HELL

[Andrew]

I still honestly believe that the orthodox vision of hell is unbiblical and was used in medieval times to draw in pagans -who had no connection to Judaism but had always and already had a superstitious and absurd Zoroastrian belief of a place of unimaginable torture and torment in eternal fire, not of purity reasons but for pure eternal punishment of souls who likewise can never ever be forgiven.
A church that believes that a baby who was unwanted and disposed of and died the day it was born goes straight to "hell" is no friend of mine.
It is rooted in paganism and is not found in proper translation.
We will all as sinners have a PART in the lake of fire lest you believe and accept Christ who defeated death/sheol or stay conformed by the god of this world -the adversary, that lying deceitful devil Satan.
We will be baptised in fire, tried and purified but these scare-tactics-to-convert are very outdated and again, rooted in demonic pagan beliefs and are very dangerous...
Is it not naive to choose false non-biblical narrative to inherit the kingdom out of fear rather than breaking the generational lies apart by teaching the correct translations and true concordance of "death/sheol/'hell'?

https://youtu.be/rvkgRy2KIdg

 

[Albion]

I still honestly believe that the orthodox vision of hell is unbiblical and was used in medieval times to draw in pagans -who had no connection to Judaism but had always and already had a superstitious and absurd Zoroastrian belief of a place of unimaginable torture and torment in eternal fire, not of purity reasons but for pure eternal punishment of souls who likewise can never ever be forgiven.
A church that believes that a baby who was unwanted and disposed of and died the day it was born goes straight to "hell" is no friend of mine.

What church is ruled out then?

 

[Andrew]

What church is ruled out then?

My point being that this is utterly irresponsibility for every church that wills to draw in attendees under the fear and threat of inescapable everlasting punishment in hellfire where Satan and his demons roast victims alive over fire while stabbing them with their pitchforks in exceeding pleasure and excitement.
Now imagine them doing this to a day old baby or stillborn.
Hell means death and fear of death. It's the evidence of a bad conscious on a man on his death bed who is entirely consumed in his rebellious nature without conviction thus neglect of the Lord who willed to save his soul.
I do not believe that they will go the cartoonish depiction of a material hell forever, they will either accept the resurrection or go to death eternally... but not to the pagan molech hell that forces all dead babies to beg and plea without mercy.
Fire means judgment and trial, we will accept that which has been tried in the fire, we will all have our part in the fire, we will be baptised in fire, OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.



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[Albion]

My point being that this is utterly irresponsibility for every church that wills to draw in attendees under the fear and threat of inescapable everlasting punishment in hellfire where Satan and his demons roast victims alive over fire while stabbing them with their pitchforks in exceeding pleasure and excitement.
Now imagine them doing this to a day old baby or stillborn.

And I want to know what churches you were thinking of. I cannot call to mind any particular denomination that teaches such, but of course, I am not an expert on the welter of independent Fundamentalist and Pentecostal congregations that are around. In addition, you said *orthodox vision of Hell* in post #1, so they would be ruled out by that qualifier anyway. So whom did you have in mind?

 

[Josiah]

LIBERALS: "There ain't no hell."
CONSERVATIVES: "The hell there ain't!"

 

[Andrew]

And I want to know what churches you were thinking of. I cannot call to mind any particular denomination that teaches such, but of course, I am not an expert on the welter of independent Fundamentalist and Pentecostal congregations that are around. In addition, you said *orthodox vision of Hell* in post #1, so they would be ruled out by that qualifier anyway. So whom did you have in mind?

A church that claims no salvation outside the church therefore anyone who didn't make it through their doors goe into hellfire. I'm just pointing out the absurdity by using the deceased infant example.
Wycliff also had this beef with the church, not about hell but about non baptised babies going to hell.
Back then they charged people to be baptised and the poor couldnt afford it.
But this is about the concept of hell.
So far I have personally heard from certain people that everyone outside their congregation will burn in hell forever, these include Catholic, Mennonite and Pentecostal and they seemed very serious about it.

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[psalms 91]

A church that claims no salvation outside the church therefore anyone who didn't make it through their doors goe into hellfire. I'm just pointing out the absurdity by using the deceased infant example.
Wycliff also had this beef with the church, not about hell but about non baptised babies going to hell.
Back then they charged people to be baptised and the poor couldnt afford it.
But this is about the concept of hell.
So far I have personally heard from certain people that everyone outside their congregation will burn in hell forever, these include Catholic, Mennonite and Pentecostal and they seemed very serious about it.

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I am Pentecostql and I have been in Mennonite services and I never once heard this so I think your info is wrong. Yes, there are certain churchs that do believe this but they are few and far between thank goodness.

 

[Albion]

A church that claims no salvation outside the church therefore anyone who didn't make it through their doors goes into hellfire. I'm just pointing out the absurdity by using the deceased infant example.

But is that a real example? There doesn't seem to be a denomination that actually does teach this, yet your post made it seem as though you were rejecting a rather standard belief among the Christian churches. I guess I was interested to know if there is, in fact, one that I have overlooked. Apparently not.

 

[Andrew]

I am Pentecostql and I have been in Mennonite services and I never once heard this so I think your info is wrong. Yes, there are certain churchs that do believe this but they are few and far between thank goodness.

No im pentecostal too but we have had some guest preaching hellfire to those outside the church and it made me sick to my stomach :/
A Mennonite family I knew talked about it a lot as well and even told their children that they will go to hell for owning a guitar because it's "worldly" or if they found work outside the family, one of the kids cried about it because they felt like no matter what they would go to hell..they were nice people but very very strict and weird when it came to their belief.
My father was raised in a Catholic school where the nuns and priest told him on a regular basis that outside the Catholic church all souls are damned to eternal hellfire.
I assume they all believe that they are the true Christian church thus others are wrong and do not have the Christian faith unless they come to their church.

 

[Andrew]

But is that a real example? There doesn't seem to be a denomination that actually does teach this, yet your post made it seem as though you were rejecting a rather standard belief among the Christian churches. I guess I was interested to know if there is, in fact, one that I have overlooked. Apparently not.

Do you believe that non baptised infants go to hell?

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[hedrick]

It doesn't help to exaggerate what is actually taught. Virtually no churches teach either that infants end up in hell or that all people outside their own church end up in hell. Indeed the latter is often considered a major characteristic of an damaging "cult."

I agree that the fear of hell has often been used to manipulate people. But that doesn't mean that there aren't people who are lost.

 

[atpollard]

Salvation through Jesus for the few:

[Mat 7:13-14 NASB] 13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

[Jhn 3:16-18 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[Jhn 14:6 NASB] 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

[Act 4:12 NASB] 12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Do we believe what GOD says, or not?
(If we believe it, should we warn others of the truth we know?)




Is there a HELL?

[Mat 5:22, 29-30 NASB] 22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. ... 29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
[Mat 10:28 NASB] 28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
[Mat 18:9 NASB] 9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
[Mat 23:33 NASB] 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Jesus says there is.

 

[psalms 91]

Absolutely but it is a message that many will not recieve for who wants to believe that ionly a few will make it and that in order to be in that number you must obey and follow Jesus every day with Him being first in our lives and that we must be in Him which is different from Him in us.

 

[Andrew]

Salvation through Jesus for the few:

[Mat 7:13-14 NASB] 13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

[Jhn 3:16-18 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[Jhn 14:6 NASB] 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

[Act 4:12 NASB] 12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Do we believe what GOD says, or not?
(If we believe it, should we warn others of the truth we know?)




Is there a HELL?

[Mat 5:22, 29-30 NASB] 22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. ... 29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
[Mat 10:28 NASB] 28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
[Mat 18:9 NASB] 9 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
[Mat 23:33 NASB] 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Jesus says there is.

I am not denying the existence of hell but man can add on what they picture hell to be just to scare people into a church but not so much the word.
The Catholic creed declares that those outside of the Catholic faith are destined to eternal hell fire so what does they say for Protestantism? Many Protestants say that the Pope is the false prophet or the anti-Christ so what does that say for Catholicism? What does it say for non baptised babies? I thought the promise was for the generations of the baptised, yet whether a church says it or not they imply because they believe that water baptism is a must in their church by God.
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psalm 16:10
I believe hell is where the souls that reject the resurrection perish and therefore will not see to the resurrection but are shut out of the kingdom.
Why else would death and hell be thrown into the lake of fire? Do things not perish in fire? Does perish mean perish or something else?
When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
Isaiah 43:2



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[MennoSota]

I still honestly believe that the orthodox vision of hell is unbiblical and was used in medieval times to draw in pagans -who had no connection to Judaism but had always and already had a superstitious and absurd Zoroastrian belief of a place of unimaginable torture and torment in eternal fire, not of purity reasons but for pure eternal punishment of souls who likewise can never ever be forgiven.
A church that believes that a baby who was unwanted and disposed of and died the day it was born goes straight to "hell" is no friend of mine.
It is rooted in paganism and is not found in proper translation.
We will all as sinners have a PART in the lake of fire lest you believe and accept Christ who defeated death/sheol or stay conformed by the god of this world -the adversary, that lying deceitful devil Satan.
We will be baptised in fire, tried and purified but these scare-tactics-to-convert are very outdated and again, rooted in demonic pagan beliefs and are very dangerous...
Is it not naive to choose false non-biblical narrative to inherit the kingdom out of fear rather than breaking the generational lies apart by teaching the correct translations and true concordance of "death/sheol/'hell'?

https://youtu.be/rvkgRy2KIdg

There is no evidence that Zoroastrianism was ever a predominant religion in Western culture. Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone, so obviously God is highly concerned with it.

 

[MennoSota]

A church that claims no salvation outside the church therefore anyone who didn't make it through their doors goe into hellfire. I'm just pointing out the absurdity by using the deceased infant example.
Wycliff also had this beef with the church, not about hell but about non baptised babies going to hell.
Back then they charged people to be baptised and the poor couldnt afford it.
But this is about the concept of hell.
So far I have personally heard from certain people that everyone outside their congregation will burn in hell forever, these include Catholic, Mennonite and Pentecostal and they seemed very serious about it.

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Mennonite? I have never heard a Mennonite claim that only Mennonites can be saved from hell.
It sounds like your beef is not about hell, but it is about denominations that claim exclusive access to God. Such a position is common among cults.

 

[atpollard]

I am not denying the existence of hell but man can add on what they picture hell to be just to scare people into a church but not so much the word.
The Catholic creed declares that those outside of the Catholic faith are destined to eternal hell fire so what does they say for Protestantism? Many Protestants say that the Pope is the false prophet or the anti-Christ so what does that say for Catholicism? What does it say for non baptised babies? I thought the promise was for the generations of the baptised, yet whether a church says it or not they imply because they believe that water baptism is a must in their church by God.
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psalm 16:10
I believe hell is where the souls that reject the resurrection perish and therefore will not see to the resurrection but are shut out of the kingdom.
Why else would death and hell be thrown into the lake of fire? Do things not perish in fire? Does perish mean perish or something else?
When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
Isaiah 43:2

I would prefer to let the Roman Catholic Church speak for itself, but just to make a quick point, it is not malice or elitism behind their view that non-Catholics are in danger of damnation. As I understand it, God will save HIS CHURCH (the Catholic Church), and anyone who rejects being part of the Church is rejecting being part of the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. Thus the danger for us Protestants, is we have abandoned Christ’s Church ... the means through which Jesus saves.

We (Protestants) will obviously disagree, but the Catholic Church is simply drawing a conclusion based on there understanding and not seeking to claim any cult-like exclusivity to truth. I think they could probably explain it better. They just do not deserved to be lumped with JWs on this. It really is a different thing.

 

[psalms 91]

I would prefer to let the Roman Catholic Church speak for itself, but just to make a quick point, it is not malice or elitism behind their view that non-Catholics are in danger of damnation. As I understand it, God will save HIS CHURCH (the Catholic Church), and anyone who rejects being part of the Church is rejecting being part of the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. Thus the danger for us Protestants, is we have abandoned Christ’s Church ... the means through which Jesus saves.

We (Protestants) will obviously disagree, but the Catholic Church is simply drawing a conclusion based on there understanding and not seeking to claim any cult-like exclusivity to truth. I think they could probably explain it better. They just do not deserved to be lumped with JWs on this. It really is a different thing.

One difference is they will deny that they hold this belief, that they accept us as Christians,

 

[Andrew]

Mennonite? I have never heard a Mennonite claim that only Mennonites can be saved from hell.
It sounds like your beef is not about hell, but it is about denominations that claim exclusive access to God. Such a position is common among cults.

Pretty much. I share in a later post what I have heard personally in my home town from three denominations, all claiming the others will be eternally damned by God... all speaking as members of their church and speaking on Gods behalf.
You and Psalms both got defensive and offended and thank God!
But in my small town people seem to demonize another and segregate themselves in Gods Holy Church, it's sad and terrible and incorrect when they claim a ridiculous cartoonish depiction of Hell just to scare people through a tugawar with eachother.
This "hell" I hear of is always the same man made horror film projection that is not mentioned in scripture.
My point seems to be difficult to get across so be patient, I again wish to expound that I do believe in a place where non believers go called hell but not the scare tactical medieval painting hell which we seem to assume so.
I believe Jesus describes it well enough but when scripture says that sinners will have their "part" in it is not the same as a man saying that sinners have 'all' part or eternal subjection to hell where they never 'perish' but are quite the opposite.. non perishable.
The 'smoke' of their torment ascends forever.


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[Andrew]

There is no evidence that Zoroastrianism was ever a predominant religion in Western culture. Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone, so obviously God is highly concerned with it.

.

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