Here's why the "free will" argument cannot be justified if God is all good

Edward429451

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 25, 2025
Messages
506
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Divorced
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
What they mean when they say there is no free will concern the ability to will our way into life from spiritual death. The will is bound to sin.

Are these the same people who show up later saying I live on my couch and wont do anything for the Lord because that would be a works salvation, and it's a free gift!
 

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
108
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
108
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
First of all, I don't believe that we have free will, but the argument of "free will" is the main theodicy that Christian apologists use. Here's why this argument cannot be justified if God is omnibenevolent.

[snip]
Lucian,

From what I’ve read, it is clear that you place a high value on logic and consistency. That is something I respect. You reject evasions that appeal to some higher, unknowable logic beyond reason, and that places you in rare company. So I intend to engage your argument directly, using only sound reasoning and clear definitions, on your own terms.

You argue that the concept of free will, when used to defend God’s goodness, creates a contradiction. If God gave humans moral agency knowing it would lead to suffering, then, by your reasoning, He chose to receive love at the cost of our well-being. That would make Him selfish. Since you are unwilling to conclude that God is selfish, you reject the premise that He gave us free will. In your view, denying free will is the only way to preserve divine goodness.

At first glance, this may seem like a reasonable reductio. On closer inspection, though, your conclusion collapses. The entire force of your argument depends on moral and relational categories that have no place in a deterministic framework. You appeal repeatedly to concepts like love, obedience, well-being, suffering, harm, selfishness, and moral value. Yet none of these terms are coherent unless freedom is real.

If no one can ever do otherwise, then no one can choose to love, no one can choose to obey, and no one can be blamed or praised. There is no moral responsibility, there is no “ought", there is only causality. A domino does not "obey" the law of gravity, nor does a computer "obey" it's programmer when it executes its programming. It's all purely cause and effect. If every thought, choice, and impulse is predetermined, then there is no such thing as morality. Every appeal to goodness or harm or value becomes a linguistic shell, evacuated of meaning. Yet your entire critique of free will depends on those very concepts.

You argue that if humans had been created without moral agency, we would have lived in blissful communion with God. That claim assumes that communion is possible without choice, and that bliss can exist without meaning. Neither is true. A relationship that is programmed is not a relationship. A creature without moral freedom is not a person. Relationship that cannot be rejected is not love. You describe a world where beings are denied agency yet somehow experience moral and relational fulfillment. That picture is not only incoherent. It is self-negating. It imagines moral outcomes in a world where morality cannot exist.

You also assert that free will, if it existed, would have harmed both God and man. Yet harm is not a category that exists in a purely determined system. If everything happens by necessity, then there is no deviation from what should have occurred. Harm requires a standard of goodness. It requires the possibility of choosing otherwise. If you remove freedom, you remove harm in the moral sense of the term. Your entire framework turns on a contradiction. You use morally charged language to argue against the only foundation that makes such language intelligible.

Your view also presents a false dichotomy. You assume that God had two options: create morally free beings and allow for the possibility of suffering, or create morally inert beings and guarantee a world of bliss. You favor the latter, assuming it would result in maximum well-being. Yet a world without freedom would not be blissful. It would be lifeless. There would be no love nor hated, no joy nor sorrow. There would be no meaning, no communion, no value of any kind. There would only be function. What you describe is not well-being. It is utility. A perfectly efficient system of causation is not a moral good, it's a machine. The highest goods, thing like truth, love, relationship, beauty, sacrifice, redemption, etc, exist only where freedom exists.

The God of Scripture did not create a machine. He created moral agents in His own image, with the capacity to choose, to love, to reason, to respond. Freedom is not a defect in His design, it is the foundation of it. A world of moral agency allows for evil, but it also allows for everything that makes life meaningful. The risk is real but so is the reward.

Moreover, God was not ignorant of the cost. He knew the danger of freedom and He understood that evil was not only possible, but likely. He judged the outcome well worth the risk. So much so that He willingly took the burden of that risk upon Himself. The value of an eternal (i.e. ever lasting) relationship of love and joy with His creation is so far above the cost of the temporary evil and suffering of this world that God was willing to restore that broken relationship with His own life's blood. It is the veritable pearl of great price and the epitome of "maximal goodness"!

"The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls, who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had and bought it.” (Matthew 13:45-46)
 
Last edited:

NSH

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2025
Messages
7
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Non-Denominational
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Omnibenevolence entails that God wants the maximum well-being for all living things, right?
Not sure of the relevance of this question. It appears to be evasion and diversion from the key point being made.
Do you agree that a choice made at gun-point is not actually a free choice at all? Can we at least establish that first?
At gun point, the choice is to live by complying or to face death. A person could go either way.
Many martyrs were happy to die for the faith. A recent example happened in India where several men agreed to be killed for their faith in Christ and their families celebrated their decision. I'll try to find the link, if it matters.

If we speak of omnibenevolence then we have to agree that God in his nature is ultimately and totally good. and if we take this premise to be true, are we saying he is doing bad when he judges us for our free choices and actions done in the body? If he could blame original sin, then we would be off the hook and would not need a savior. The temple sacrifices could remove guilt for the wrong things we knew we did. But because we sin willingly, this is why we needed a savior: because the nature could not be changed by temporary offerings in the physical.

So the spiritual offering was that Jesus gave up his body, mind and spirit to atone for our free will to sin. And in believing that we are given a new nature that is not compelled to sin, giving us a choice to go with the new nature or not.

Before salvation: I can choose to do good or bad, but I am compelled to do wrong out of my nature.
After salvation: I can choose to do good or bad, but I am compelled to do good out of my new nature. this is the grace that saves us.
 
Top Bottom