I'd Like To Be A Catholic

Lamb

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The Catholic church I went to always taught loving your neighbors, forgiveness, charity, they never spoke of purgatory or hellfire, but confessing your sins, prayer and Gods everlasting love .. nothing really about Mary or saints, we shake hands with members around us in the pews and say "peace be with you", we honored the request of Christ without contemplation and ate the bread that is his body, and drank a sip of wine that is his blood. The sign of the cross is a gesture of proclamation, the rosery is for meditation, figures are merely icons and had been used since early Christianity with the crude paintings of Jesus.
Nothing wrong with that church, I just get sleepy because of the echoing chants and the echoing sermon, so they make you stand up and sit and kneel to keep you awake ;)

What's an echoing sermon? I've never heard a homily be echoed so I'm not sure what you mean by that.
 

Josiah

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The Catholic church I went to always taught loving your neighbors, forgiveness, charity, they never spoke of purgatory or hellfire, but confessing your sins, prayer and Gods everlasting love .. nothing really about Mary or saints, we shake hands with members around us in the pews and say "peace be with you", we honored the request of Christ without contemplation and ate the bread that is his body, and drank a sip of wine that is his blood. The sign of the cross is a gesture of proclamation, the rosery is for meditation, figures are merely icons and had been used since early Christianity with the crude paintings of Jesus.
Nothing wrong with that church, I just get sleepy because of the echoing chants and the echoing sermon, so they make you stand up and sit and kneel to keep you awake ;)


My experience is similar.....

1. Yeah, MY experience is that the sermons tended to be really weak. Short and not substantial. To ME, it was overshadowed by an excellent liturgy and worship service - very biblical, inspirational, transformational.

2. Yeah, I was a kid but I can't remember one mention of Purgatory or indulgences or pretty much anything modern American "Evangelicals" talk about in Catholicism. I'm NOT saying those aren't teachings of the RCC.... it's just they were never taught. I'll say the same about Transubstantiation, yes the "CHANGED" thing (as found also in the Orthodox Church) but not a word about Transubstantiation; indeed a teacher in the First Communion Class of our parish verbatim told me, "We don't teach that anymore." Now, Mary was certainly held in very high esteem.... and the Marian feast days were celebrated, and She came up in altar prayers.... but nowhere near the role some "Evangelicals" think. There ARE Catholics who get really obsessed and extreme on Mary but I never saw that in my parish or see it among my (many) Catholic relatives. You are right: What you hear is a LOT of emphasis on love, forgiveness, service (and fortunately, pro-life).

3. Funny you bring up Purgatory. I;ve been to several Catholic funerals... and NEVER ONCE so much as heard the word. The pastor always spoke of the loved one BEING IN HEAVEN (perhaps a direct rejection of this Catholic dogma). I never heard the word in my Catholic days either.

4. Now, I DO think that in my parish, this issues of Justification and Sanctification was poorly conveyed, in fact really muddy and unclear. I didn't leave Catholicism over this but when I became Lutheran, here was a HUGE, life-changing epiphany. To this day, I'm not SURE Catholicism is officially wrong but I do think it tends to be extremely muddy on this... we have several (old) threads about this here at CH. But fortunately, Catholics tend to be surprisingly Lutheran on this point, at least my Catholic family is.




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Albion

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My experience is similar.....

I;ve been to several Catholic funerals... and NEVER ONCE so much as heard the word. The pastor always spoke of the loved one BEING IN HEAVEN (perhaps a direct rejection of this Catholic dogma). I never heard the word in my Catholic days either.

Just imagine if he'd kept to the Catholic position and told the grieving family, "Our friend is now in either Purgatory or Hell, suffering because of his sins. But we rejoice in the belief that it's more likely to be Purgatory and, if so, that suffering will not last as long as if he'd been sent to hell!"

It's no wonder that the Catholic Church is 'phasing out' Purgatory. The laity don't want to believe in it and the clergy don't want to talk about it.
 

Josiah

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ALBION -

A valid point. It reminds me of a conversation I had with one of the teachers in our parish's RCIA class (membership class). We were discussing a claim some Catholics make that the teachings of that church have never changed, obviously an absurd belief. This is what he said, "When Catholic leadership realizes the Church has been wrong, it CANNOT say that without destroying the entire basis of the Church, so it does one or both of two other things: It just redefines all the words so that it now "means" something very different than it did OR it simply stops talking about it." I think that's true.

I think true, authentic Catholics have a problem (and it's NOT unique to them but to ANYONE who accepts the epistemology that the source cannot be wrong). A true Catholic accepts, 'with docility" (sic) WHATEVER the Roman Catholic Church says "as Christ Himself speaking" (sic). Now there are limitations on this - it's not necessarily your parish priest or even your bishop, it's something OFFICIAL and from the entire RCC, it's in accord with established teaching, etc. But it IS docilic submission to the source BECAUSE the SOURCE commands that and claims to be unaccountable. (Before you shake your head TOO hard at this, consider our relationship to the Bible). Anyway..... what happens when that teaching is NOT swallowed whole ... with docility.... hook, line and sinker.... as is the case in the overwhelming majority of Catholics? Well, for the LAITY, it's just kept to self or shared only with other laity (and maybe even a very embracing priest). But what about the priest, the bishop, or even a First Communion or RCIA lay person? Well...... you either redefine the words (up means down, that sort of thing) to twist it so that it means what it obviously doesn't OR you just stop talking about it (and hope it just fades from memory). Now.... in fairness.... I think this happens in Protestantism too. In my denomination, as late at the 1930's, lots taught that THE pope in Rome was "THE Antichrist." There was even a Convention that affirmed that in a resolution. Now, ask any lay person in any congregation of my denomination and they'll not only disagree with that (as I would) BUT tell you they were NEVER taught that (and they'd be telling you the truth). Now, PERSONALLY, I wish my denomination would just say "we were wrong about that" but humility and confession are (ODDLY) not typical attributes of Christians or the Church. It ain't a uniquely Catholic issue.


A blessed Pentecost to you and yours!


Josiah




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Albion

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Thank you, Josiah. Your review of the way the Catholic Church teaches about its infallibility and certain other matters is as I remember it also. In addition, it's no secret that many if not most Catholics don't accept all that their church says they must.

A poll showed, for instance, that something like 2/3 of American Catholics think that the Communion elements are simply SYMBOLIC of Christ's body and blood. And I know that a substantial number favor women priests.

So why are they Catholics? It's because the #1 and most compelling belief Catholic laypersons have is that theirs is the One (and only) True Church.

That's been drummed into them, and it supersedes every other teaching, as they understand it. Therefore, salvation would be lost if they were to leave for another denomination! This, it appears, is the primary reason most Catholics in this country are Catholics.
 

Josiah

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Thank you, Josiah. Your review of the way the Catholic Church teaches about its infallibility and certain other matters is as I remember it also. In addition, it's no secret that many if not most Catholics don't accept all that their church says they must.

A poll showed, for instance, that something like 2/3 of American Catholics think that the Communion elements are simply SYMBOLIC of Christ's body and blood. And I know that a substantial number favor women priests.

So why are they Catholics? It's because the #1 and most compelling belief Catholic laypersons have is that theirs is the One (and only) True Church.

That's been drummed into them, and it supersedes every other teaching, as they understand it. Therefore, salvation would be lost if they were to leave for another denomination! This, it appears, is the primary reason most Catholics in this country are Catholics.


From MY experience and from ( a lot of ) Catholic family and friends....


I agree, the idea that this is the church JESUS founded (good or bad).... is a major issue in why they stay Catholic. As you put it, it's "drummed into them" (yup!)

BUT I'd argue there are other things....

1. I think a LOT of Catholics love the liturgy, the ART of the whole thing (music, architecture, art work), the beauty. When I was Catholic and went to Mass, I felt like I'd been to CHURCH, that I had worshipped.... and FELT that Jesus was there. When I turned Protestant, a LOT of the worship I found there "felt" empty, cold, void. Yeah, it's culture, it's growing up with something, it's tradition - but I think it HOLDS a lot. To be honest, while I was pretty young, it had that draw on me.... I hated to leave Catholic worship. True confession, for years afterward, when I was away on a weekend, I went to a Catholic Church. For the worship. Similarly (and again I guess you could not the "drummed into it" thing), I came to LOVE the Eucharist. It's a very big deal in Catholicism. The LCMS church I go to now did not have every-Sunday Communion when I joined and I really missed it! I felt like "this is not a full worship service, something BIG is missing." Long story but love and patience and persistence paid off because it now has Communion at every service. Catholics miss this elsewhere.... and they believe that when Protestants DO have this, it's just Weber's White Bread and Welch's Grape Juice playtime. The worship and the Sacrament are major "magnets" IMO.

2. And I (at least) felt a big connection to LOTS of Christians.... this is MUCH bigger than me and this parish! I liked that I'm confessing a Creed that all Christians for 1700 years did and do. That a lot of this liturgy goes back many centuries. It worked against individualism, me-ism, and made me fell that I belonged to something, was a part of something much bigger than me. Now, when I converted, this actually GREW since Lutherans stress this too, a LOT - only not just one very big and old denomination, but the WHOLE church catholic. I think Catholics often find this missing outside Catholicism,, however.

And for ME.... I was passionately pro-life (still am) and this was a loud message in my parish. I was involved in pro-life organizations - and while there were a number of Mormons there and a few Lutherans, in general it was Catholics. I felt a "tie" between this thing I believed so strongly and the church I was a part of.


Now, people LEAVE that denomination. In droves. Some 30 MILLION Americans are FORMER Catholics, "Former Catholics" is the second largest religious group in America. And the reasons are many (lots of surveys done on this, you can google 'em as I have). MY experience is that the majority leave because 1) They've just lost all connections to that church 2) Their spouse is Protestant and its easy to move over to that. 3) They've been hurt by the Catholic Church or something or someone in it. 4) They have EMOTIONAL needs for connection, for friendship - and frankly, a lot of Catholic parishes are pretty cold, unfriendly and not connective. A FEW are like me and leave for theological reasons but I think we are a small percentage. Those who disagree with the Church (and that's close to 100%) just shut up and stay for the reasons mentioned above. I couldn't do that (everyone here KNOWS I can't shut up).



.
 

Albion

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You have thought a lot about this, I see. Those are good points, and I agree that to some degree they probably do account for the loyalty.

Anglican worship is more reverent and beautiful and, if a Catholic doesn't mind the abruptness and extent of the change, the Orthodox divine liturgy might work, too. But few of their buildings are the equal of the typical Catholic ones, and neither has as many parishes for the inquirer to consider as do the Roman Catholics. So, yes, there are more than a few issues that can get involved in any decision-making process, some of them not particularly doctrinal in nature but still important to a lot of people.
 
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Andrew

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What's an echoing sermon? I've never heard a homily be echoed so I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Sounds like a cathedral hall or a cave, in music production its called the hall effect
 

Andrew

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Just imagine if he'd kept to the Catholic position and told the grieving family, "Our friend is now in either Purgatory or Hell, suffering because of his sins. But we rejoice in the belief that it's more likely to be Purgatory and, if so, that suffering will not last as long as if he'd been sent to hell!"

It's no wonder that the Catholic Church is 'phasing out' Purgatory. The laity don't want to believe in it and the clergy don't want to talk about it.
Yeah dogma has to gently fall asleep, phase out, the passage they based the dogma on was before Christ and was not about getting anyone out of hell to get into heaven, it was about praying they have obtain a better resurrection, the verse also clearly says that it was a pious thought.. I believe the majority of the Church has known this for centuries but the pamphlets on Purgatory are to still given to Catholics at their request. I took all of my Grandmas religious books, she has so many books on Hell and Purgatory and its all based on "visions" from bishops, nuns and clergy since medieval times. Spooky books I must say
 

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My experience is similar.....

1. Yeah, MY experience is that the sermons tended to be really weak. Short and not substantial. To ME, it was overshadowed by an excellent liturgy and worship service - very biblical, inspirational, transformational.

2. Yeah, I was a kid but I can't remember one mention of Purgatory or indulgences or pretty much anything modern American "Evangelicals" talk about in Catholicism. I'm NOT saying those aren't teachings of the RCC.... it's just they were never taught. I'll say the same about Transubstantiation, yes the "CHANGED" thing (as found also in the Orthodox Church) but not a word about Transubstantiation; indeed a teacher in the First Communion Class of our parish verbatim told me, "We don't teach that anymore." Now, Mary was certainly held in very high esteem.... and the Marian feast days were celebrated, and She came up in altar prayers.... but nowhere near the role some "Evangelicals" think. There ARE Catholics who get really obsessed and extreme on Mary but I never saw that in my parish or see it among my (many) Catholic relatives. You are right: What you hear is a LOT of emphasis on love, forgiveness, service (and fortunately, pro-life).

3. Funny you bring up Purgatory. I;ve been to several Catholic funerals... and NEVER ONCE so much as heard the word. The pastor always spoke of the loved one BEING IN HEAVEN (perhaps a direct rejection of this Catholic dogma). I never heard the word in my Catholic days either.

4. Now, I DO think that in my parish, this issues of Justification and Sanctification was poorly conveyed, in fact really muddy and unclear. I didn't leave Catholicism over this but when I became Lutheran, here was a HUGE, life-changing epiphany. To this day, I'm not SURE Catholicism is officially wrong but I do think it tends to be extremely muddy on this... we have several (old) threads about this here at CH. But fortunately, Catholics tend to be surprisingly Lutheran on this point, at least my Catholic family is.




.
What’s Justification and Sanctification? I don’t even know about that.
as far as the rest of your post I agree with pretty much all of it except I do know of Catholics who are pretty extreme about Mary.
 

Faith

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From MY experience and from ( a lot of ) Catholic family and friends....


I agree, the idea that this is the church JESUS founded (good or bad).... is a major issue in why they stay Catholic. As you put it, it's "drummed into them" (yup!)

BUT I'd argue there are other things....

1. I think a LOT of Catholics love the liturgy, the ART of the whole thing (music, architecture, art work), the beauty. When I was Catholic and went to Mass, I felt like I'd been to CHURCH, that I had worshipped.... and FELT that Jesus was there. When I turned Protestant, a LOT of the worship I found there "felt" empty, cold, void. Yeah, it's culture, it's growing up with something, it's tradition - but I think it HOLDS a lot. To be honest, while I was pretty young, it had that draw on me.... I hated to leave Catholic worship. True confession, for years afterward, when I was away on a weekend, I went to a Catholic Church. For the worship. Similarly (and again I guess you could not the "drummed into it" thing), I came to LOVE the Eucharist. It's a very big deal in Catholicism. The LCMS church I go to now did not have every-Sunday Communion when I joined and I really missed it! I felt like "this is not a full worship service, something BIG is missing." Long story but love and patience and persistence paid off because it now has Communion at every service. Catholics miss this elsewhere.... and they believe that when Protestants DO have this, it's just Weber's White Bread and Welch's Grape Juice playtime. The worship and the Sacrament are major "magnets" IMO.

2. And I (at least) felt a big connection to LOTS of Christians.... this is MUCH bigger than me and this parish! I liked that I'm confessing a Creed that all Christians for 1700 years did and do. That a lot of this liturgy goes back many centuries. It worked against individualism, me-ism, and made me fell that I belonged to something, was a part of something much bigger than me. Now, when I converted, this actually GREW since Lutherans stress this too, a LOT - only not just one very big and old denomination, but the WHOLE church catholic. I think Catholics often find this missing outside Catholicism,, however.

And for ME.... I was passionately pro-life (still am) and this was a loud message in my parish. I was involved in pro-life organizations - and while there were a number of Mormons there and a few Lutherans, in general it was Catholics. I felt a "tie" between this thing I believed so strongly and the church I was a part of.


Now, people LEAVE that denomination. In droves. Some 30 MILLION Americans are FORMER Catholics, "Former Catholics" is the second largest religious group in America. And the reasons are many (lots of surveys done on this, you can google 'em as I have). MY experience is that the majority leave because 1) They've just lost all connections to that church 2) Their spouse is Protestant and its easy to move over to that. 3) They've been hurt by the Catholic Church or something or someone in it. 4) They have EMOTIONAL needs for connection, for friendship - and frankly, a lot of Catholic parishes are pretty cold, unfriendly and not connective. A FEW are like me and leave for theological reasons but I think we are a small percentage. Those who disagree with the Church (and that's close to 100%) just shut up and stay for the reasons mentioned above. I couldn't do that (everyone here KNOWS I can't shut up).



.
What theological reasons did you leave the RCC for? I left because I wasn’t being spiritually fed there. The homilies didnt reach me or touch my heart.....totally unrelatable. The music were some of the same songs we sang when I was a kid. In short, it’s probably offensive to some but I left from sheer boredom.
 

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I'd been a member of the Roman Catholic Church from 1995 to 2013 and I'll tell you, it was one of the loneliest experiences I've ever had as a Christian. Differences in theology can go from super conservative ( as in the Diocese of Arlington) to mega- liberal ( the Diocese of Richmond). Geographical locations can point to differences in theology so profound that it's difficult to believe you're worshipping in two churches that are supposed to confess the same faith. I also managed to stay so anonymous as a Catholic that it felt like I was doing my faith by myself, regardless of the enormous crowds that would pack the sanctuary for the Saturday night and Sunday masses. Passing the peace is all very well, but in the end, plastic smiles and nods to strangers just rendered the experience a " faked fellowship."

The liturgy was beautiful. Having come from an austere Baptist background, I was entranced by the traditions that had gone back further than the Puritan Movement in the Church of England. Had I known at the time that the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod answered my craving for both Biblical emphasis and tradition, I would probably have joined up a lot sooner. Anyway, I did everything I thought I was supposed to do: Mass weekly, Reconciliation monthly and every Lent extra rosaries to be said. I missed community. I had some fellow Catholics who were friends in college, but many of them also left the RCC later on in life. I was involved in the Catholic Campus Ministry in college and I enjoyed quite an education on that front. Years passed and it got to the point when I was not only not going through the motions, but investigating almost every other non- Christian belief system under the sun.

I prayed to God one day, wrapped in a marriage that was coming to a close, that He would put me in a church where I could be the most use to Him. A good, solid Lutheran Church, either LCMS or WELS. I'd investigated Presbyterianism and the Episcopal Church and they left me hollow. ELCA was completely out of the question. Religious liberalism just isn't my thing. It turned out that Hope Lutheran Church ( LCMS) in Jacksonville, FL, was the place for me. I served as an usher, as a member of the altar guild ( it was a small missionary church at the time), I even distributed the Host during Holy Communion from time to time and I also served as a lector. I found my spiritual home, by God's grace. When my marriage ended and I returned to Virginia, Hope Lutheran Church in Manassas was waiting for me with open arms. I transferred my membership, served as secretary of the Church Council, as an usher and also as a lector for a time.

My ancestry is English, Scots- Irish, with about 1/8 French Creole and 1/16 German added to the mix and as a Lutheran, that background is completely irrelevant, except to my fellow genealogy fanatics at church, who look back to German, Danish and Norwegian roots, as well as to Salvadoran, Indian and Tanzanian roots. In the Body of Christ, we are all one, regardless. I wish you well in whatever choice you make, but I do have to recommend a consideration of the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod as a possible option for you, as it has never failed me.
God bless you.
 

Josiah

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What theological reasons did you leave the RCC for?



This is 3 years old.... I might be kinder now.





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Hezekiah

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This is 3 years old.... I might be kinder now.





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Yeah, time does tend to mellow one out a little bit. I'm not quite as much the Lutheran Crusader as I was in 2013, myself ( although I am every bit the Confessional Lutheran now as I was previously). I'm not as likely to raise my eyebrows and smirk if somebody tells me that they hail from a more pietistic tradition ( which is a good thing. I was probably a pain in the gluteals to my extended relatives for at least the first three years since I was received into the Lutheran Church. Convert fever, man! Swimming the Elbe was refreshing and there's no trail more fun to hike than the Wittenberg Trail). We are still but a part of the Body of Christ, though. A pretty good part, but just a part.
 

Fritz Kobus

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The Catholic Church is the only true church.
The true church is all Christians wherever they may be found, which in fact is in many different denominations including Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc.
 

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The true church is all Christians wherever they may be found, which in fact is in many different denominations including Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc.
...and claiming that one's own denomination is the one and only true church specifically founded by Christ is basically what every cult says (if you think about it for a moment).
 

Josiah

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...and claiming that one's own denomination is the one and only true church specifically founded by Christ is basically what every cult says (if you think about it for a moment)

... all for the same reason: To avoid accountability. "Just swallow whatever I (alone) tell you 'cuz I alone tell you to and I tell you I can't be wrong so I can't be wrong when I tell you I'm not wrong."



.
 

Josiah

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Why I left The Catholic Church....



I must begin by saying this was by far the hardest thing I've ever done in life....

I have Catholic roots going back CENTURIES.... my family is largely Catholic (not all active, however)... I LOVED my parish and felt deep roots there... and I was LOVED by my church. I did (and still do) LOVE the liturgy, the sense of history and community, the spiritualism of Catholicism, the practical aspect given to faith..... I LOVED the very pro-life, pro-family emphasis..... I admired the boldness of the RCC in standing up for morality....

It must be noted too that I still agree with probably 95% of Catholicism., maybe 95% of the 2865 points of the Catholic Catechism. Indeed, I AGREE with Catholicism more than nearly all of the Catholics I know. There are a FEW things I'm not totally on board with - but they weren't "deal brakers" (the Marian dogmas, for example) and less than a handful that I clearly rejected: The Dogma of the Church, the Docilic Submission of members, the Infallibility of the Roman Pontiff.... less so, Purgatory (I'm okay with the idea, just all the dogma around it) and Transubstantiation (a classic case of saying WAY too much actually endangering the truth).


But it was a move I felt was mandated.... by integrity and honesty. It was a case of LEAVING since I had no idea where I'd go, and it was EXCLUSIVELY for theological/doctrinal reasons.


1. The Dogma of the Church.

While the CC retains a faint sense of the Church of Christ - the one, holy, catholic community of all believers - in truth, this is buried by the dogmatic insistence of it itself that it itself IS the Church (at least in fullness). There is an OBSESSION with it itself by it itself - as a geopolitical, economic, earthly, institutional/denominational entity with the HQ in Rome. This whole dogma gets very radical. The RCC even speaks of itself as JESUS on earth. When IT speaks, Jesus Himself is speaking. I found this really very, very extreme focus on self and the claims of self for self to be quite unbiblical, unhistorical and frankly troubling... but all of Catholicism hinges on this: in a real sense, Catholicism stands or falls on this series of claims of it itself for it itself - and it is often central to its message. At times, I felt as if the RCC talked about itself more than God ("Catholic" this, "Catholic" that) and promoted itself more than Christ. While I have nothing against denominations per se... and regard the CC as one of the best denominations.... I found its claims not only unacceptable but divisive, unbiblical and troubling. With SO much good in Catholicism, it seemed at times to get lost in the obsession of itself with itself. Sometimes I felt that it pointed to itself more than to Christ. Now, to be fair, most Catholics don't believe this... and even my Catholic teachers "winked" at this. But it IS foundational... and I found it unacceptable.


2. Epistemology.

The Catholic Catechism #87 says this, "Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles, 'He who hears you hears me," the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their [Catholic] pastors give them in different forms." Understand, this is the cornerstone of Catholicism. This is the reason for the Doctrine of the Church that it has... the reason for all the claims that when IT (alone) speaks ergo Jesus is, the reason for the INFALLIBILITY of their Pope, and the reason for their enormous repudiation of Sola Scriptura. There is a radical rejection of accountability of itself and a bold demand that all just swallow whatever is said, "with docility." This is DRILLED into Catholics from birth. See CCC 85, 95... this is the cornerstone of the denomination. In part, I think this is simply a mindset of the middle ages but it is SO stressed. Yes, one my ask QUESTIONS but not hold the CC accountable. And the issue is never "because it;s TRUE but because the RCC teachings it." I found this troubling.... especially after I spent some time studying the cults. And I found this obsession with power and submission odd. The CC is clearly correct about SO much.... and all it's teachings are VERY well thought out (even where I disagree), I have a LOT of respect for Catholic scholarship. So WHY this extreme need to evade all accountability? I KNOW why the cults need it, but why the RCC ? BTW, many think Luther was excommunicated NOT because he said Jesus is the Savior (as the CC claimed) but because he said the individual RC Denomination could err, thus undermining this point. I had to ask myself: Do I just swallow whole - with docility - WHATEVER the RCC says BECAUSE it says it? No, I don't. Thus, I'm not Catholic (my Deacon shouted) - or at least not faithful (as CCC 87, etc., etc., etc., etc. says). I share this from the "Handbook of the Catholic Church" page 137, "When someone asks where the Catholic finds the substance of his belief, the answer is this: From the living teaching Authority. This Authority consists of the Pope and the bishops under him at the time." Nothing about Jesus or God or Scripture or even Tradition.... and lest one confuse this with the Church, nope - this is a denomination. I had trouble with that. And I had to ask, am I therefore a Catholic? The answer seemed clear... and I needed to have the honesty, the integrity, the character to not lie just because I loved my parish and my family.

In both of these, there's a foundational circular reasoning. And an egoism and power-grabbing that just struck me as antithetical to Christianity. And again, I need to be fair, BOTH of these are things a LOT of Catholics understand IS required belief from them... they just don't believe it. I personally had a problem SAYING I believed it when I did not.

I must say too that I was uncomfortable with a goodly number of things being regarded as DOGMA. Some Marian teachings, Purgatory, Transubstantion, etc. It's NOT that I necessarily regarded these as wrong, just uncomfortable with them being DOGMAS, something that HAD to be fully accepted.



Finding a new church wasn't easy..... I had no desire to "reinvent the wheel" and I was NOT a revolutionary, I had no desire to "throw the baby out with the bathwater," there was MUCH (very much) I passionately believed and loved and would not abandoned. Truth - it was scary; I wasn't at all sure I'd find a church and that troubled me a LOT. I looked for a place where there was a deep sense of community, humility, accountability..... a church that was CHRIST centered rather than DENOMINATION centered... with the Cross is lifted high instead of the denomination... but also that was liturgical, sacramental, pro-life/pro-family, embracing of tradition and the whole people of God.... Some place where I would not have to LIE about docilicly swallowing a bunch of stuff that I actually didn't; were I could be honest. I found all that and more in Lutheranism.

My entrance there was originally because I saw it as a more original and simple form of Catholicism (LOTS of ex-Catholics are attracted to Lutheranism for the same reason, I would learn). BUT I soon learned the beautiful Gospel of Christ as Savior, the Theology of the Cross, the Law/Gospel distinction, and became clearly Lutheran. I have ex-Catholic friends who headed East to the Orthodox Church and those who headed to England to the Anglican Church - and those are fine faith communities, too. But I'm glad God lead me to Lutheranism....

In many ways, it's clear to see there's still some Catholic in me..... my spirituality is a blend of Catholicism (for example, Mary is precious to me, and I do the Sign of the Cross a lot, lol) BUT I've gained so much Lutheran spirituality - with it's rich, deep sense of humility and ministry.


MY journey..... Ain't saying it should be anyone else's. Yes, I'm aware that there are Protestants who join the CC, too.


- Josiah




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