Holy Spirit - given at Pentacost or day of Resurrection?

[psalms 91]

That can be wise. But of course as we read the OP, it is NOT "I choose to believe x,y,z." It's a statement of fact. Yes, originally I too read it and simply saw the whole thing as missstatements, a confusion of assumptions with biblical statements, and frankly, pretty messy and hard to engage. Later, at some prodding, I chose to respond to the statements (again, stated as such, not as beliefs or opinions). My intent and HOPE was not to debate but to cause our friend to see that actually SCRIPTURE itself is not in specific "conflict" as he claimed, but rather that his assumptions seem to himself to not "fit" with the biblical text. I'm sure I failed, I suspect that would be the result no matter what. Maybe someone else benefited from my posts? Or perhaps it was simply a healthy exercise for me?



Thank you very much!

- Josiah

I hope so as that has value and yes others read what we post so it isnt in vain

 

[Stravinsk]

More of YOUR assumptions......

And you seem to be confusing "disciples" with the 11 Apostles, as if they are identical (all disciples being Apostles).

Who did Jesus tell to stay in Jerusalem? Is Cleopas mentioned?

No, Emmaus is 6-8 miles north of Jerusalem (probably), not 70.

And again, you are ASSUMING that there is ONLY ONE giving of the Spirit, that the "Baptized with/by/in the Holy Spirit" is identical to ALL giving of the Spirit.... oh, you seem to have SO MANY assumptions! But your ASSUMPTIONS are not Scripture. Your ASSUMPTIONS not fitting well with Scripture is entirely unrelated to Scripture specifically CONTRADICTING other Scriptures.

And you are ASSUMING a certain time frame..... and you are ASSUMING that all commands EQUALS The Great Commission. So many of your personal assumptions, "apparentlies" .... so many "imagine" ..... so many of your questions substituted for what Scripture says.

Now friend..... respectfully..... I'm not PER SE opposed to questions or assumptions or imaginations. But it's YOUR stuff. YOUR personal feelings, imagination, questions, assumptions are not Scripture, so even if they seem to conflict with what Scripture says, that's not Scripture specifically contradicting Scripture.

LOL. Mate, first of all I didn't say the two on the road to Emmaus were 70 miles away. You like to talk about assumptions, well, there's one of yours.

Second, this really isn't difficult. How far is the Sea of Galilee (also known as Sea of Tiberius) from Jerusalem?

Have a look:

http://www.bible-history.com/map_jesus/MAPJESUSNew_Testament_Cities_Distances.htm

70 miles.

Now according to Matthew, Jesus instructs the disciples that he will go ahead of them into Galilee:

Matthew 28:10

To the mountain in Galilee: Matthew 28:16

Now, Mt Gilboa is the southern most mountain in Galilee. How far is Jerusalem from Mt Gilboa?

83 miles.

http://www.distancesfrom.com/distan...980788.aspx?IsHistory=1&GMapHistoryID=6980788

If it's Mt Tabor then it's 97 miles.

This is very simple. On the day of the Resurrection the 2 on the road to Emmaus go to see "the 11" - and yes, this refers to the disciples...duh...not just some random 11 men you imagine they could be to make everything fit...and these 11 are where according to Luke? Jerusalem.

Jerusalem. That's 83 miles from the place Jesus tells them to go.

Please quote the text that states these two men are on their way to Galilee.
Please quote the text that states these two men knew of the instruction to go to Galilee.
Please quote the text that states Jesus - immediately after His resurrection - reappeared in Galilee and passively waited there because all 11 (plus the two men from Emmaus) IMMEDIATELY arrived there.

You are inserting straw men. I didn't say the 2 men on the road to Emmaus were on their way to Galilee. I said the 11 remaining disciples, according to Luke's account in this story are in Jerusalem, according to the text where it says the 2 on the road to Emmaus go to meet them.

 

[Alithis]

LOL. Mate, first of all I didn't say the two on the road to Emmaus were 70 miles away. You like to talk about assumptions, well, there's one of yours.

Second, this really isn't difficult. How far is the Sea of Galilee (also known as Sea of Tiberius) from Jerusalem?

Have a look:

http://www.bible-history.com/map_jesus/MAPJESUSNew_Testament_Cities_Distances.htm

70 miles.

Now according to Matthew, Jesus instructs the disciples that he will go ahead of them into Galilee:

Matthew 28:10

To the mountain in Galilee: Matthew 28:16

Now, Mt Gilboa is the southern most mountain in Galilee. How far is Jerusalem from Mt Gilboa?

83 miles.

http://www.distancesfrom.com/distan...980788.aspx?IsHistory=1&GMapHistoryID=6980788

If it's Mt Tabor then it's 97 miles.

This is very simple. On the day of the Resurrection the 2 on the road to Emmaus go to see "the 11" - and yes, this refers to the disciples...duh...not just some random 11 men you imagine they could be to make everything fit...and these 11 are where according to Luke? Jerusalem.

Jerusalem. That's 83 miles from the place Jesus tells them to go.







You are inserting straw men. I didn't say the 2 men on the road to Emmaus were on their way to Galilee. I said the 11 remaining disciples, according to Luke's account in this story are in Jerusalem, according to the text where it says the 2 on the road to Emmaus go to meet them.

so whats the problem ? he appeared suddenly in thier midst at one time when they were in a locked room .. he transcends time and material world .it also elsewhere says he appeared to about 500 ..of his followers
it also says the two were two of his followers .. and he had more then 12 and more then 120 .. so they neither need be of the 12 nor of the 120 . your just acting in unbelief and sowing unbelief

 

[Stravinsk]

so whats the problem ? he appeared suddenly in thier midst at one time when they were in a locked room .. he transcends time and material world .it also elsewhere says he appeared to about 500 ..of his followers
it also says the two were two of his followers .. and he had more then 12 and more then 120 .. so they neither need be of the 12 nor of the 120 . your just acting in unbelief and sowing unbelief

Did you read what you quoted? I'm talking about the disciples whereabouts.

According to Luke's Gospel, the 2 persons who are speaking with Jesus, after he leaves, they immediately go to tell the 11. The text says this is just before evening.

Where do they go? Jerusalem. To meet the 11 in Jerusalem - and this is evening time.

If the 11 are in Jerusalem as it says in Luke, this is a huge problem because according to Matthew they were to meet Jesus (and did meet him) at the mountain in Galilee. The southern most mountain in Galilee is 83 miles from Jerusalem.

So what's up? Did they meet Jesus at the mountain in Galilee then fast track it to Jerusalem to be told the news of his resurrection by the 2 on the road to Emmaus? 83 miles is quite some distance to walk. Maybe all the disciples suddenly came into money and got horses? hehe

 

[Alithis]

Did you read what you quoted? I'm talking about the disciples whereabouts.

According to Luke's Gospel, the 2 persons who are speaking with Jesus, after he leaves, they immediately go to tell the 11. The text says this is just before evening.

Where do they go? Jerusalem. To meet the 11 in Jerusalem - and this is evening time.

If the 11 are in Jerusalem as it says in Luke, this is a huge problem because according to Matthew they were to meet Jesus (and did meet him) at the mountain in Galilee. The southern most mountain in Galilee is 83 miles from Jerusalem.

So what's up? Did they meet Jesus at the mountain in Galilee then fast track it to Jerusalem to be told the news of his resurrection by the 2 on the road to Emmaus? 83 miles is quite some distance to walk. Maybe all the disciples suddenly came into money and got horses? hehe

before i go and look into it properly and find your obvious error , being that the scripture wil prove truthful and you a mere doubter of truth ..I will address your use of the term- "hehe "-

to take such delight in bringing to attention what is no more then an apparent contradiction (soon to be exposed for its falsehood (i have such faith in the word of God ) is nothing more then demonic in nature . for only the demonic realm would take delight in casting doubt on the word of God . but as it is with all lies .. the lord wil expose it for the lie it is .

 

[Stravinsk]

before i go and look into it properly and find your obvious error , being that the scripture wil prove truthful and you a mere doubter of truth ..I will address your use of the term- "hehe "-

to take such delight in bringing to attention what is no more then an apparent contradiction (soon to be exposed for its falsehood (i have such faith in the word of God ) is nothing more then demonic in nature . for only the demonic realm would take delight in casting doubt on the word of God . but as it is with all lies .. the lord wil expose it for the lie it is .

Good luck with that.

Re: Demonic.

I laugh at things I find humorous. Nothing to do with demons.

Btw, can you tell me when Yeshua hand picked Luke to be a witness? John and Matthew are hand picked. I affirm their testimonies are true. It is for this reason it is easy to see Luke's lies and even though it *is* a most serious matter, I find it humorous the lengths many people will go to make the stories agree. Perhaps I shouldn't, because what it really is is just downright sad.

 

[psalms 91]

Good luck with that.

Re: Demonic.

I laugh at things I find humorous. Nothing to do with demons.

Btw, can you tell me when Yeshua hand picked Luke to be a witness? John and Matthew are hand picked. I affirm their testimonies are true. It is for this reason it is easy to see Luke's lies and even though it *is* a most serious matter, I find it humorous the lengths many people will go to make the stories agree. Perhaps I shouldn't, because what it really is is just downright sad.

What is sad is you obvious ignoring of what is being presented thatshows what you say to be false. As for Luke it might help you to read more about him/ As for convincing you of anything I will leave to others with more patience as I think it is futile

 

[Josiah]

According to Luke's Gospel, the 2 persons who are speaking with Jesus, after he leaves, they immediately go to tell the 11. The text says this is just before evening.

Where do they go? Jerusalem. To meet the 11 in Jerusalem - and this is evening time.

If the 11 are in Jerusalem as it says in Luke, this is a huge problem because according to Matthew they were to meet Jesus (and did meet him) at the mountain in Galilee.

1. That's no contradiction.

2. The ENTIRELY of your (admittedly VERY hard to follow) "point" is that Scripture IN YOUR VIEW doesn't quite jive with YOUR assumptions. Okay..... fine..... but friend, what in the world does that have to do with SCRIPTURE specifically CONTRADICTING Scripture. That's what I fail to understand and what you persistently refuse to discuss.

3. Okay, it seems it was Easter evening and the 11 are still in Jerusalem. Now, the MOST you could make of that is that YOU ASSUME (because the bible never remotely says it, not at all) that Jesus told them they had to have AT THAT MOMENT, that micorsecond, on a supersonic jet, and get their ______ to Galiliee within 15 ponderous beats of their heart. There are SO many (weird) assumptions you insert that it's sincerely hard to follow them all, keep them all in mind, my friend. But even with that ASSUMPTION (and what an odd one it is), the most you could say is that the Apostles weren't exactly following Jesus' instruction (what else is new!!!!!!!!!!). Now, IF you had a verse that stated, "IMMEDIATELY upon realizing Jesus rose from the dead, at 9:05 AM, they RAN out of town and headed for Galilee!" and then a verse that said, "The Apostles never left Jerusalem." Then you'd have a contradiction. What you have shown is that it may be the Apostles didn't leave Jerusalem AS QUICKLY as YOU ASSUME they should have. Apples and oranges. I think we're all left scratching our heads wondering what the ______ you are all worked up about. Wondering what in the world you are talking about.

4. And you seem to forget, they were told to WAIT in Jerusalem. Yes, they were also told to go to Galilee. But that is not a contradiction unless you can quote the verse that states that they were to leave Jerusalem for Galilee within 5 seconds of His giving that instruction. I think you are simply substituting your assumptions for what the texts actually says, you are simply showing that YOUR ASSUMPTIONS at times seem to not fit well with what the text says. Okay.... fine..... but that has NOTHING at all, NOTHING whatsoever to do with SCRIPTURE specifically contradicting SCRIPTURE. Indeed, you've never even attempted to quote two verses and show a contradiction - you just keep comparing Scrpture to YOUR questions, YOUR imagination, YOUR assumptions.

The southern most mountain in Galilee is 83 miles from Jerusalem.

Okay, but you were talking about 2 men on the way to EMMAUS. My point is that EMMAUS is not 83 miles from Jerusalem, so asked why you raise this point about 83 miles.

Here was yet another case where your ASSUMPTIONS seem to be the issue. While I admit I'm having a hard time following what point you are TRYING to make, it seemed perhaps you assumed the 2 men on the road to Emmaus were Apostles, who had heard Jesus' instruction to go to Galilee but not the one to stay in Jerusalem, and your assumptiion that when Jesus said to go to Galilee, He insisted they do so NOW, leaving before the next beat of His heart, on a supersonic jet, IMMEDIATELY (thus ignoring the instruction to say in Jerusalem until a certain thing happening). You were trying to suggest, it seemed, that these two Apostles (but the Scriptures NEVER state they were Apostles!) received the instruction to go to Galilee (but the Scriptures NEVER state that!), Jesus ordered them to leave IMMEDIATELY - within one minute of His saying that (But Scripture NEVER says that!) and thus they were not doing what Jesus ordered them to do (which would NOT be a contradiction of Scripture anyway - it would only be yet another - still another - example of the Apostles not going as Jesus desired).

While I'd agree that this isn't specifically stated, it's quite natural to "take" this as Jesus gave the 11 (which would exclude your obsession with the two men from Emmaus) received the instruction to stay in Jerusalem until they recieved something and then go to Galilee where He'd meet them. While the text doesn't say that, I think that's the most natural "take."

Now, yet ANOTHER assumption of yours SEEMS to be (again, I think we're all having a hard time keeping all the assumptions in mind) that all givings of the Spirit are the same. I have no idea where you got that ASSUMPTION. Yes, they would receive power in Jerusalem. They'd receive the "Baptism of/with/by the Holy Spirit" in Galilee. So what? They aren't the same event. You ASSUME something..... and to YOU, your ASSUMPTION doesn't seem to "fit" the text. Fine. Happens. But that has nothing whatsoever, nothing remotely, to do with Scripture contradicting Scripture. AT MOST, it's Scripture not fiting with YOUR ASSUMPTIONS. Apples and oranges, IMO.


I hope you'd at least consider this.


Thank you.




- Josiah

 

[Stravinsk]

Just wanted to say - still awaiting Alithis's response.

 

[Josiah]

I think we've covered this. The "problem" is not any contradiction of the texts, the "problem" is that the numerous assumptions, questions, imagining, etc. that YOU make don't seem to "fit" very well with the texts, in your opinion.

 

[Stravinsk]

I think we've covered this. The "problem" is not any contradiction of the texts, the "problem" is that the numerous assumptions, questions, imagining, etc. that YOU make don't seem to "fit" very well with the texts, in your opinion.

If you would like to draw a conclusion that you think fits everyone who reads this thread, because you have responded to it, that is entirely your business.

I'm still awaiting Alithis's response.