Holy Spirit - given at Pentacost or day of Resurrection?

[Josiah]

I am not making assumptions and there is definitely a contradiction between John/Matthew and Luke's Acts as I have already outlined.

Tell me plainly, did Yeshua give the great commission in Galilee as recorded in Matthew on the same day as Resurrection? If the answer is "yes, He did" - then why bother telling the disciples to wait in Jerusalem after 40 days to receive "power from on high" to do it?

Was Jesus just kidding when he said in John 20:21-23 that he was sending the disciples out just like the Father sent him? Is there an error in the text where immediately after saying this, he says "and with that, he breathed on them saying, Receive ye the Holy Spirit, if you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven, if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven"?

Was all this talk just mumbo jumbo in preparation for the "big event" in Acts that was to happen 40+ days later in a totally different location?

I'm sorry you conclude that Scripture doesn't answer your questions. And frankly, I don't know why they even matter. But you've not remotely shown that there is any contradiction here. I read your opening post several times (and for some time didn't reply) because I entirely, wholly failed to see your point, where the contradiction is. Yes - you've made it very clear - YOU have QUESTIONS based on these accounts, and in YOUR mind, don't understand how they "fit" together. Okay. Fine. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with the texts contradicting each other. I entirely fail to see your point, friend. It seems no one else does, either. Maybe if you re-write the opening post.... give a fact, compare it to a fact, show that it's impossible to both be true.... leave out YOUR words, YOUR questions, YOUR pondering (because you are not either text)..... and maybe that would help? And again, friend, just because you have questions doesn't mean there's a contradiction. And it's not mandated that things can only be said ONCE (and never again) or even that they can't have different implications on different occasions or to different people.




Thank you.


- Josiah

 

[Stravinsk]

I'm sorry you conclude that Scripture doesn't answer your questions. And frankly, I don't know why they even matter. But you've not remotely shown that there is any contradiction here. I read your opening post several times (and for some time didn't reply) because I entirely, wholly failed to see your point, where the contradiction is. Yes - you've made it very clear - YOU have QUESTIONS based on these accounts, and in YOUR mind, don't understand how they "fit" together. Okay. Fine. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with the texts contradicting each other. I entirely fail to see your point, friend. It seems no one else does, either. Maybe if you re-write the opening post.... give a fact, compare it to a fact, show that it's impossible to both be true.... leave out YOUR words, YOUR questions, YOUR pondering (because you are not either text)..... and maybe that would help? And again, friend, just because you have questions doesn't mean there's a contradiction. And it's not mandated that things can only be said ONCE (and never again) or even that they can't have different implications on different occasions or to different people.




Thank you.


- Josiah

I'm sorry if I have been unclear.

Let's take this step by step.

According to Matthew Jesus tells the disciples to go to Galilee to meet Him. (Matthew 28:10, 28:16)

Again according to Matthew, the great commission is given there (Matt 28:16-20)

Is this true, or not?

 

[Josiah]

Let's unpack this.....



Acts 1:4-9

4. On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

What can be definitively learned from this passage:

1) Over 40 days, no Holy Spirit yet given to the apostles

The text in no way says that. Indeed - since they are believers, they have the Holy Spirit in some sense and fashion, because "no one CAN believe without the Holy Spirit."

But of course, the Holy Spirit might be given in a rich diversity of ways, and for a rich diversity of purposes.

I think you ASSUME that there can be only ONE giving, only in ONE way, for only ONE purpose and to only ONE degree. I don't think Scripture supports your assumption, but in any case, you are assuming this. I think your ASSUMPTION conflicts with the texts, but the texts do not conflict with each other.

2) Messiah is promising that it is yet to come

Yes. There will be a BAPTIZING of/by/with the Holy Spirit. He's not predicting that the Holy Spirit will come for the first time or only time. Or that the Holy Spirit can/will ONLY come to them in THAT way and in THAT place. But yes, He is promising this specific "Baptizing with/by/of the Holy Spirit" will come to them.

The BAPTIZING of/for/by the Holy Spirit is traditionally seen as recorded in Acts 2:5-12 (although, I admit, it doesn't specially state that). In Acts 2, they are in Jerusalem. But of course, He gave the Great Commission on a different occasion, it's recorded in Matthew 28 and seems to be briefly after Easter in Galilee.

3) Messiah is taken up after uttering this statement, again without the giving of the Holy Spirit.

Again, you are assuming they didn't have the Holy Spirit. Actually, they could not have been believers if they didn't have the Holy Spirit. But yes, this "BAPTIZING of/with/by the Holy Spirit" didn't happen - or at least that's the most direct "take" on the text.

4) One of the purposes of the Holy Spirit is to empower the disciples to be apostles in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to "the ends of the earth"

5) JERUSALEM, NOT GALILEE, is the place where this is to happen

It doesn't say that ANYWHERE.

If Acts 2 is the fulfillment, they were in Jerusalem for the "Baptizing of/for/by the Holy Spirit."

Lost me again.

Here is the problem: On the very same evening of Resurrection day. John 20:19-23 The - very - same - evening. No instructions to wait after already waiting 40 days.

Let's quote this text as you did with Acts:

19. On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

20. When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.

21. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.”

22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

What about the WHERE? Well according to Matthew, it is in Galilee! NOT JERUSALEM.

Matthew never mentions this specific Baptism by/of/from the Holy Spirit at all.

Galilee is where Messiah gives the Great commission. What about John? ALSO GALILEE. The disciples meet Jesus while they are fishing on the shore of the Sea of Tiberius, which is another name for the sea of Galilee.

Okay, so your point is Jesus gave the Great Commission only once.... and that was in Galilee. Okay. Sorry, I'm not seeing where the texts contradict themselves.

Where is any "contradiction" in these? You didn't say.

Yes, at Easter, Jesus gives a gift of the Holy Spirit. Nothing here is said of the Great Commission.... nothing is said of any "Baptism with/of/by the Holy Spirit.' Nothing is said of baptizing and teaching. These two texts not only are NOT - in any way - in conflict, they aren't even speaking of the same thing.

No - because it is given with the same purpose - to empower the disciples to become apostles and His witnesses. Matthew's Witness also has the Great Commission (empowerment of the Disciples to become Apostles) at the same time - day of Resurrection - NOT after 40 days and NOT after ascending in the heavens.

The only "conflict" is your ASSUMPTIONS (quite unbiblical, IMO) with the Bible, not the Bible with itself. The Holy Spirit is given in a rich diversity of ways, senses and for various purposes. I have the Holy Spirit because I believe.... and because He comes in Word and Sacrament. That doesn't mean that ALL believers since Adam and Eve have the SAME giving for the SAME purpose. Again, no one CAN say "Jesus is Lord" without this giving of the Holy Spirit. The giving of the Holy Spirit is usually associated with EMPOWERING various things (not necessarily all things), especially things to which someone is especially called to. It's been a long time since Sunday School for me, but I seem to recall Samson being given the Spirit so that he could cause those pillars to fall.... does that mean that all Christians can do that? (Perhaps I'm not recalling the story correctly).

LUKE's ACCOUNT IN ACTS CONTRADICTS IT ALL.

Not in the least. Not at all. Sorry, I entirely fail to see your point.

Let's take this step by step.

According to Matthew Jesus tells the disciples to go to Galilee to meet Him. (Matthew 28:10, 28:16)

Again according to Matthew, the great commission is given there (Matt 28:16-20)

Is this true, or not?

True. What verse states that Jesus only gave the command only once - but it was not in Galilee but elsewhere?





Blessings!


- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

Don't think about quantity when you hear about receiving the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit isn't some gas that fills us like a balloon.

 

[Lamb]

Adding since there was confusion about my post...it was only directed to the topic and not toward other posters.

The Holy Spirit is God and there are instances in scripture where people were filled with the Holy Spirit and were already believers so it's not about quantity. It's about the Holy Spirit filling the person with what is needed to do His will.

 

[Alithis]

I am not making assumptions and there is definitely a contradiction between John/Matthew and Luke's Acts as I have already outlined.

Tell me plainly, did Yeshua give the great commission in Galilee as recorded in Matthew on the same day as Resurrection? If the answer is "yes, He did" - then why bother telling the disciples to wait in Jerusalem after 40 days to receive "power from on high" to do it?

Was Jesus just kidding when he said in John 20:21-23 that he was sending the disciples out just like the Father sent him? Is there an error in the text where immediately after saying this, he says "and with that, he breathed on them saying, Receive ye the Holy Spirit, if you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven, if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven"?

Was all this talk just mumbo jumbo in preparation for the "big event" in Acts that was to happen 40+ days later in a totally different location?

there IS a contradiction .. but it is not in scripture.it is the contradiction between sctripture and your unbeleif . but thanks for getting josiah and i onto an agreeable point lol ,we needed that after our logger heads of late .

 

[Alithis]

Don't think about quantity when you hear about receiving the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit isn't some gas that fills us like a balloon.

:flame:






add: by that emoticon im inferring your reply is "on fire " ... not- its a flame lol

 

[Stravinsk]

Here are the facts:

Holy Spirit:

Matthew - not said explicitly but assumed to be given with the great commission. No double speak allowed here. Preaching to the nations is directly connected with the giving of the Holy Spirit, in all the Gospels AND Acts.
Place given: Galilee
Time Given: Day of Resurrection

John - given explicitly on day of Resurrection.
Place given: Galilee
Time given: Day of Resurrection

Luke - great commission not directly connected with HS post resurrection
Place given: ? The end of this Gospel has Jesus leading his disciples out to Bethany, where He is taken up into the sky
Time given: ? - we must read Luke's Acts to find this out.

Acts - Jesus appears to disciples over 40 days at different times, and at one such time instructs the disciples wait in Jerusalem. The Holy spirit is the gift from the Father that Jesus reminds them that they heard him speak about. (Acts 1:4-5)

Full stop. Jesus REMINDS them about the gift that they heard him speak about. That's right, they needed to be reminded. Curious that, if they had the Holy Spirit already or some "half holy spirit", why remind them of the gift they already had?

Place given: Jerusalem
Time Given: Waaay past the Resurrection - at Pentecost


Christian Mental Gymnastics:

1) It wasn't the full holy spirit the time it was given prior!
2) It was given twice (meaning it was lost the first time??)

I can just imagine the scenario. The Disciples, already haven been given the HS and direction to preach to the nations for over 40+ days now, now encounter Jesus and He reminds them that the Holy Spirit is coming in just a few days, because they will need it to preach to the nations.

It must be fun twisting one's head around stuff like this turning clear logic into a sort of muddled thinking akin to a runny egg. Such is faith that just believes everything that's written, I guess. But Christians will say "you don't have the holy spirit. That's why you don't understand or accept".

Of Course. :lol:

Edit: I just skimmed through Gospel of Luke again, and found this:

According to Luke 24:33-34 - the two on the Road to Emmaus, after encountering Jesus went straight to Jerusalem, where the 11 were.

Straight to Jerusalem. No instructions to go to Galilee. In fact, reading on into Acts 1 - they are instructed to STAY in Jerusalem. Makes perfect sense with Luke's account. A plain reading of it from the end of Gospel of Luke to Acts first few chapters one would never think they left Jerusalem prior to Pentecost. At least Luke is consistent here - but it also does not allow for a special side trip to Galilee to meet with Jesus to get the Holy Spirit then run back to Jerusalem to get it again.

Edit 2: What the heck were the 11 disciples doing in Jerusalem on the day of the Resurrection so that the 2 from the road to Emmaus go to meet them there? They were just in Galilee at the time of Crucifixion and Resurrection, then run off to Jerusalem for some reason??? Folks this is like at least 70 miles away, traveling by foot or horse.

Luke is a liar.

 

[Josiah]

Here are the facts:

Holy Spirit:

Matthew - not said explicitly but assumed to be given with the great commission. No double speak allowed here. Preaching to the nations is directly connected with the giving of the Holy Spirit, in all the Gospels AND Acts.
Place given: Galilee
Time Given: Day of Resurrection

Ah, so you conclude that your assumption contradicts Scripture, but you've not remotely shown that Scripture contradicts Scripture.

See post #23 above.

John - given explicitly on day of Resurrection.
Place given: Galilee
Time given: Day of Resurrection

Your assumptions are the issue again.

You assume there is only one giving of the Holy Spirit.
You assume that the specific "Baptism of/by/with the Holy Spirit" is the same as all givings of the Spirit.

Your assumptions perhaps contradict Scripture but you are offering nothing that Scripture contradicts Scripture.

See post # 23.

Luke - great commission not directly connected with HS post resurrection
Place given: ? The end of this Gospel has Jesus leading his disciples out to Bethany, where He is taken up into the sky
Time given: ? - we must read Luke's Acts to find this out.

See post # 23.

. Curious that

Your own questions, assumptions and imagination may not be specifically answered by Scripture to your satisfaction...... but, firiend, respectfully, as you realize, none of that has anything whatsoever with Scripture contradicting Scripture. Your assumptions may be, but not Scripture.

You ASSUME that the Holy Spirit can be given only once and is always identical in every way. None of the texts you note remotely say that.

See post # 23. All this is addressed there.

Christian Mental Gymnastics:

1) It wasn't the full holy spirit the time it was given prior!
2) It was given twice (meaning it was lost the first time??)

The Holy Spirit is given OFTEN. In a rich diversity of ways and for a rich diversity of reasons. Your ASSUMPTION that there is only one giving.... that it thus is singular in terms of everything.... that it is singular in terms of receivers..... all those assumptions and more are just YOUR assumptions (quite unbiblical, I might add). Yes, your assumptions may well be conflicting with Scripture but you have shown NOTHING to indicate that Scripture contradicts Scripture. And you seem to appoint yourself to ask questions and then if you conclude you can't answer them, ergo Scripture is specifically contradicting itself .... friend..... obviously what is occuring is that you aren't seeing the answers to your own questions, that's entirely unrelated to Scripture contradicting itself.

See post # 23 where all this is addressed.

I can just imagine the scenario.

Again, your ASSUMPTION that the Holy Spirit can only be given ONCE, and that ALL such giving is identical. It's just your ASSUMPTION (quite unbiblical), not something Scripture remotely says. YOUR ASSUMPTION may not "fit" with the texts, but YOUR ASSUMPTIONS (unbiblical ones, I might add) conflicting with the texts is entirely, wholly, entirely unrelated to the texts being in CONTRADICTION. And you appoint yourself to ask a lot of questions and appoint yourself to answer them (all based on your own assumptions rather than anything Scripture states) may not be answered to your satisfaction, but that too is entirely, wholly, completely unrelated to Scripture CONTRADICTING Scripture.

See post #23 where all this is addressed.

Christians will say

What you claim some Christian(s) may or may not have said is entirely, wholly, completely unrelated to anything in this thread. Yes, I don 't doubt, you can find someone among the 2.2 billion Christians who state something that specifically CONTRADICTS Scripture but your claim is not that there's a person (or any number of persons) who contradict Scripture, your insistence is that Scripture specifically CONTRADICTS Scripture. Let's try to stick to the issue.

See post # 23 where all this is addressed.




Thank you.


- Josiah




.

 

[Stravinsk]

*snicker* Josiah believes that the 11 disciples ran off to Jerusalem sometime between the time of the resurrection and witness of Yeshua in Galilee where the 2 from the road to Emmaus went to meet them. It's around 70 miles away...but they had to be there is Luke's Gospel is to believed.

It's flipping laughable.

 

[Josiah]

*snicker* Josiah believes that the 11 disciples ran off to Jerusalem sometime between the time of the resurrection and witness of Yeshua in Galilee where the 2 from the road to Emmaus went to meet them. It's around 70 miles away...but they had to be there is Luke's Gospel is to believed.

It's flipping laughable.

Again, your assumptions and imagination are the problem. Not any "CONTRADICTION."

On Easter Sunday, it may be that the 11 are all in Jerusalem. It may be that that afternoon, 2 disciples (it doesn't say they were both part of the 11) were going home. Jesus made several resurrection appearances, one of them was to those two. I see no specific CONTRADICTION to anything Jesus predicted or anything Scripture records. Perhaps your own personal ASSUMPTIONS have a problem with the texts, but that would be your own personal assumptions that are in conflict, not Scirpture specifically CONTRADICTING Scripture. It seems you not only need to substitute your assumptions for the texts, but do some amazing mental gymnastics to come up with any claim.... but even then, it's YOUR personal assumptions that seem to be the issue.


See post # 23 and 29.




.

 

[Stravinsk]

Again, your assumptions and imagination are the problem. Not any "CONTRADICTION."


See post # 23 and 29.

I quoted the text. No assumption. Are the 11 disciples in Jerusalem when the 2 from the road to Emmaus go to meet them on the day of Resurrection?

Lol. Mate, it's around 70 miles away, and they are traveling by foot or horse. What are they doing there if Yeshua has instructed them to go the place in Galilee?

Runny egg. Your mind by blind faith.

 

[Josiah]

double post, SORRY

 

[Josiah]

I quoted the text. No assumption. Are the 11 disciples in Jerusalem when the 2 from the road to Emmaus go to meet them on the day of Resurrection?

The text doesn't say.

The two DISCIPLES on the road to Emmaus ( a little town just up the road) need not be seen as two of the 11, the text says no such thing (if fact, the names one of the two and that's NOT one of the 11, the other is unnamed but seems to be from Emmaus and none of the 11 were from that town). These are DISCIPLES - close enough to to heard of Easter and to see the Tomb, but not Apostles.

Lol. Mate, it's around 70 miles away, and they are traveling by foot or horse.

Although the texts don't say (thus, can't CONTRADICT), most scholars place the town of Emmaus about 10-12 Km from Jerusalem. No, I don't find it unrealistic for two Christians to walk or ride that distance. But again, you seem to be substituting YOUR assumptions, questions, ideas of how far one can reasonably walk, etc. for what Scripture states.

What are they doing there if Yeshua has instructed them to go the place in Galilee?

Again, you seem to be confusing questions YOU have for statements of Scripture. YOUR OWN personal questions may not be answered to your satisfaction in Scripture, but that's entirely, wholly, completely, totally unrelated to SCRIPTURE specifically contradicting itself. It MAY - at most - be contradicting YOU, but that's another issue.



Two men are on their way to this small village maybe 6 or 8 miles up the road, north of JErusalem. It appears to be Easter afternoon (verse 21). One we know is NOT an Apostle (we have no idea who the other man is, only that he is from Emmaus and no Apostle was from that town). The text does not tell us that they knew about Jesus' instruction to go to Galilee.

Sorry, I don't see where this account specifically CONTRADICTS anything in Scripture. And you haven't even attempted to document any contradiction.

And you seem to be changing the issues in your own opening post. Why?


Concerning the OP, see posts # 23 and 29 above.




Thank you.


Josiah





.

 

[Stravinsk]

The text doesn't say.

LOL! Yes it does...just read it...I've already quoted it...the 2 from Emmaus are talking to Jesus the day of the Resurrection (Luke 24:13-16), and as soon as they recognize Him according to Luke, they run off to Jerusalem to meet the 11 disciples -Luke 24:33-35

Luke has the disciples in Jerusalem (some 70 miles away from Galilee) on the day of Resurrection...but apparently...they are to travel to Galilee to meet Jesus, receive the great commission (and the holy spirit) then travel back to Jerusalem to get the Holy Spirit again!

Mate...did the disciples meet John Luke Picard and fast travel between Galilee where they meet Jesus and Jerusalem by way of some sort of "beam me up scotty" technology that was not known at the time??

ROFL!!!!

 

[Josiah]

LOL! Yes it does...just read it...I've already quoted it...the 2 from Emmaus are talking to Jesus the day of the Resurrection (Luke 24:13-16), and as soon as they recognize Him according to Luke, they run off to Jerusalem to meet the 11 disciples -Luke 24:33-35

Luke has the disciples in Jerusalem (some 70 miles away from Galilee) on the day of Resurrection...but apparently..they are to travel to Galilee to meet Jesus, receive the great commission (and the holy spirit) then travel back to Jerusalem to get the Holy Spirit again!

More of YOUR assumptions......

And you seem to be confusing "disciples" with the 11 Apostles, as if they are identical (all disciples being Apostles).

Who did Jesus tell to stay in Jerusalem? Is Cleopas mentioned?

No, Emmaus is 6-8 miles north of Jerusalem (probably), not 70.

And again, you are ASSUMING that there is ONLY ONE giving of the Spirit, that the "Baptized with/by/in the Holy Spirit" is identical to ALL giving of the Spirit.... oh, you seem to have SO MANY assumptions! But your ASSUMPTIONS are not Scripture. Your ASSUMPTIONS not fitting well with Scripture is entirely unrelated to Scripture specifically CONTRADICTING other Scriptures.

And you are ASSUMING a certain time frame..... and you are ASSUMING that all commands EQUALS The Great Commission. So many of your personal assumptions, "apparentlies" .... so many "imagine" ..... so many of your questions substituted for what Scripture says.

Now friend..... respectfully..... I'm not PER SE opposed to questions or assumptions or imaginations. But it's YOUR stuff. YOUR personal feelings, imagination, questions, assumptions are not Scripture, so even if they seem to conflict with what Scripture says, that's not Scripture specifically contradicting Scripture.

Mate...did the disciples meet John Luke Picard and fast travel between Galilee where they meet Jesus and Jerusalem by way of some sort of "beam me up scotty" technology that was not known at the time??

ROFL!!!!

Please quote the text that states these two men are on their way to Galilee.
Please quote the text that states these two men knew of the instruction to go to Galilee.
Please quote the text that states Jesus - immediately after His resurrection - reappeared in Galilee and passively waited there because all 11 (plus the two men from Emmaus) IMMEDIATELY arrived there.


So many assumptions you make, my friend.....
Respectfully, your assumptions may not "fit" well with what Scripture states. Perhaps. But YOUR PERSONAL ASSUMPTIONS and questions are entirely, wholly, completely, totally unrelated to Scripture contradicting itself. I'm sure you know and will admit that.


To the issues of the OP, see Posts # 23 and 29.


Sincerely, would you at least consider this?



Thank you.


- Josiah




.

 

[psalms 91]

More of YOUR assumptions......

And you seem to be confusing "disciples" with the 11 Apostles, as if they are identical (all disciples being Apostles).

Who did Jesus tell to stay in Jerusalem? Is Cleopas mentioned?

No, Emmaus is 6-8 miles north of Jerusalem (probably), not 70.

And again, you are ASSUMING that there is ONLY ONE giving of the Spirit, that the "Baptized with/by/in the Holy Spirit" is identical to ALL giving of the Spirit.... oh, you seem to have SO MANY assumptions! But your ASSUMPTIONS are not Scripture. Your ASSUMPTIONS not fitting well with Scripture is entirely unrelated to Scripture specifically CONTRADICTING other Scriptures.

And you are ASSUMING a certain time frame..... and you are ASSUMING that all commands EQUALS The Great Commission. So many of your personal assumptions, "apparentlies" .... so many "imagine" ..... so many of your questions substituted for what Scripture says.

Now friend..... respectfully..... I'm not PER SE opposed to questions or assumptions or imaginations. But it's YOUR stuff. YOUR personal feelings, imagination, questions, assumptions are not Scripture, so even if they seem to conflict with what Scripture says, that's not Scripture specifically contradicting Scripture.







Please quote the text that states these two men are on their way to Galilee.
Please quote the text that states these two men knew of the instruction to go to Galilee.
Please quote the text that states Jesus - immediately after His resurrection - reappeared in Galilee and passively waited there because all 11 (plus the two men from Emmaus) IMMEDIATELY arrived there.


So many assumptions you make, my friend.....
Respectfully, your assumptions may not "fit" well with what Scripture states. Perhaps. But YOUR PERSONAL ASSUMPTIONS and questions are entirely, wholly, completely, totally unrelated to Scripture contradicting itself. I'm sure you know and will admit that.


To the issues of the OP, see Posts # 23 and 29.


Sincerely, would you at least consider this?



Thank you.


- Josiah




.

Sometimes you have to know when to jst back away and let people believe what they wil

 

[Tigger]

Sometimes you have to know when to jst back away and let people believe what they wil

Sometimes but this time the poster being replied to entered the discussion on their own free will casting aspersions and misconceptions upon God's Holy Word. Sometimes we are called to give a defense for the faith.

 

[psalms 91]

Agreed and I think that has been done and the error pointed out, it is now up to the poster to accept the truth or not

 

[Josiah]

Sometimes you have to know when to jst back away and let people believe what they wil

That can be wise. But of course as we read the OP, it is NOT "I choose to believe x,y,z." It's a statement of fact. Yes, originally I too read it and simply saw the whole thing as missstatements, a confusion of assumptions with biblical statements, and frankly, pretty messy and hard to engage. Later, at some prodding, I chose to respond to the statements (again, stated as such, not as beliefs or opinions). My intent and HOPE was not to debate but to cause our friend to see that actually SCRIPTURE itself is not in specific "conflict" as he claimed, but rather that his assumptions seem to himself to not "fit" with the biblical text. I'm sure I failed, I suspect that would be the result no matter what. Maybe someone else benefited from my posts? Or perhaps it was simply a healthy exercise for me?



Thank you very much!

- Josiah