How can they close churches, and set aside our Bill of Rights and freedom of religion?

[hobie]

For a long time, I just couldn't see how our freedom of religion and our Bill of Rights, along with the Constitution could be set aside unless there was an internal war or overthrow of Americas governance. It's happening..

"Carlson pressed Murphy, a progressive Democrat, on why the state is temporarily banning religious gatherings like funerals while liquor stores are allowed to stay open. The host argued that violates Americans "right to practice religion as they see fit" under the U.S. Bill of Rights.

By what authority did you nullify the Bill of Rights in issuing this order? Carlson asked Murphy.

That's above my pay grade, Tucker, the governor responded. I wasn't thinking of the Bill of Rights when we did this.

I can tell, Carlson replied.

We looked at the data and the science, and it says people have to stay away from each other, said a smiling Murphy, who issued an executive order March 21 requiring Garden State residents to stay home, banning social gatherings, and mandating nonessential businesses close until further notice...

'How do you have the authority to order something that so clearly contravenes the Bill of Rights?' the host asked.

'We know we need to stay away from each other, No. 1,? Murphy said. ?No. 2, we do have broad authority within the state. And No. 3, we would never do that without coordinating, discussing, and hashing it out with the leaders of the faiths of New Jersey.'...

?On what scientific basis did you decide that sitting in a church was much more dangerous than buying liquor in a liquor store?? the host asked. ?I don?t understand the reasoning. ...

'No one's happy, the governor added. 'Everyone wants to get back to what they think of as the norm. And who could blame them ... But I don't think these are one versus the other. I think you can have both of these realities at the same time.

The comments came one day after U.S. Attorney General William Barr weighed in on the question of restrictions related to religious gatherings during the pandemic. Barr said the Constitution "does allow some temporary restriction on our liberties that would not be tolerated in normal circumstances." But, he said, "government may not impose special restrictions on religious activity that do not also apply to similar nonreligious activity."...Gov. Murphy just defended N.J.’s coronavirus lockdown on Fox News. Here’s how it went.

"The Justice Department on Tuesday intervened in a federal lawsuit brought by a Greenville, Miss., church over the city’s efforts to shut down drive-in religious services, telling a judge that local officials had possibly violated the Constitution in their bid to stem the spread of the coronavirus....

.. the Justice Department also asserted that there was no blanket “pandemic exception” to the Constitution and seemed to take Temple Baptist’s side as it urged the judge to carefully consider whether the city’s actions were legal."..https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...ef4f0e-7e70-11ea-9040-68981f488eed_story.html

 

[tango]

Not only is it happening but many people are approving and demanding more restrictions.

A fearful people are easier to control, they not only willingly give up their freedoms but demand that freedoms be taken away in exchange for the hope that Nanny State will keep them safe. Which is sad, given Nanny State can usually do very little to keep us safe.

 

[JRT]

Fear of The Walking Dumb (Who Won’t Stay Home) / John Pavlovitz 2 April 2020
It’s like the script in a terrifying blockbuster horror series:
1,000 people a day are dying from a contagious disease carried by infected human beings, who the healthy people try desperately to keep their distance from, lest they too become infected. They barricade themselves in their homes as much as possible, and when they do have to travel, they do so ever vigilantly—always trying to avoid contact with those who will pass the sickness onto them. But the zombies are plentiful and prolific and relentless in their pursuit. They amass quickly, and with blinding speed they overwhelm and devour up the healthy people until they too become ill—and the sickness spreads exponentially.
Unfortunately, it isn’t a fictional narrative relegated to graphic novels and cable television—it is the nightmare stuff of our waking days here in America: watching the death toll rise stratospherically and being terrified of those around us who refuse to respect science and insist on rejecting data and continue to ignore restrictions and stay determined not to social distance: the walking dumb.
Though 1,000 people died in America yesterday and we topped 215,000 diagnoses, many Florida beaches were still bursting beyond capacity, New York City parks were still packed to overflowing with cross-training classes and pickup basketball games, and here in our North Carolina suburb, people continue to act like it’s Spring Break in Margaritaville: having cookouts and playing corn hole and giving out hugs and high fives with impunity.
It is a sign of a collective sickness greater than this virus: willful ignorance.
For some the reckless defiance to stay at home orders is a political statement. They simply cannot acknowledge how dire the situation is, because to do so would mean finally having to admit that this was never a “Democratic hoax,” as their beloved president had said—and so in a partisan, Fox News-induced stupor, they play golf and hang out with friends and share food to Make America Great and own the Libs.
Some are choosing to make a showy religious declaration; calling upon God to deliver them as though from the encroaching Egyptians at the water’s edge—not bothering to consider that God could have given them doctors and scientists and trained experts, who are telling them that the greatest exodus from harm and captivity, is to simply stay home.
Others are a victim of their own nationalistic fervor and Don’t Tread on Me mythology. Their desire for personal freedom at any cost is making them defiant in their unconscientious objection. They are more interested in not feeling restricted—than they are in making a small, temporary personal sacrifice for the greater good. They would rather be “free” than responsible with people around them.
Some are afflicted with garden variety selfishness. They simply don’t care, because they feel themselves immune and invincible, and so they give no thought to people for whom a diagnosis would most likely be a death sentence: the immunocompromised or the elderly or those with lung ailments. They don’t consider the strain on the already taxed healthcare system or the cost to businesses that are more likely not to survive with each passing day or the schools that can’t open and the millions of students whose educations are being further detoured the longer this goes on. They don’t stop to reckon with the ripples of their actions and so they shop and workout and don’t wash their hands, because they see no reason not to.
And so as terrifying as these days already are, it’s a compounding terror to have to worry about the people around you: to watch their recklessness and their disregard for other human beings, to fear your neighbors and friends because they could be perpetuating this disaster through whatever toxic cocktail of partisan politics, bad theology, selfishness, and lack of information isn’t allowing them to see the gravity of the moment.
In the past, Americans were asked to fight and die on foreign soil in order to save other American lives—and they did. Today, we’re asked to simply stay home to accomplish the same noble task and many can’t manage that. Maybe that is where our loss of greatness truly resides.

It’s an indictment of the times and of the people we have become, of the sense of interdependence that we’ve lost; of losing the belief that we are our brother’s keeper and that we are our best when we love our neighbor as ourselves.
I don’t want to be afraid of the people I share this world with. That’s a pretty lousy way to go through life.
I just wish more of them saw beyond themselves and considered the way their lives rub up against other people’s, especially when life and death literally reside in their choices.
I wish they’d stop helping this virus and start helping one another.
I wish they would stay home and end this nightmare.
That would be a story worth living in.

 

[psalms 91]

We are heading toward a revolution if it keeps up and I worry that Trump will use this tio suspend elections and stay in office without being elected, a true disaster

 

[JRT]

Fear of The Walking Dumb (Who Won’t Stay Home) / John Pavlovitz 2 April 2020
It’s like the script in a terrifying blockbuster horror series:
1,000 people a day are dying from a contagious disease carried by infected human beings, who the healthy people try desperately to keep their distance from, lest they too become infected. They barricade themselves in their homes as much as possible, and when they do have to travel, they do so ever vigilantly—always trying to avoid contact with those who will pass the sickness onto them. But the zombies are plentiful and prolific and relentless in their pursuit. They amass quickly, and with blinding speed they overwhelm and devour up the healthy people until they too become ill—and the sickness spreads exponentially.
Unfortunately, it isn’t a fictional narrative relegated to graphic novels and cable television—it is the nightmare stuff of our waking days here in America: watching the death toll rise stratospherically and being terrified of those around us who refuse to respect science and insist on rejecting data and continue to ignore restrictions and stay determined not to social distance: the walking dumb.
Though 1,000 people died in America yesterday and we topped 215,000 diagnoses, many Florida beaches were still bursting beyond capacity, New York City parks were still packed to overflowing with cross-training classes and pickup basketball games, and here in our North Carolina suburb, people continue to act like it’s Spring Break in Margaritaville: having cookouts and playing corn hole and giving out hugs and high fives with impunity.
It is a sign of a collective sickness greater than this virus: willful ignorance.
For some the reckless defiance to stay at home orders is a political statement. They simply cannot acknowledge how dire the situation is, because to do so would mean finally having to admit that this was never a “Democratic hoax,” as their beloved president had said—and so in a partisan, Fox News-induced stupor, they play golf and hang out with friends and share food to Make America Great and own the Libs.
Some are choosing to make a showy religious declaration; calling upon God to deliver them as though from the encroaching Egyptians at the water’s edge—not bothering to consider that God could have given them doctors and scientists and trained experts, who are telling them that the greatest exodus from harm and captivity, is to simply stay home.
Others are a victim of their own nationalistic fervor and Don’t Tread on Me mythology. Their desire for personal freedom at any cost is making them defiant in their unconscientious objection. They are more interested in not feeling restricted—than they are in making a small, temporary personal sacrifice for the greater good. They would rather be “free” than responsible with people around them.
Some are afflicted with garden variety selfishness. They simply don’t care, because they feel themselves immune and invincible, and so they give no thought to people for whom a diagnosis would most likely be a death sentence: the immunocompromised or the elderly or those with lung ailments. They don’t consider the strain on the already taxed healthcare system or the cost to businesses that are more likely not to survive with each passing day or the schools that can’t open and the millions of students whose educations are being further detoured the longer this goes on. They don’t stop to reckon with the ripples of their actions and so they shop and workout and don’t wash their hands, because they see no reason not to.
And so as terrifying as these days already are, it’s a compounding terror to have to worry about the people around you: to watch their recklessness and their disregard for other human beings, to fear your neighbors and friends because they could be perpetuating this disaster through whatever toxic cocktail of partisan politics, bad theology, selfishness, and lack of information isn’t allowing them to see the gravity of the moment.
In the past, Americans were asked to fight and die on foreign soil in order to save other American lives—and they did. Today, we’re asked to simply stay home to accomplish the same noble task and many can’t manage that. Maybe that is where our loss of greatness truly resides.

It’s an indictment of the times and of the people we have become, of the sense of interdependence that we’ve lost; of losing the belief that we are our brother’s keeper and that we are our best when we love our neighbor as ourselves.
I don’t want to be afraid of the people I share this world with. That’s a pretty lousy way to go through life.
I just wish more of them saw beyond themselves and considered the way their lives rub up against other people’s, especially when life and death literally reside in their choices.
I wish they’d stop helping this virus and start helping one another.
I wish they would stay home and end this nightmare.
That would be a story worth living in.

 

[tango]

Except when you look at numbers beyond the fearmongering it doesn't look quite the same.

Mortality rates among the under-50s looks like they run about 0.5%. A report on the BBC News this morning said 91% of fatalities had some pre-existing other condition. That suggests the mortality rate among people without pre-existing conditions drops further.

To suggest people at high risk stay away from crowds is one thing. To mandate the total lockdown of a healthy population for fear they might catch a disease that is almost certainly not going to kill them is another thing entirely. To tell perfectly healthy people they they are not allowed to earn a paycheck to support themselves and their families, while they still have bills to pay, seems like a pretty good example of tyranny to me. To subject untold millions of people to what has been described as the world's largest psychological experiment, without their consent, and without any clear guidance as to when the experiment will end and what support might be available to those damaged by the experiment, is a very different perspective than the "stay home or die" narrative the media seems to love so much.

We're not being asked to "simply stay home", as if even that were a simple thing. We're being mandated to stay home, give up our paychecks, watch the companies we've built shrivel into nothing as the doors are shuttered by government diktat, try to educate our children with no time to prepare for anything, suffer the mental health consequences of social and physical isolation with little to no help, deal with consequences of domestic violence with diminishing opportunities to escape, and face a likelihood of soaring long term unemployment with the associated rise in suicide, alcohol and opioid abuse etc, all in the name of a process that still won't stop the virus. As if that weren't enough we've not only tolerated but actively encouraged governments at all levels to overrule constitutionally guaranteed freedoms with no justification beyond "it's for your own good".

Only today I was helping hand out free meals to school age children. One father came in to collect meals. He's self employed, he cuts grass for a living. Except he's not allowed to do that any more. He still has five kids to feed. Don't worry, he'll get a stimulus check eventually. He and his wife, plus five kids, makes $4,900 as a one-time payment. I hope for his sake that will cover his housing, his bills, and food for a family of seven. Good luck guessing how long it has to last given there still seems to be no endgame and governors are shutting down rural areas based on what they think might be needed in urban areas.

 

[tango]

We are heading toward a revolution if it keeps up and I worry that Trump will use this tio suspend elections and stay in office without being elected, a true disaster

I'll bet that at the first hint that elections might be suspended the virus will vanish into the ether. Perhaps that would encourage the media to focus on survival and recovery rates rather than skewing statistics in ways that make things look worse than they are.

 

[NewCreation435]

Only while this may hinder our ability to be together in person, believers are finding ways to meet online and continue to worship together. And family are actually having to talk to each other and spend time together. It isn't all bad as it turns out

 

[NewCreation435]

I'll bet that at the first hint that elections might be suspended the virus will vanish into the ether. Perhaps that would encourage the media to focus on survival and recovery rates rather than skewing statistics in ways that make things look worse than they are.

So you think that the media is making up the numbers?

 

[hedrick]

I'm reasonably sure that prohibiting all meetings would pass constitutional muster. It isn't aimed specifically at churches, and there are plenty of other ways to exercize our religion. At least in NJ (which is where Murphy is) churches aren't closed. Indeed there's an explicit exception in the stay at home order that lets you leave your house for religious activities. So the only issue is meetings, which applies to everything, not just religion. There's Supreme Court history with exceptions for dealing with epidemics.

 

[hobie]

"Supreme Court on Friday turned away a request from a church in California to block enforcement of state restrictions on attendance at religious services.

The vote was 5 to 4, with Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. joining the court?s four-member liberal wing to form a majority.

'Although California's guidelines place restrictions on places of worship, those restrictions appear consistent with the free exercise clause of the First Amendment,' Chief Justice Roberts wrote in an opinion concurring in the unsigned ruling.

'Similar or more severe restrictions apply to comparable secular gatherings, including lectures, concerts, movie showings, spectator sports and theatrical performances, where large groups of people gather in close proximity for extended periods of time,' the chief justice wrote. 'And the order exempts or treats more leniently only dissimilar activities, such as operating grocery stores, banks and laundromats, in which people neither congregate in large groups nor remain in close proximity for extended periods.'

Justices Clarence Thomas, Samuel A. Alito Jr., Neil M. Gorsuch and Brett M. Kavanaugh noted dissents.

"The church and its congregants simply want to be treated equally to comparable secular businesses," Justice Kavanaugh wrote in a dissenting opinion joined by Justices Thomas and Gorsuch. "California already trusts its residents and any number of businesses to adhere to proper social distancing and hygiene practices."

"The state cannot," Justice Kavanaugh wrote, quoting from an appeals court decision in a different case, "assume the worst when people go to worship but assume the best when people go to work or go about the rest of their daily lives in permitted social settings."

The court's ruling was its first attempt to balance the public health crisis against the Constitution?s protection of religious freedom. And it expanded the Supreme Court's engagement with the consequences of the coronavirus pandemic, after rulings on voting in Wisconsin and prisons in Texas and Ohio.

The case was brought by the South Bay United Pentecostal Church in Chula Vista, Calif., which said Gov. Gavin Newsom, a Democrat, had lost sight of the special status of religion in the constitutional structure.

'The Covid-19 pandemic is a national tragedy', lawyers for the church wrote in their Supreme Court brief, ?but it would be equally tragic if the federal judiciary allowed the 'fog of war' to act as an excuse for violating fundamental constitutional rights....
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/us/supreme-court-churches-coronavirus.html
The full ruling:
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/19a1044_pok0.pdf

 

[hedrick]

What’s interesting is that all the justices agreed that the state could expect churches to follow the same standards as everyone else. The minority argued (implausibly);that California wasn’t doing that.

 

[ARx182]

Not just church, all religious places. I find it extremely stupid that the government is fine with thousands protesting in mass groups but when religious groups start using their religious places again they will be blamed for the inevitable second wave.

 

[tango]

So you think that the media is making up the numbers?

Not sure how I missed this earlier. I think the media is hyping the virus way out of proportion and many numbers are suspect. Last I heard 18 county coroners in PA were disputing official figures (there are 67 counties in PA, so we're talking more than a quarter of counties disputing figures) and anecdotal evidence abounds regarding deaths being listed as COVID when they were not.

Curiously the media now appears relatively unconcerned about the possible spread of the virus at heavily attended protests. You'd almost be forgiven for thinking the virus has magically gone away.

 

[Albion]

For a long time, I just couldn't see how our freedom of religion and our Bill of Rights, along with the Constitution could be set aside unless there was an internal war or overthrow of Americas governance. It's happening..

You are exactly right. All my life I have heard people say that although dictatorships and coups have plagued other countries...that would not be possible in America. That's what they said. We supposedly would not stand for such a thing but would rise up and be ungovernable or something. Yet it is happening right before our eyes and most people are meekly accepting of it.

WHY that is so, probably is worth its own discussion. But if you're interested, try to get it in before discussing it is outlawed.

 

[tango]

You are exactly right. All my life I have heard people say that although dictatorships and coups have plagued other countries...that would not be possible in America. That's what they said. We supposedly would not stand for such a thing but would rise up and be ungovernable or something. Yet it is happening right before our eyes and most people are meekly accepting of it.

WHY that is so, probably is worth its own discussion. But if you're interested, try to get it in before discussing it is outlawed.

It would be nice to think something might be learned from this process. Sadly I suspect all that will be learned is by those who would rule over us, learning how far they can push before they get any meaningful pushback.

I fear society has become sufficiently divided now that it's unlikely any group would stand together to resist, with force if necessary, any further government overreach. That said, having seen the levels of economic and social carnage inflicted on the people "for our own good", perhaps a future attempt would be met more swiftly with overt defiance.

 

[FredVB]

Human inclination overrides institutions thought to be written in stone. The Bill of Rights, enshrined as it is, is not eternal. And votes may overturn anything. With the voting in these days, and with response to visible dissatisfaction, democracy is voted away, and is being eroded away. If you voted and saw your votes fulfilled, that is the results of your votes. We will watch things worsen. If votes still go the same way, it will go a lot worse for democracy and stability. Regardless of dismissal of that, we will see that, and you will know ultimately it was a gamble.