How to identify a valid pastor.

[Spindle4]

Of course, but some are authorized and organized in the Biblical fashion...and others are unauthorized (or ''manufactured", as you put it) and largely unsupervised. There's no denying that fact, even as there's some argument over what it takes in order to be authorized.

It's nothing new, Albion, but certainly a worthwhile topic for discussion.

Remember this encounter?

Mat 21:23-27 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, "By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?" (24) But Jesus answered and said to them, "I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: (25) The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?" And they reasoned among themselves, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' He will say to us, 'Why then did you not believe him?' (26) But if we say, 'From men,' we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet." (27) So they answered Jesus and said, "We do not know." And He said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.

Since the usurping of God's authority by Satan speaking through the serpent in Eden, others have done the same.

Jer 5:30-31 "An astonishing and horrible thing Has been committed in the land: (31) The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule by their own power; And My people love to have it so. But what will you do in the end?

Lev 10:1-3 Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. (2) So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. (3) And Moses said to Aaron, "This is what the LORD spoke, saying: 'By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; And before all the people I must be glorified.' " So Aaron held his peace.

Mat 7:22-23 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' (23) And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

The Following Quotes Are From The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia™

Sadducees​

(săj`o͝osēz, săd`yo͝o–), sect of Jews formed around the time of the Hasmonean revolt (c.200 B.C.). Little is known concerning their beliefs, but according to Josephus Flavius, they upheld only the authority of the written law, and not the oral tradition held by the Pharisees. They are believed to have had a small following, drawn primarily from the upper classes. Eventually, they reached an accommodation with the Pharisees, which allowed them to serve as priests in exchange for acceptance of Pharasitical rulings regarding the law. Their sect was centered on the cult of the Temple, and they ceased to exist after its destruction in A.D. 70.

Pharisees​

(fâr`ĭsēz), one of the two great Jewish religious and political parties of the second commonwealth. Their opponents were the Sadducees, and it appears that the Sadducees gave them their name, perushim, Hebrew for "separatists" or "deviants." The Pharisees began their activities during or after the Hasmonean revolt (c.166–142 B.C.). The Pharisees upheld an interpretation of Judaism that was in opposition to the priestly Temple cult. They stressed faith in the one God; the divine revelation of the law both written and oral handed down by Moses through Joshua, the elders, and the prophets to the Pharisees; and eternal life and resurrection for those who keep the law. Pharisees insisted on the strict observance of Jewish law, which they began to codify. While in agreement on the broad outlines of Jewish law, the Pharisees encouraged debate on its fine points, and according to one view, practiced the tradition of zuggot, or pairs of scholars with opposing views. They developed the synagogue as an alternative place of worship to the Temple, with a liturgy consisting of biblical and prophetic readings, and the repetition of the shma, the basic creed of Judaism. In addition, they supported the separation of the worldly and the spiritual spheres, ceding the former to the secular rulers. Though some supported the revolt against Rome in A.D. 70, most did not. One Pharisee was Yohanan ben Zakkai, who fled to Jamnia, where he was instrumental in developing post-Temple Judaism. By separating Judaism from dependence on the Temple cult, and by stressing the direct relation between the individual and God, the Pharisees laid the groundwork for normative rabbinic Judaism. Their influence on Christianity was substantial as well, despite the passages in the New Testament which label the Pharisees "hypocrites" or "offspring of the vipers." St. Paul was originally a Pharisee. After the fall of the Temple (A.D. 70), the Pharisees became the dominant party until c.135.

[Copyright © 2022, Columbia University Press. Licensed from Columbia University Press. All rights reserved. www.cc.columbia.edu/cu/cup/]

 

[Albion]

It's nothing new, Albion, but certainly a worthwhile topic for discussion.

Remember this encounter?

Mat 21:23-27 Now when He came into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people confronted Him as He was teaching, and said, "By what authority are You doing these things? And who gave You this authority?" (24) But Jesus answered and said to them, "I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell Me, I likewise will tell you by what authority I do these things: (25) The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?" And they reasoned among themselves, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' He will say to us, 'Why then did you not believe him?' (26) But if we say, 'From men,' we fear the multitude, for all count John as a prophet." (27) So they answered Jesus and said, "We do not know." And He said to them, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I do these things.

Since the usurping of God's authority by Satan speaking through the serpent in Eden, others have done the same.

Jer 5:30-31 "An astonishing and horrible thing Has been committed in the land: (31) The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule by their own power; And My people love to have it so. But what will you do in the end?

Lev 10:1-3 Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. (2) So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. (3) And Moses said to Aaron, "This is what the LORD spoke, saying: 'By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; And before all the people I must be glorified.' " So Aaron held his peace.

Mat 7:22-23 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' (23) And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

The Following Quotes Are From The Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia™

Sadducees​

(săj`o͝osēz, săd`yo͝o–), sect of Jews formed around the time of the Hasmonean revolt (c.200 B.C.). Little is known concerning their beliefs, but according to Josephus Flavius, they upheld only the authority of the written law, and not the oral tradition held by the Pharisees. They are believed to have had a small following, drawn primarily from the upper classes. Eventually, they reached an accommodation with the Pharisees, which allowed them to serve as priests in exchange for acceptance of Pharasitical rulings regarding the law. Their sect was centered on the cult of the Temple, and they ceased to exist after its destruction in A.D. 70.

Pharisees​

(fâr`ĭsēz), one of the two great Jewish religious and political parties of the second commonwealth. Their opponents were the Sadducees, and it appears that the Sadducees gave them their name, perushim, Hebrew for "separatists" or "deviants." The Pharisees began their activities during or after the Hasmonean revolt (c.166–142 B.C.). The Pharisees upheld an interpretation of Judaism that was in opposition to the priestly Temple cult. They stressed faith in the one God; the divine revelation of the law both written and oral handed down by Moses through Joshua, the elders, and the prophets to the Pharisees; and eternal life and resurrection for those who keep the law. Pharisees insisted on the strict observance of Jewish law, which they began to codify. While in agreement on the broad outlines of Jewish law, the Pharisees encouraged debate on its fine points, and according to one view, practiced the tradition of zuggot, or pairs of scholars with opposing views. They developed the synagogue as an alternative place of worship to the Temple, with a liturgy consisting of biblical and prophetic readings, and the repetition of the shma, the basic creed of Judaism. In addition, they supported the separation of the worldly and the spiritual spheres, ceding the former to the secular rulers. Though some supported the revolt against Rome in A.D. 70, most did not. One Pharisee was Yohanan ben Zakkai, who fled to Jamnia, where he was instrumental in developing post-Temple Judaism. By separating Judaism from dependence on the Temple cult, and by stressing the direct relation between the individual and God, the Pharisees laid the groundwork for normative rabbinic Judaism. Their influence on Christianity was substantial as well, despite the passages in the New Testament which label the Pharisees "hypocrites" or "offspring of the vipers." St. Paul was originally a Pharisee. After the fall of the Temple (A.D. 70), the Pharisees became the dominant party until c.135.

[Copyright © 2022, Columbia University Press. Licensed from Columbia University Press. All rights reserved. www.cc.columbia.edu/cu/cup/]

I'm sorry, but none of that goes to the point that's at issue here.

Yes, there are abusive pastors, ministers, priests, etc. And, yes, the Hebrew priestly class, which is hardly anything like the Christian ministry, is and was subject to criticism. And ordinary believers overstep their authority at times.

All fine and dandy, but the notion that there is NO such thing as a series of properly called and installed congregational leaders flies in the face of the New Testament...big time.

 

[Spindle4]

I'm sorry, but none of that goes to the point that's at issue here.

Yes, there are abusive pastors, ministers, priests, etc. And, yes, the Hebrew priestly class, which is hardly anything like the Christian ministry, is and was subject to criticism. And ordinary believers overstep their authority at times.

All fine and dandy, but the notion that there is NO such thing as a series of properly called and installed congregational leaders flies in the face of the New Testament...big time.

I'll leave you to resolve your conundrum then. It's just not a new one and in any given calling, vocation, or profession the qualification is not worth the paper it is written on regardless of its appeal to authority, or a person's previous good service record, if the fruit of their labour turns out to be rotten.

Sir Lloyd George Geering ONZ GNZM CBE (born 26 February 1918) is a New Zealand theologian who faced charges of heresy in 1967 for teaching that the Bible's record of Jesus' death and resurrection is not true. He considers Christian and Muslim fundamentalism to be "social evils". Geering is emeritus professor of religious studies at Victoria University of Wellington. In 2007, he was appointed a Member of the Order of New Zealand, New Zealand's highest civilian honour, limited to 20 living people. Geering turned 100 in February 2018.

Geering was ordained as a minister of the Presbyterian Church of Aotearoa New Zealand (PCANZ) in 1943 and practised as a minister in Kurow; Opoho, Dunedin (1945-1950); and St James, Wellington (1950-1956) before turning to theological teaching. He was the honorary associate minister of St John's Church in Wellington from 1971 to 1983. He was named honorary assistant at St Andrew's in Wellington in 1989. Geering remains on the register (Fasti) of New Zealand Presbyterian ministers.[11]
Quoted from Wkpd: Lloyd Geering Heresy Charge

 

[Albion]

It's just not a new one and in any given calling, vocation, or profession the qualification is not worth the paper it is written on regardless of its appeal to authority, or a person's previous good service record, if the fruit of their labour turns out to be rotten.

I think we all know that there are pastors who are not fit for the position or else do not adhere to the standards expected of them.

However, that isn't the issue that was put to readers of this thread.