Holy Spirit - given at Pentacost or day of Resurrection?

[Stravinsk]

Follow up thread to the schisms and heresies thread below.

Purpose of thread is to discuss the difference in what may seem a trivial difference, but is in actuality a contradiction that cannot be true at both times.

In the book of Acts, written by Luke, chapter 1, we are told that after the Resurrection of Messiah, He appeared over a period of 40 days to the apostles giving them many proofs he was alive Acts 1:3, and then this:

Acts 1:4-9

On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

This cannot be clearer. The gift of the Holy Spirit was, after 40 days, still days away. The men were to wait in Jerusalem. After uttering these words, according Acts, Messiah is taken up into the sky.

What can be definitively learned from this passage:

1) Over 40 days, no Holy Spirit yet given to the apostles
2) Messiah is promising that it is yet to come
3) Messiah is taken up after uttering this statement, again without the giving of the Holy Spirit.
4) One of the purposes of the Holy Spirit is to empower the disciples to be apostles in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and to "the ends of the earth"
5) JERUSALEM, NOT GALILEE, is the place where this is to happen

This is quite a bit of detail and this passage makes it completely clear what is going to happen, where it's going to happen, and when.

Here is the problem:

According to the Gospel of John, Messiah, after having risen - gives the holy spirit when?

On the very same evening of Resurrection day. John 20:19-23

The - very - same - evening. No instructions to wait after already waiting 40 days.

What about the WHERE? Well according to Matthew, it is in Galilee! NOT JERUSALEM. Galilee is where Messiah gives the Great commission. What about John? ALSO GALILEE. The disciples meet Jesus while they are fishing on the shore of the Sea of Tiberius, which is another name for the sea of Galilee.

Is this a partial Holy Spirit or what's going on in John and Matthew? No - because it is given with the same purpose - to empower the disciples to become apostles and His witnesses. Matthew's Witness also has the Great Commission (empowerment of the Disciples to become Apostles) at the same time - day of Resurrection - NOT after 40 days and NOT after ascending in the heavens.

Both of these stories cannot be true at the same time. The when, why and where ALL differ. That is to say, Matthew and John's accounts can be said to be complimentary, but LUKE's ACCOUNT IN ACTS CONTRADICTS IT ALL.

 

[psalms 91]

I think Acts Chapter two is your answer

 

[Stravinsk]

I think Acts Chapter two is your answer

If Acts chapter 1 and 2 is the truth, then both Matthew and John's witness in this matter is not true.

In Matthew and John, the Holy Spirit is given:

1) On the very same evening of the resurrection (Acts has it 40+ days later)
2) In Galilee (Acts has Messiah instructing disciples to wait in Jerusalem, and HS arriving while they are in Jerusalem)
3) For the same reason - empowerment to the disciples (the only point on which Acts agrees)
4) Prior to Ascending to the heavens (Acts has it POST Ascending to the heavens)

A choice must be made on which story is true, because they cannot be true at the same time. Most Christians DISBELIEVE Matthew and John's testimonies on this matter and accept Luke's. They are accepting the story of a man Yeshua did not choose as one of his witnesses. It is actually a form of disbelief and distrust in Yeshua, by pushing aside their testimonies in favor of Luke's.

 

[Josiah]

The Holy Spirit was "poured out" at Pentecost. Not "first came."

 

[Stravinsk]

The Holy Spirit was "poured out" at Pentecost. Not "first came."

Not acceptable. It cannot be said that a "partial holy spirit came prior, then came in fullness at Pentecost"

Why? Because one of the big attributes of the HS was to empower the disciples to become apostles and witnesses of Messiah to all nations. In Acts 1, Luke records Jesus as instructing them to wait for this, and for this reason. This is after 40 days and He still hasn't ascended yet.

Matthew and John have Him giving the HS and the Great commission (the same one Luke's messiah has them waiting for 40+ days later) on the evening of the resurrection - and in a totally different area.

Sorry. It can't be explained away like this. Either Luke is lying or Matthew and John are. No wiggle room. One must choose.

 

[psalms 91]

If Acts chapter 1 and 2 is the truth, then both Matthew and John's witness in this matter is not true.

In Matthew and John, the Holy Spirit is given:

1) On the very same evening of the resurrection (Acts has it 40+ days later)
2) In Galilee (Acts has Messiah instructing disciples to wait in Jerusalem, and HS arriving while they are in Jerusalem)
3) For the same reason - empowerment to the disciples (the only point on which Acts agrees)
4) Prior to Ascending to the heavens (Acts has it POST Ascending to the heavens)

A choice must be made on which story is true, because they cannot be true at the same time. Most Christians DISBELIEVE Matthew and John's testimonies on this matter and accept Luke's. They are accepting the story of a man Yeshua did not choose as one of his witnesses. It is actually a form of disbelief and distrust in Yeshua, by pushing aside their testimonies in favor of Luke's.

Wow just wow, enjoy this thread but I will tell you that scripture where it appears to contradict does not, it usually is that the answer to the contradiction is found elsewhere

 

[Josiah]

Not acceptable. It cannot be said that a "partial holy spirit came prior, then came in fullness at Pentecost"

If something is "POURED OUT" that doesn't mandate it's the first time it was given - especially when the very same Scripture states otherwise.

There was a difference in terms of the coming...... Nowhere does any Scrpture state that the Holy Spirit never came before Pentecost.

It can't be explained away like this. Either Luke is lying or Matthew and John are. No wiggle room. One must choose.

There's no conflict at all. None.




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[Stravinsk]

If something is "POURED OUT" that doesn't mandate it's the first time it was given - especially when the very same Scripture states otherwise.

There was a difference in terms of the coming...... Nowhere does any Scrpture state that the Holy Spirit never came before Pentecost.






There's no conflict at all. None.




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In other words, what you are saying is that Messiah was handicapping the disciples in Galilee and denying His own choice of disciples to-be-apostles - by giving them a Holy Spirit to witness to all nations - but not really - because he was going to later give them the full enchilada at Pentacost. His instructions for the reason to wait in Acts (and where to wait) is for the empowerment of the disciples to become apostles to WITNESS TO HIM.

So if Acts is true, why didn't He just say it would be in Jerusalem and at Pentecost in Matt and John's accounts? He didn't. The instructions are different on where to go and the HS is given on the same day.

 

[Josiah]

In other words, what you are saying is that Messiah was handicapping the disciples in Galilee and denying His own choice of disciples to-be-apostles - by giving them a Holy Spirit to witness to all nations - but not really - because he was going to later give them the full enchilada at Pentacost. His instructions for the reason to wait in Acts (and where to wait) is for the empowerment of the disciples to become apostles to WITNESS TO HIM.

So if Acts is true, why didn't He just say it would be in Jerusalem and at Pentecost in Matt and John's accounts? He didn't. The instructions are different on where to go and the HS is given on the same day.

No, I'm saying there's no conflict. The Holy Spirit has been given for a very long time. But not always in the same way. You are creating a strawman out of your own assumptions and questions. Now, I agree - not every question that might be asked is answered, but that doesn't mean there is a conflict in what Scripture states.

 

[Stravinsk]

No, I'm saying there's no conflict. The Holy Spirit has been given for a very long time. But not always in the same way. You are creating a strawman out of your own assumptions and questions. Now, I agree - not every question that might be asked is answered, but that doesn't mean there is a conflict in what Scripture states.

I am not making assumptions and there is definitely a contradiction between John/Matthew and Luke's Acts as I have already outlined.

Tell me plainly, did Yeshua give the great commission in Galilee as recorded in Matthew on the same day as Resurrection? If the answer is "yes, He did" - then why bother telling the disciples to wait in Jerusalem after 40 days to receive "power from on high" to do it?

Was Jesus just kidding when he said in John 20:21-23 that he was sending the disciples out just like the Father sent him? Is there an error in the text where immediately after saying this, he says "and with that, he breathed on them saying, Receive ye the Holy Spirit, if you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven, if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven"?

Was all this talk just mumbo jumbo in preparation for the "big event" in Acts that was to happen 40+ days later in a totally different location?

 

[Josiah]

I am not making assumptions and there is definitely a contradiction between John/Matthew and Luke's Acts as I have already outlined.

You didn't outline any contradiction. You made a lot of assumptions..... you asked a lot of questions..... you seemed to suggest there's some missing information.... but you did NOTHING to show any contradiction.

Tell me plainly, did Yeshua give the great commission in Galilee as recorded in Matthew on the same day as Resurrection? If the answer is "yes, He did" - then why bother telling the disciples to wait in Jerusalem after 40 days to receive "power from on high" to do it?

1. The Great Commission is the baptize and teach. It's not "stay until you receive power from on high" Nor is it, "and do such in the way and empowered as I desire starting yesterday."

2. Jesus probably said a LOT (perhaps tens of thousands of things) more than once. So what? When do you read, "Jesus said ONLY THIS ONCE AND ONLY HERE....?"

3. You seem to conclude that if YOU ask a question..... and Scripture doesn't specifically answer it..... ergo there's a "contradiction." Friend, respectfully, you are confusing very very different things.

Was Jesus just kidding when he said in John 20:21-23 that he was sending the disciples out just like the Father sent him? Is there an error in the text where immediately after saying this, he says "and with that, he breathed on them saying, Receive ye the Holy Spirit, if you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven, if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven"?

Again, YOU posing question that YOU conclude Scripture doesn't answer is not documentation of a CONTRADICTION in the text(s).

Again, the Holy Spirit has been given often. But not always in the say way or to the same people or for the same reason.





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[Josiah]

double post, SORRY

 

[Stravinsk]

Thank you, Josiah, for answering. I'll await the responses from others as they (or if they) come.

 

[psalms 91]

In other words, what you are saying is that Messiah was handicapping the disciples in Galilee and denying His own choice of disciples to-be-apostles - by giving them a Holy Spirit to witness to all nations - but not really - because he was going to later give them the full enchilada at Pentacost. His instructions for the reason to wait in Acts (and where to wait) is for the empowerment of the disciples to become apostles to WITNESS TO HIM.

So if Acts is true, why didn't He just say it would be in Jerusalem and at Pentecost in Matt and John's accounts? He didn't. The instructions are different on where to go and the HS is given on the same day.

You are reading into scripture and incorrectly as well. Matthew does not say that it was given and it really isnt implied other than it would be

 

[Stravinsk]

You are reading into scripture and incorrectly as well. Matthew does not say that it was given and it really isnt implied other than it would be

C'mon Bill. It's true that Matthew doesn't explicitly say the HS was given...but why even give the disciples the direction to go out with the Great Commission if the HS wasn't involved in that...and NEEDED ACCORDING TO ACTS TO DO THIS VERY THING?

 

[Josiah]

.but why

C'mon. You having a question that you feel Scripture doesn't answer is not remotely related to documenting a contradiction.




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[psalms 91]

C'mon Bill. It's true that Matthew doesn't explicitly say the HS was given...but why even give the disciples the direction to go out with the Great Commission if the HS wasn't involved in that...and NEEDED ACCORDING TO ACTS TO DO THIS VERY THING?

Maybe because He had to leave in order for it to come and He wanted to make this a point that they would concentrate on for if they hadnt done that there would be no church today as we know it

 

[Stravinsk]

C'mon. You having a question that you feel Scripture doesn't answer is not remotely related to documenting a contradiction.




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I documented the contradictions. I'm sorry that it is plain that some faith in the inerrancy of the Cannon is a bar to that.

If we were talking outside religious matters then I'm sure if I told you that I'd be in Barcelona on the 26th of March 2016 to give certain gifts to certain people where you were included it would be an issue with you if I had already given those exact same gifts to those exact same people in January 2016 in Greenland and declared this earlier date when I would give such gifts, along with specific instructions for said followers to be in Greenland in January and not March in Barcelona to receive them.

If this were the situation outside of the Bible, you, like most sane and rational people would see a contradiction. Because you believe that the cannon is inerrant by matter of rote and faith in the passed on traditions of the Catholic church it requires special mental gymnastics to accept it.

 

[Josiah]

I documented the contradictions.

I'm sorry. You did not. You indicated that you have questions that you conclude Scripture does not answer. These two things are unrelated.




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[Stravinsk]

I'm sorry. You did not. You indicated that you have questions that you conclude Scripture does not answer. These two things are unrelated.




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It's telling that you won't answer a simple question. Did Yeshua give the great commission and give the Holy Spirit to do such a task on the evening of the Resurrection in Galilee as recorded by His HANDPICKED disciples Matthew and John,

or did He tell the disciples to wait after 40 days for this to happen in Jerusalem as recorded by Luke - some guy who is not among the disciples that Yeshua hand picked to follow Him?

Exactly when did Yeshua give the great commission Josiah? John and Matthew record it as the evening of the Resurrection. Luke says 40+ days later. So, which is it?