-essentials liberty.
In all things charity.
(Motto of the Moravian Church)

 

[Lamb]

1. How do we know that the “REPENT” does not remove sins and the “BE BAPTIZED” grants the Holy Spirit?
2. How do we know that both “REPENT” and “BE BAPTIZED” are not required to remove sins?
3. How do we know that the sins were not removed when their “HEARTS” were “PIERCED” and “for the forgiveness of sins” is not the reason why they are repenting and being baptized?
4. How do we know that “in the name of Jesus” is not the critical power that removes sin and repenting and baptism are part of ritual cleansing for this specific Jewish audience for their literal part in rejecting their literal messiah under the Law?

See, you have only presented your opinion of one possible interpretation of these verses. As have others that treat their opinion as if they have proven something. Proof requires actually doing the work of really proving what you claim from scripture is the correct opinion, not merely an opinion.

(Lam, I am sorry that you responded to my post. There were others far more arrogant in their claims of PROVING something by just listing a verse that deserved this response more than you did. It is to them that I issued the original challenge and dedicate this response. Stop calling each other liars and actually PROVE your case from scripture if you think you can.)

In essentials unity.
In non-essentials liberty.
In all things charity.
(Motto of the Moravian Church)

You asked a lot of questions by separating things that actually all belong together.

The forgiveness of sins is a connection to the cross. That's where our forgiveness was won. Now from there we look to how God gives us that forgiveness because natural man thinks the cross is foolishness. We need God to get us to believe in the cross. So what does He do? He grants us repentance, He teaches us His Law to accuse us and gives us the Gospel by His word and that is found in the scriptures but also in the waters of baptism. God is never stingy with His forgiveness but it doesn't come from anything we do...it's always because of His love and mercy for us, so much that He died on a cross for our forgiveness of sins.

 

[Andrew]

At the risk of derailing your arguments with actual Scripture ...

Here is the context:


Acts 2:36-42
[NASB]
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 Now when they heard [this,] they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. 42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

[NKJV]
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
37 Now when they heard [this], they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." 40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation." 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them]. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.

[NLT]
36 "So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!"
37 Peter's words pierced their hearts, and they said to him and to the other apostles, "Brothers, what should we do?" 38 Peter replied, "Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 This promise is to you, and to your children, and even to the Gentiles--all who have been called by the Lord our God." 40 Then Peter continued preaching for a long time, strongly urging all his listeners, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation!" 41 Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church that day--about 3,000 in all. 42 All the believers devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, and to fellowship, and to sharing in meals (including the Lord's Supper), and to prayer.

[NIV]
36 "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah."
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call." 40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. 42 They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.


Where does it say that the physical act of baptism (sprinkling or immersion with/in water) removes sins?
Someone please exegete it for me.

Context seems to suggest that the gospel is the water that baptizes us, this sounds like the baptism of the Holy Spirit which in my understanding does not really involve water but living waters aka the blessed Word that gives us everlasting life..
Repent and be (in doing so) baptised.
My question is why would it be such a bad idea if we still use water? Its not like it takes away from the word but it does give one a feeling that the sins have been washed away, like a refreshment of life, for we all know that we do not practise this so others may witness a transformation but as an act of following/imitating Jesus who was baptise even though HE didn't do it for remission of HIS sins (he was Sinless) but for those who are baptised in HIS name WE take part in HIS baptism and Repenting means to turn to God and not to the carnal self... In the end we have one baptism and I am certain it is what John and the Apostles all agreed on, that He has come to baptise us with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lamb]

Context seems to suggest that the gospel is the water that baptizes us, this sounds like the baptism of the Holy Spirit which in my understanding does not really involve water but living waters aka the blessed Word that gives us everlasting life..
Repent and be (in doing so) baptised.
My question is why would it be such a bad idea if we still use water? Its not like it takes away from the word but it does give one a feeling that the sins have been washed away, like a refreshment of life, for we all know that we do not practise this so others may witness a transformation but as an act of following/imitating Jesus who was baptise even though HE didn't do it for remission of HIS sins (he was Sinless) but for those who are baptised in HIS name WE take part in HIS baptism and Repenting means to turn to God and not to the carnal self... In the end we have one baptism and I am certain it is what John and the Apostles all agreed on, that He has come to baptise us with the Holy Spirit.

As you say there is one baptism. It includes water and the reason for that is if you look through all of scripture you'll see how often God uses earthly means to deliver something to man. Think about the serpent on the pole that Moses held up ...that was the means God used and He attached the promise of giving life to those that looked at it. It wasn't their looking that saved them, it was God's mercy when He gave the promise to save them. Same thing with baptism. The water does nothing just like the serpent did nothing. But it's a means that God has chosen to use to deliver His promises to us by His great love and mercy for us. I have more examples of means someplace on this site if you need them.

 

[Andrew]

As you say there is one baptism. It includes water and the reason for that is if you look through all of scripture you'll see how often God uses earthly means to deliver something to man. Think about the serpent on the pole that Moses held up ...that was the means God used and He attached the promise of giving life to those that looked at it. It wasn't their looking that saved them, it was God's mercy when He gave the promise to save them. Same thing with baptism. The water does nothing just like the serpent did nothing. But it's a means that God has chosen to use to deliver His promises to us by His great love and mercy for us. I have more examples of means someplace on this site if you need them.

It's one of the reasons I asked "why is water such a bad thing if it doesn't take away from the word?" I asked that out of defense, I've been baptised twice by water lol and I'm pro believers baptism but I don't have anything against infant baptism as long as they are raised on gospel teachings.
Another one of my defenses is that we will come in contact with water daily, it refreshes and cleanses and it shouldn't ever be considered some pagan element! The human body is mostly water, it's not a man made image, its not a snake on a stick, its simply water and there should be a wanting to be dipped in water in the Name, its not going to bite or anything lol

 

[MennoSota]

From a Lutheran apologist. Notice no scriptural support.

Why baptism?

Because we are promised in the waters of baptism that behaviors that could consign us to guilt, condemnation and shame in this life are stripped of that power. No string can be connected between what we have done, or worse, that might come our way, and the presence of pain. Christ promises to give freedom in the holy flood.*A child is baptized under the waters and “dirt” is washed off—and all prior to playing in the mud!

There is more.

We are given the hope of what our Apostles’ Creed calls “the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.” The babies and children we bring to the font will, we pray, have years and years of life. But when the last darkness comes, there, like a pillar of fire, is the hope: “after my skin has been thus destroyed, then in my flesh I shall see God” (Job 19:26). So we baptize those babies—as well as anyone else starving for the promise—to give them light to see as ashes come to ashes, dust comes to dust.

There is more.

In baptism we are grafted into a family—the church, the body of Christ, “the communion of saints.” We have a whole body around and about us, our brothers and sisters, the baptized. They belong to us as we to them. They are called to whisper the promise that we are one with each other even when life divides.

Why baptize little ones? For the same reason all the saints are invited to come down to the waters: so we might come to know Christ and his gifts for what they are—our own, through all that life might bring.

This teaching sets up children and parents to imagine they are saved when, in fact, they are still dead in their trespasses and sins.
https://www.livinglutheran.org/2017/01/why-infant-baptism/

 

[Lamb]

It's one of the reasons I asked "why is water such a bad thing if it doesn't take away from the word?" I asked that out of defense, I've been baptised twice by water lol and I'm pro believers baptism but I don't have anything against infant baptism as long as they are raised on gospel teachings.
Another one of my defenses is that we will come in contact with water daily, it refreshes and cleanses and it shouldn't ever be considered some pagan element! The human body is mostly water, it's not a man made image, its not a snake on a stick, its simply water and there should be a wanting to be dipped in water in the Name, its not going to bite or anything lol

Well the water doesn't have any special powers. Jesus didn't have to use mud to give a blind man sight now did He? But He chose that earthly means to bring about an action. God does that numerous times throughout scripture and to ignore it ignores how God operates.

 

[Bluezone777]

From a Lutheran apologist. Notice no scriptural support.

This teaching sets up children and parents to imagine they are saved when, in fact, they are still dead in their trespasses and sins.
https://www.livinglutheran.org/2017/01/why-infant-baptism/

It's probably why this and other reasons why this world is full of people who profess to be born again yet live a lifestyle of continual rebellion and disobedience to God yet no one questions this and instead goes out of their way to explain away how one can be both Christian and continually carnal all the days of their life after having been "saved". My belief on the matter is if someone has not demonstrated any evidence that they have repented of their sin then they should not be baptized and giving the appearance that they are a child of God when they live like a child of the devil. Evidence of repentance can be seen or otherwise the command to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith would not have been given.

As for that article, I am impressed someone can go so long on a matter of the bible without actually quoting any of it to actually demonstrate where scripture and their statements on it line up. When someone insists on not connecting the Bible to their teaching then it's highly likely that teaching is false. I would figure a teacher would deem it important not only for the people being taught to not only know what the answers are but how they came to those answers. so they could show it to another if asked. Why would a teacher want people who can only parrot answers head from another with no way of explaining why they chose that answer or how they could come to that conclusion?

 

[Josiah]

Some notes.....


1. NO ONE promotes or defends some dogma of "Thou art forbidden to baptize any who art not an infant." There is no dogma of Paedobaptism. The whole DOGMA prohibitions due to age is by the Anabaptists and those who echo their Tradition on this.


2. The historic, ecumenical view has no dogmatic mandates or prohibition on Baptism because of age.


3. The majority of Christians (100% before the Anabaptists in the 16th Century) held that there is no dogmatic prohibition BECAUSE of age, race, color, nationality, language, etc. simply because they could not find any such dogmatic prohibition because of such in the Bible or from anywhere for that matter until an Anabaptist in the 16th Century. The vast majority don't accept the Jews are excluded from the Commandment "Thou shall not kill" for the exact same reason; they just can't find that individual exemption stated in Scripture. Ain't rocket science. Ain't that complicated.


I have given the historic, ecumenical view on Baptism .... not to "PROVE" anything or convince anyone but because I was asked to simply convey the position. So I did. Asking no one to agree or accept. No one noticed (very few read). And that's okay; but the other (and MUCH older and MUCH more broadly accepted) view on this has been given. By several (not just myself). IMO, such has never really been engaged (again, okay). Here is my latest attempt, which I TRIED to convey humbly, accurately and "cleanly" https://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6945-Lutheran-Perspective-on-Baptism



My $0.01


-Josiah




.

 

[Lamb]

It's probably why this and other reasons why this world is full of people who profess to be born again yet live a lifestyle of continual rebellion and disobedience to God yet no one questions this and instead goes out of their way to explain away how one can be both Christian and continually carnal all the days of their life after having been "saved". My belief on the matter is if someone has not demonstrated any evidence that they have repented of their sin then they should not be baptized and giving the appearance that they are a child of God when they live like a child of the devil. Evidence of repentance can be seen or otherwise the command to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith would not have been given.

As for that article, I am impressed someone can go so long on a matter of the bible without actually quoting any of it to actually demonstrate where scripture and their statements on it line up. When someone insists on not connecting the Bible to their teaching then it's highly likely that teaching is false. I would figure a teacher would deem it important not only for the people being taught to not only know what the answers are but how they came to those answers. so they could show it to another if asked. Why would a teacher want people who can only parrot answers head from another with no way of explaining why they chose that answer or how they could come to that conclusion?

If a man came to faith by reading the bible and then later on began to commit a lot of sins...we wouldn't say that the scriptures couldn't have given him faith because look at him, he's sinning. Now if this man is told that he's sinning and he repents we admit that God's word gave him faith through the scriptures and that's easy to say, right? But for those who don't see God's grace in the waters of baptism you have a difficult time seeing that it's still faith being given and people can and do fall away. And some return. Just like the man who sinned a lot and then was brought back. It's all because of God's working in us.

 

[MennoSota]

If a man came to faith by reading the bible and then later on began to commit a lot of sins...we wouldn't say that the scriptures couldn't have given him faith because look at him, he's sinning. Now if this man is told that he's sinning and he repents we admit that God's word gave him faith through the scriptures and that's easy to say, right? But for those who don't see God's grace in the waters of baptism you have a difficult time seeing that it's still faith being given and people can and do fall away. And some return. Just like the man who sinned a lot and then was brought back. It's all because of God's working in us.

The Bible doesn't see grace given in the waters of baptism. Only church dogma sees such a thing.
God's grace comes before baptism ever takes place.
The mis-interpretation of Acts 2:38 has been explained. Nowhere else in scripture is such a thing even implied.
The person I quoted showed zero scripture, which means they were leaning entirely on their digma, taught by their church.

 

[MennoSota]

From an ELCA pdf:

What do Lutherans believe about Baptism?
Why do Lutherans baptize infants?
Baptism
In Holy Baptism, God liberates us from sin and death by joining us to the death
and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Born children of a fallen humanity, in
the baptismal waters we become God’s reborn children and inherit eternal
life. By water and the Holy Spirit we are made members of the Church, which is
Christ’s body. As we live with him and with his people, we grow in faith, love and obedience to God’s will.
ELCA Service of Holy Baptism (paraphrased), Lutheran Book of Worship pg 121.
God’s act, Jesus’ command
In this beginning of the ELCA baptismal service, we acknowledge first that Baptism is God’s act, God’s
initiative and God’s gift. It connects us to Jesus, the Church and eternal life. That is fundamental to ELCA
Lutherans’ baptismal theology.
Lutherans baptize in response to Jesus directing his disciples to, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19). We believe
that this Great Commission is the motivator for Christian Baptism, as distinct from the baptism of John the
Baptist.
The Church and infant baptism
ELCA Lutherans believe that Baptism is the Church’s entry rite. Baptism brings us into the Church, Christ’s
living body on earth. As the First Century church baptized whole families,
including infants, so do Lutherans. In fact, usually ELCA Lutherans bring their
infants to the baptismal font within the first months – even weeks – of a child’s
life. "The fact that circumcision (which occurred on an infant’s eighth day) was
replaced by Baptism in Jewish-Christian circles may indicate that infant baptism
was assumed from the first" ("Baptism" by Martin Marty).
ELCA theologian Martin E. Marty says that our view of Baptism "... is not only
compatible with but actually draws strength from the practice of infant
baptism. If baptism is part of what God does, not of what we do….If in
Baptism it is Christ who brings the child, holds it in his arms, and receives it as
a member of his body. Upholding the ancient church’s practice of baptizing
infants, Luther argued that if, "... Baptism is made dependent on faith, we
(would) scarcely ever arrive at the assurance of having sufficient faith and thus
at the validity of our Baptism. ... Baptism ... points to the fact that salvation
comes only from God."
Sacramental baptism – Word and water
Baptism is one of the two sacraments that mark Lutheran theology and practice, the other being The Eucharist
(or Holy Communion). We believe both to have been instituted by Jesus.
Martin Luther defined sacraments as actions whose outward signs point to God’s command and promise. They
contain two things:
the Word of God that makes the action or elements a sacrament
an outward sign - which in Baptism is the ancient element, the ‘stuff’ of life, water
Luther said, "... when the Word accompanies the water, Baptism is valid, even though faith be lacking. For my
faith does not constitute Baptism, but receives it."
Joseph Sittler has said this, "A person is drawn to water - to an ocean, a river or a stream - because there is
something in him that knows that this is from whence he came. One thinks of the percentage of water in our
bodies, the need for water to sustain earthly life, water’s cleansing properties, and the Genesis account that at
creation "a wind from God swept over the face of the water. Then God said, ‘let there be light; ...’" (Personal
notes from a conversation with Joseph Sittler.)
"Word meant the activity and voice of God in the Old Testament. ... The Word, says Luther, is
everything. Without it - and no Christian would deny this - the water is nothing and Baptism does not exist. ...
Connection with the Word thus means that Baptism relates a person to the whole plan of God. ... This is why
the ancient baptismal commands are of considerable importance to moderns who stand in the same need. ... ‘In
the name of the Father’ relates Baptism to the whole of creation - and its water; ‘in the name of the Son’ calls to
mind the whole personal relation of the baptized community to God in Christ; and ‘in the name of the Holy
Spirit’ means that God takes the initiative, turning the (Word) into Spirit and creating the church."
Forgiveness of sin and salvation
Luther’s Large Catechism (IV, 83) instructs that Baptism "overcomes and takes away sin." Marty suggests that
the water of the old creation and the Word of the new achieve the new creation in human beings. Sin is washed
away, the sinner is ‘drowned,’ the old self is shattered, "helpless as a crying infant with empty hands and
uninformed head and no report card at all." This time, newness comes not by the breath of God, as at
creation, but by the death of Christ.
ELCA Lutherans believe that baptism addresses itself to the question of salvation. In God’s gift of Baptism we
are assured the forgiveness of sins to live a free, responsible and joyful life - in order that we might be saved
everlastingly. With Luther we can say that, "No greater jewel ... can adorn our body and soul than Baptism, for
through it we obtain perfect holiness and salvation, which no other kind of life and no work on earth can
acquire." Baptism is truly God’s gift, drawing us into Christ’s church and bestowing upon us forgiveness of sins
and the promise of eternal life. In it, we are marked by the cross of Christ forever. The ELCA Service of Holy
Baptism, Lutheran Book of Worship, pg 124, includes these words spoken at your child’s baptism:
"... Child of God,
you have been sealed by the Holy Spirit
and marked with the cross of Christ
forever."
Adapted from materials at www.elca.org
Martin E. Marty, "Baptism," Muhlenberg Press (now Augsburg Fortress Publishers), 1977

 

[MennoSota]

From an ELCA pdf:

What do Lutherans believe about Baptism?
Why do Lutherans baptize infants?
Baptism
In Holy Baptism, God liberates us from sin and death by joining us to the death
and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Born children of a fallen humanity, in
the baptismal waters we become God’s reborn children and inherit eternal
life. By water and the Holy Spirit we are made members of the Church, which is
Christ’s body. As we live with him and with his people, we grow in faith, love and obedience to God’s will.
ELCA Service of Holy Baptism (paraphrased), Lutheran Book of Worship pg 121.
God’s act, Jesus’ command
In this beginning of the ELCA baptismal service, we acknowledge first that Baptism is God’s act, God’s
initiative and God’s gift. It connects us to Jesus, the Church and eternal life. That is fundamental to ELCA
Lutherans’ baptismal theology.
Lutherans baptize in response to Jesus directing his disciples to, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19). We believe
that this Great Commission is the motivator for Christian Baptism, as distinct from the baptism of John the
Baptist.
The Church and infant baptism
ELCA Lutherans believe that Baptism is the Church’s entry rite. Baptism brings us into the Church, Christ’s
living body on earth. As the First Century church baptized whole families,
including infants, so do Lutherans. In fact, usually ELCA Lutherans bring their
infants to the baptismal font within the first months – even weeks – of a child’s
life. "The fact that circumcision (which occurred on an infant’s eighth day) was
replaced by Baptism in Jewish-Christian circles may indicate that infant baptism
was assumed from the first" ("Baptism" by Martin Marty).
ELCA theologian Martin E. Marty says that our view of Baptism "... is not only
compatible with but actually draws strength from the practice of infant
baptism. If baptism is part of what God does, not of what we do….If in
Baptism it is Christ who brings the child, holds it in his arms, and receives it as
a member of his body. Upholding the ancient church’s practice of baptizing
infants, Luther argued that if, "... Baptism is made dependent on faith, we
(would) scarcely ever arrive at the assurance of having sufficient faith and thus
at the validity of our Baptism. ... Baptism ... points to the fact that salvation
comes only from God."
Sacramental baptism – Word and water
Baptism is one of the two sacraments that mark Lutheran theology and practice, the other being The Eucharist
(or Holy Communion). We believe both to have been instituted by Jesus.
Martin Luther defined sacraments as actions whose outward signs point to God’s command and promise. They
contain two things:
the Word of God that makes the action or elements a sacrament
an outward sign - which in Baptism is the ancient element, the ‘stuff’ of life, water
Luther said, "... when the Word accompanies the water, Baptism is valid, even though faith be lacking. For my
faith does not constitute Baptism, but receives it."
Joseph Sittler has said this, "A person is drawn to water - to an ocean, a river or a stream - because there is
something in him that knows that this is from whence he came. One thinks of the percentage of water in our
bodies, the need for water to sustain earthly life, water’s cleansing properties, and the Genesis account that at
creation "a wind from God swept over the face of the water. Then God said, ‘let there be light; ...’" (Personal
notes from a conversation with Joseph Sittler.)
"Word meant the activity and voice of God in the Old Testament. ... The Word, says Luther, is
everything. Without it - and no Christian would deny this - the water is nothing and Baptism does not exist. ...
Connection with the Word thus means that Baptism relates a person to the whole plan of God. ... This is why
the ancient baptismal commands are of considerable importance to moderns who stand in the same need. ... ‘In
the name of the Father’ relates Baptism to the whole of creation - and its water; ‘in the name of the Son’ calls to
mind the whole personal relation of the baptized community to God in Christ; and ‘in the name of the Holy
Spirit’ means that God takes the initiative, turning the (Word) into Spirit and creating the church."
Forgiveness of sin and salvation
Luther’s Large Catechism (IV, 83) instructs that Baptism "overcomes and takes away sin." Marty suggests that
the water of the old creation and the Word of the new achieve the new creation in human beings. Sin is washed
away, the sinner is ‘drowned,’ the old self is shattered, "helpless as a crying infant with empty hands and
uninformed head and no report card at all." This time, newness comes not by the breath of God, as at
creation, but by the death of Christ.
ELCA Lutherans believe that baptism addresses itself to the question of salvation. In God’s gift of Baptism we
are assured the forgiveness of sins to live a free, responsible and joyful life - in order that we might be saved
everlastingly. With Luther we can say that, "No greater jewel ... can adorn our body and soul than Baptism, for
through it we obtain perfect holiness and salvation, which no other kind of life and no work on earth can
acquire." Baptism is truly God’s gift, drawing us into Christ’s church and bestowing upon us forgiveness of sins
and the promise of eternal life. In it, we are marked by the cross of Christ forever. The ELCA Service of Holy
Baptism, Lutheran Book of Worship, pg 124, includes these words spoken at your child’s baptism:
"... Child of God,
you have been sealed by the Holy Spirit
and marked with the cross of Christ
forever."
Adapted from materials at www.elca.org
Martin E. Marty, "Baptism," Muhlenberg Press (now Augsburg Fortress Publishers), 1977

Notice the ELCA teaches baptismal regeneration...people are saved by virtue of their baptism. Also notice, once again, the lack of biblical support.

 

[MennoSota]

https://youtu.be/KPJT-_NRRqo

 

[Josiah]

From an ELCA pdf:

Friend, it's difficult to have a discussion of a topic if you CONSTANTLY keep changing topics (in debate, this is called "The Shell Game"). The topic here singular: Is there a specific prohibition on Baptism due to the AGE of the recipient. No one held that the Bible so states. But in the 16th Century, the Anabaptists agreed such doesn't exist but dogmatically imposed such anyway, it's typically known as "Anti-PAEDObaptimsm" The word "paedo" is EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, ONLY about AGE, the chronological AGE of of a person, the amount of TIME since their birth. The issue here. Is that PROHIBITION on Baptism stated in the Bible or not?


Again, there is and never has been a dogma of "Thou are mandated to baptize before said recipient turns one year old." No one says that. No one ever has. No such dogma exists. Never has. By anyone. It's just that 100% of Christians before the 16th Centuryf and most since hold that there is no dogmatic prohibition on baptism due specifically to the AGE of the recipient.


Several here have TRIED to relate to you the historic view. My last attempt was here: https://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6945-Lutheran-Perspective-on-Baptism I tried hard to keep it honest and "clean" and complete enough.




- Josiah

 

[MennoSota]

Friend, it's difficult to have a discussion of a topic if you CONSTANTLY keep changing topics (in debate, this is called "The Shell Game"). The topic here singular: Is there a specific prohibition on Baptism due to the AGE of the recipient. No one held that the Bible so states. But in the 16th Century, the Anabaptists agreed such doesn't exist but dogmatically imposed such anyway, it's typically known as "Anti-PAEDObaptimsm" The word "paedo" is EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, ONLY about AGE, the chronological AGE of of a person, the amount of TIME since their birth. The issue here. Is that PROHIBITION on Baptism stated in the Bible or not?


Again, there is and never has been a dogma of "Thou are mandated to baptize before said recipient turns one year old." No one says that. No one ever has. No such dogma exists. Never has. By anyone. It's just that 100% of Christians before the 16th Centuryf and most since hold that there is no dogmatic prohibition on baptism due specifically to the AGE of the recipient.


Several here have TRIED to relate to you the historic view. My last attempt was here: https://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?6945-Lutheran-Perspective-on-Baptism I tried hard to keep it honest and "clean" and complete enough.




- Josiah

The topic is: If paedobaptism were taught in the Bible, I would believe in it.
So far, not one teaching about paedobaptism from scripture.
That is the topic.
When I post various Lutheran stances on baptism, I do so precisely because there is zero scriptural basis used. They never quote scripture, though, they do quote Luther. If Luther did state what they claim, then Luther got baptism horribly wrong. I expect Luther had a blind spot due to cultural appropriation above scriptural evidence.

 

[Josiah]

The topic is: If paedobaptism were taught in the Bible, I would believe in it.

Here's the position that you claim to reject and not believe, because, you claim, it's not taught in the Bible. HERE IT IS: "There is no stated prohibition to baptism specifically because of the AGE of the recipient." You claim thqt's NOT the case, so your position is that there IS a apecific stat4ed prohibition on baptism because of the AGE of the recipeint. Okay. Everyone understands But in over TWO YEARS, in only God knows in how many posts and threads (even threads having NOTHING to do with Baptism) you have not gotten around to quoting the verse where the Bible states, "Thou canst NOT baptize any who hath not yet attained the chronological age of X." So, this makes everyone wonder: why you do obsessively disagree with the historic position, that there is no verse that states that? How do you avoid that? By perpetually changing the topic and by just repeating your Anabaption Tradition - on and on and on and on.... over and over and voer and over.;... month after month.... in thread after thread (even if the thread has nothing to do with Baptism).


Again: The position you reject is this: There is no s0ecific teaching in the Bible that prohibits baptism because of AGE. You reject that. Then please do what MANY have been asking you do to for TWO SOLID YEARS, just quote the verse that teaches we ARE forbidden to baptize any who have not yet attained the age of (you won't say). Don't change the topic..... Don't pretend you don't understand or haven't read the question.

So far no one has taught Paedobaptism from the Bible

Again.... yet again.... still one MORE time (Staff, please,- please forgive me for the spamming).... as has been pointed out to you far too many times for any human to count..... to post AGAIN, there is no dogma of "Thou art mandated to baptize all before they attaineth the age of (we won't tell you)." That position doesn't exist. Anywhere. In any denomination. It never has. Anywhere. By anyone. The position is this: The Bible nowhere specifically teaches that we are forbidden to baptize anyone who has not yet attained a certain chronological age." THAT'S the position. I think you have done an excellent job of showing that to be the case. What you'd NOT done (yet anyway, not yet in two years) is present the verse where the Bible DOES state such a prohibition based on age;.


Sorry, staff. Please forgive me. I KNOW many, many have said this to MennoSota for over TWO SOLID YEARS now , so many times everyone has lost tract, in every way POSSIBLE. Everyone knows that.




.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

The topic is: If paedobaptism were taught in the Bible, I would believe in it.
So far, not one teaching about paedobaptism from scripture.
That is the topic.
When I post various Lutheran stances on baptism, I do so precisely because there is zero scriptural basis used. They never quote scripture, though, they do quote Luther. If Luther did state what they claim, then Luther got baptism horribly wrong. I expect Luther had a blind spot due to cultural appropriation above scriptural evidence.

Here's some Scriptural basis.

https://wels.net/about-wels/what-we-believe/this-we-believe/means-of-grace/

Also, 1 Peter 3:21 speaks of Baptism saving people.

1 Peter 3:18-22 (English Standard Version)

18) For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19) in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20) because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21) Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22) who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

So, there is both Scriptural support in the Bible and on Lutheran web sources. You just have to know where to look.

Below is the entire text that is available at the link I posted above.

This We Believe

VI.*The means of grace
1.*We believe that God bestows all spiritual blessings upon sinners by special means established by him. These are the means of grace, the gospel in Word and sacraments. We define a sacrament as a sacred act established by Christ in which the Word connected with an earthly element gives the forgiveness of sins.

2.*We believe that through the gospel, the good news of Christ’s atoning sacrifice for sinners, the Holy Spirit works faith in people, whose hearts are by nature hostile to God (1 Peter 1:23). Scripture teaches that “faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ” (Romans 10:17). This Spirit-worked faith brings about a renewal in sinners and makes them heirs of eternal life in heaven.

3.*We believe that also through the Sacrament of Baptism the Holy Spirit applies the gospel to sinners, giving them new life (Titus 3:5) and cleansing them from all sin (Acts 2:38). The Lord points to the blessing of Baptism when he promises, “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved” (Mark 16:16). We believe that the blessing of Baptism is meant for all people (Matthew 28:19), including infants. Infants are born sinful (John 3:6) and therefore need to be born again, that is, to be brought to faith, through Baptism (John 3:5).

4.*We believe that all who join in the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper receive the true body and blood of Christ in, with, and under the bread and wine (1 Corinthians 10:16). This is true because, when the Lord instituted this sacrament, he said, “This is my body. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins” (Matthew 26:26,28). We believe that Christ’s words of institution cause the real presence—not any human action. As believers receive his body and blood, they also receive the forgiveness of sins (Matthew 26:28) and the comfort and assurance that they are truly his own. Unbelievers also receive Christ’s body and blood, but to their judgment (1 Corinthians 11:29).

5.*We believe that the Lord gave his Word and the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper for a purpose. He commanded his followers, “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19,20). Through God’s Word and sacraments he preserves and extends the holy Christian church throughout the world. Believers should therefore be diligent and faithful in the use of these divinely established means of grace for themselves and in their mission outreach to others. These are the only means through which immortal souls are brought to faith and to life in heaven.

6.*We reject any views that look for the revelation of the grace of God and salvation apart from the gospel as found in the Scriptures. We reject any views that look for the Holy Spirit to work faith apart from the means of grace. We likewise reject the view that the law is a means of grace.
7.*We reject the view that babies should not be baptized and that they cannot believe in Christ (Luke 18:15-17). We reject the view that baptism must be by immersion.

8.*We reject all teachings that the Sacrament of the Altar offers nothing more than signs and symbols of Jesus’ sacrifice, thereby denying that Christ’s true body and blood are received in the Lord’s Supper. We reject the view that those who eat the body of Christ in the sacrament merely receive Christ spiritually by faith. We reject the claim that unbelievers and hypocrites do not receive the true body and blood of Jesus in the Sacrament.

9.*We reject the doctrine of transubstantiation, which teaches that the substance of the bread and wine are changed entirely into the body and blood of Christ. Scripture teaches that all communicants receive both the bread and wine and the body and blood of Christ (1 Corinthians 10:16).

10.*We reject any attempt to set the precise moment within the celebration of the Lord’s Supper when the body and blood of Christ become present. We therefore reject the view that one must believe that Christ’s body and blood are present as soon as the words of consecration have been spoken and the view that one must believe that Christ’s body and blood become present only at the moment of eating and drinking.

This is what Scripture teaches about the means of grace. This we believe, teach and confess.
Continue with Church and Ministry
This We Believe* 1999 Northwestern Publishing House, Milwaukee WI.

 

[atpollard]

1 Peter 3:18-22 (English Standard Version)

18) For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19) in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20) because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21) Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22) who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.


Which of those 8 people saved from the Flood did not believe God?
Which of those 8 people saved from the Flood did not climb aboard the Ark for themselves?
Which of those 8 people saved from the Flood was an infant saved because their parent believed God and carried them aboard the Ark?

Credobaptists believe that one enters the Church, the Body of Christ, in exactly the same way as those 8 people entered the Ark.
Are you sure that you do?