HELL

[Andrew]

"The problem" is that there is also the matter of Original Sin. It may be a myth that was held by the church through most of its history, but it is suggested by a number of Bible verses. So it if is real, what of those who die before reaching the age of accountability, whatever that age is, but have Original Sin thanks to having been born?

The fact is that much of Christianity never thought that those people were hell-bound anyway, and even the RCC came up with a way to have their cake and eat it too--Limbo. She has more recently junked that teaching.

But the bottom line is that few Christian churches anymore think that hell is the answer and, without having a firm answer about where such children go (because the Bible simply omits such information), think that the Almighty has something in mind for them that is not hell.

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[Pedrito]

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The thought expressed in Post #39 (jsimms435) is most instructive ([emphasis added]:

What I have been taught is that there is an age of accountability. Before this age if a person dies they do not go to hell. This age of accountability is in direct reference to that person's ability to understand right and wrong such as an infant which you described or a person with intellectual disabilities. I don't know what this age of accountability is. I would assume it is different for each person

The age of accountability with respect to salvation, is central to the belief sets of the majority of churches within the expansive fold labelled “Christendom”. That centrality is demonstrably true, even in those churches that jump through flaming hoops and crawl over broken bottles (as it were) to deny it. We have seen that elsewhere.

The age of accountability is stated as a truth (either directly or indirectly), because denominational doctrine, and doctrinal perspectives shared among various denominations, fall apart without it.

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I suggest (contend, actually) that an important concept such as the age of accountability with respect to salvation, were it to be God’s truth in reality, must have been clearly and unequivocally presented in “the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 1:3, ESV).

I further suggest (further contend) that it is nowhere to be found in the written record of apostolic teaching.

Therefore the concept is totally foreign to (totally alien to) the Original Apostolic Gospel.

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Circular-style reasoning such as – “The doctrines that I (want to) believe are true, are true; an age of accountability is fundamental, for those doctrines to have any credence at all; therefore the idea that an age of accountability exists, has to be true; and therefore it is true” – simply does not cut the mustard.

If “the age of accountability for salvation” is not taught in God’s Holy Bible, then much teaching that has been handed down to us, is false. So it is of paramount importance to identify with precision, those places in God’s Holy Revelation to Mankind, where that concept is clearly and unequivocally presented.

So I ask Readers’ help in identifying those passages. And I offer thanks in advance.


Of course, if no such passages can be found...

 

[RichWh1]

The word ‘hell’ can have various meanings in the Greek and Hebrew languages. It can mean the unseen world, the grave, below the earth, and as Jesus used it a place of torment.

So the word itself doesn’t have one specific meaning; it can vary according to the context.


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[hedrick]

The idea of the age of accountability comes from the understanding that due to original sin, everyone deserves hell. Only by a positive action can we be saved from this. Since infants can’t do this, they get a special exemption. So the question is at what age the exemption stops.

But Jesus doesn’t seem to treat children as having a special exemption. Rather, their faith is a model for adults. If that’s true, then we don’t need an age of accountability. The problem for adults becomes whether they can preserve the open and trusting nature of a child while becoming knowledgeable and responsible. Adulthood hardens many people, but that need not happen at any particular age. Those who preserve their faith don't suddenly have the basis for their salvation change at some age.

The difficulty with this for traditional Christianity is that the faith of young children isn’t an explicit faith in Christ. On the other hand, I think most Christians today are inclusivists. That assumes that faith can be a qualify of life or perhaps a personal orientation, and isn’t always based on knowing about Christ.

 

[Pedrito]

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Post #43:

The word ‘hell’ can have various meanings in the Greek and Hebrew languages. It can mean the unseen world, the grave, below the earth, and as Jesus used it a place of torment.

So the word itself doesn’t have one specific meaning; it can vary according to the context.

Readers ought to wonder: Why is the word “Hell” (given one particular meaning) used to translate Jesus’ words, when Jesus specifically refers to “the Valley of Hinnom” (“gay hinnom”)? The artificially applied meaning ("eternal torment") is totally alien to the actual meaning that Jesus was conveying to His hearers (demonstrably so). It is totally alien to the meaning that His hearers knew Him to be conveying (i.e. "total annihilation"), because that understanding was indelibly embedded in their culture.

That false meaning is applied for one very good reason. It is applied simply because it is necessary – that false meaning is necessary to support a post-Nicene, imported pagan philosophy. Remember, pagan philosophy had already started to penetrate even in apostolic times. (Jude 1:3: Having made all haste to write to you about the common salvation, beloved, I had need to write to you to exhort [you] to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.)

“The Valley of Hinnom” (“gay hinnom”) was the rubbish dump on one side of Jerusalem that annihilated everything that was thrown into it. That is what Jesus was speaking of. (“Gehenna” is simply a poor Greek transliteration of “gay hinnom”.)

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Putting words into Jesus’ mouth retrospectively, is a sure-fire way of giving necessary credence to the post-Nicene doctrine of eternal suffering in a fiery “Hell”.

It has certainly done the job. Hasn’t it?

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[atpollard]

Nobody is putting words in Jesus mouth:

[Mat 18:8 NASB] 8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal[G166] fire.
[Mat 25:41, 46 NASB] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal[G166] fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; ... 46 "These will go away into eternal[G166] punishment, but the righteous into eternal[G166] life."

No talk of “destruction” from the lips of Jesus in these verses, just ETERNAL fire and ETERNAL punishment.
Are the fires of Gehenna outside Jerusalem still burning? (Then I guess they really aren’t like an eternal punishment in an eternal fire, are they?)

 

[Andrew]

Nobody is putting words in Jesus mouth:

[Mat 18:8 NASB] 8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal[G166] fire.
[Mat 25:41, 46 NASB] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal[G166] fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; ... 46 "These will go away into eternal[G166] punishment, but the righteous into eternal[G166] life."

No talk of “destruction” from the lips of Jesus in these verses, just ETERNAL fire and ETERNAL punishment.
Are the fires of Gehenna outside Jerusalem still burning? (Then I guess they really aren’t like an eternal punishment in an eternal fire, are they?)

It says to me that all sinners (us) will have part in the everlasting fire... "PART" being the key words.
Hell is created for the devil and his angels for ever lasting punishment, but us sinners will have our part so to speak but not everlasting because Christ saves us, as for the others they still have their part in it and some of them I see from time to time
The y are spiritually dead and they are spiritually in hell likewise.

 

[atpollard]

It says to me that all sinners (us) will have part in the everlasting fire... "PART" being the key words.

Supporting scripture?

 

[atpollard]

It says to me that all sinners (us) will have part in the everlasting fire... "PART" being the key words.

Supporting scripture?

 

[Andrew]

Supporting scripture?

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8

 

[Lamb]

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 21:8

As a believer you have the Holy Spirit living in you. You don't believe that the Holy Spirit would have to suffer do you? Didn't Jesus suffer for your sins already? You're covered by Christ's righteousness.

 

[Andrew]

As a believer you have the Holy Spirit living in you. You don't believe that the Holy Spirit would have to suffer do you? Didn't Jesus suffer for your sins already? You're covered by Christ's righteousness.

Truth indeed.
The verse I refer to is dealing with the unrepented sinner and unbelievers having their part in the fire, when putting on the new man we bury the old man so to speak, and all men are to die once and then the judgment... To die twice is to take part in the second death, lake of fire.

 

[MennoSota]

https://youtu.be/GLK2eC-kWIk

 

[Andrew]

Hahahaha!
This thread is now about the Simpsons
-OP coordinator

 

[Pedrito]

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Hedrick in Post #44 explained for us:

The idea of the age of accountability comes from the understanding that due to original sin, everyone deserves hell. Only by a positive action can we be saved from this. Since infants can’t do this, they get a special exemption. So the question is at what age the exemption stops...

The explanation is a worthy summary of the “problem” of original sin, and the commonly taught solution for its perceived effect on infants. However, I would once again suggest that that set of ideas is based on human wisdom – it is of human derivation. It overrides the clear, simple revelation that God graciously provided for us. That set of ideas is totally at odds with “the faith once and for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 1:3)

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For instance, the concept of an age of accountability (the time of transition from the state of infant protection, to that of adult responsibility) is not taught in the Bible. It is a totally foreign concept with respect to the Original Apostolic Gospel. (Alien, actually. Flying saucer stuff.)

Yet that concept is central to the doctrine sets of most churches. (Whether or not they admit it. Whether or not they deny it.)

The important question is: How could the apostles have got it so wrong? How could they have missed something so “fundamental”, something so “obviously necessary”?

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But what if the apostles didn’t get it wrong? What if that teaching, well summarised for us above, is not fundamental, but seriously flawed?

To find out, we simply need to ask: Just what was (and still is) the clear Apostolic Teaching, committed to writing as it was (and still is), about the fate of all infants who (so tragically) die, whether or not they are baptised?

Anyone?


(My request in Post #42 for references (any reference) unequivocally referring to an age of accountability, bore no fruit.)

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[Pedrito]

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Post #46:

Nobody is putting words in Jesus mouth:

[Mat 18:8 NASB] 8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal[G166] fire.
[Mat 25:41, 46 NASB] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal[G166] fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; ... 46 "These will go away into eternal[G166] punishment, but the righteous into eternal[G166] life."

No talk of “destruction” from the lips of Jesus in these verses, just ETERNAL fire and ETERNAL punishment.
Are the fires of Gehenna outside Jerusalem still burning? (Then I guess they really aren’t like an eternal punishment in an eternal fire, are they?)

It is true that we are told that the Greek word “aionios” (Strong’s G166), the word used to translate what Jesus originally said, means only: “perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well)” (Strong’s); or “1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2. without beginning; 3. without end, never to cease, everlasting” (Thayer).

But is that indeed so?

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Next time, we’ll look into the fact that Jesus’ original words weren’t spoken in Greek, and see where that leads.

For now though, it is sufficient to note that the range of meanings given in the lexicons (Strong’s and Thayer) for “aionios” is deficient. Not all the meanings as seen in the New Testament have been presented. Consider Paul’s words to Philemon regarding his runaway slave Onesimus:

Philemon 1:15: For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever (G166 - “for good” in the NIV). The rest of the letter (epistle) shows that Paul was asking Philemon to welcome Onesimus back without reserve and permanently. Until death did them part. Besides, that is the only perspective that makes sense.

We see that even when directly written in Greek (as opposed to being used to translate a word from a different language), “aionios” shows itself to not always mean “forever” or “eternal”. It can denote permanence up to a definite (even predefined) end in time.

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[atpollard]

How long will Philemon and Onesimus be Christian brothers?
Til death or forever?

 

[atpollard]

How sneaky of the Bible to say “eternal” when it really means “for a long while”.
Does that apply to “eternal life” as well? :noway:

 

[Pedrito]

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This is the continuation from Post #56.

We’ll address the shallow (necessarily shallow) comments in Posts #57 and #58 more closely in a later Post. Suffice it now to point out that the “receive him for ever” in Philemon 1:15 is speaking of a potential, irreversible, reconciling relationship between a forgiven malefactor slave and the forgiving aggrieved slave owner. That potential relationship pertains to their earthly lifespan only. There would be no subsequent hint of that “receiving” (reconciling relationship) in Heaven. In Heaven they would be independent co-equals – they would be independent co-equals, whether or not Onesimus returned to Philemon, and whether or not Philemon forgave Onesimus as requested. That is patently obvious, but conveniently overlooked. (Ephesians 6:5-6; Colossians 3:22, 1 Timothy 6:1-2; Titus 2:9; 1 Peter 2:18)

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In Post #46 the Author presented Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41, and pointed out the use of “eternal” (“aionios” – Strong’s G166) in the phrases “eternal fire”, “eternal punishment” and “eternal life”. He then asked: “Are the fires of Gehenna outside Jerusalem still burning? (Then I guess they really aren’t like an eternal punishment in an eternal fire, are they?)”

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In Post #56 we saw that the Greek word “aionios” (Strong’s G166) did not simply mean “forever”, “eternal”, etc. as the lexicons (translation dictionaries) that were referenced, suggested. Philemon 1:15 reveals a broader scope of meaning – “a time period that will have an end” – a broader scope than reported. (The Hebrew word from which it was translated has that broader scope also, as we’ll see.)

So even when translated into Greek, Jesus’ words were compatible with His word picture elsewhere of the Valley of Hinnom garbage dump (“gay hinnom” in Hebrew, “Gehenna” in Greek), that Jesus’ hearers knew annihilated everything that was thrown into it. The word picture is of an annihilation of the wicked from which there is no escape (eternal effectiveness), via a mechanism that would not always be required (will there ever be an end to wickedness in the future?).

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But Jesus wasn’t speaking Greek. He was speaking either Hebrew or the closely related language Aramaic. The thought patterns in closely related languages are normally similar. Those in dissimilar languages are often very different. As are the way thoughts are expressed. (Think of the word “run” in English. How many different meanings does it have? Heaps. Most languages would have to use a number of different words to translate our word “run”.) Scholars tell us that the structure of the Hebrew language lends itself readily to plays on words. English does too, to some degree. (He ran for the position of CEO, and while he ran the company, he ran it into the ground.)

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Coming up: we’ll have a look at the Hebrew word “olam” (Strong’s H5769) – we’ll look at the meanings given in the lexicons (translation dictionaries), and the meaning revealed by its actual use in the Holy Scriptures.

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[Pedrito]

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This is the continuation from Post #59.

In Post #46 the Author presented Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41, and pointed out that the use of “eternal” (“aionios” – Strong’s G166) in the phrases “eternal fire”, “eternal punishment” and “eternal life”. He then asked: “Are the fires of Gehenna outside Jerusalem still burning? (Then I guess they really aren’t like an eternal punishment in an eternal fire, are they?)”

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In a former Post we saw that corresponding words in languages that are not closely related, can have different ranges of meaning, and vice versa. Here we will concentrate on the meanings of the Hebrew word “olam”.

(For possible future reference later, scholars tell us that the structure of the Hebrew language (as God structured it, we must acknowledge) lends itself to plays on words. The plays on words that occur in Scripture can be highly significant. Lest there be any doubt about that, I ask: Where in the Holy Inspired Hebrew Scriptures is the following prophecy found: And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. Matthew 2:23)

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The Hebrew word “olam” is said to mean (Strong’s): 1. (properly) concealed, i.e. the vanishing point 2. (generally) time out of mind (past or future) 3. (practically) eternity 4. (frequentatively, adverbially, especially with prepositional prefix) always; and (Brown-Driver-Briggs) 1. long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world a. ancient time, long time (of past) b. (of future) i. for ever, always ii. continuous existence, perpetual iii. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity.

In any of the following verses, can we detect the meaning of “long duration” (as reported by Brown-Driver-Briggs, but omitted by Strong’s)?:

Exodus 12:14, Exodus 12:17, Exodus 12:24, Exodus 19:9, Exodus 21:6, Exodus 27:21, Exodus 29:28, Exodus 31:16, Exodus 40:15, Leviticus 16:29, Leviticus 16:34, Leviticus 24:3, Levitucus 25:34, Numbers 25:13, Deuteronomy 15:17, Joshua 4:7, Judges 2:1, 1 Samuel 1:22, 1 Samuel 20:23, 1 Samuel 20:42, 2 Samuel 7:24, 1 Kings 1:31, 2 Kings 5:27, 1 Chronicles 15:2, 1 Chronicles 23:13, Job 41:4, Psalms 105:10, Psalms 119:44, Psalm2 119:93, Psalms 119:111, Psalms 119:112, Proverbs 10:30, Isaiah 34:10, Isaiah 42:14, Jeremiah 7:7, Jeremiah 35:6, Joel 2:26, Joel 2:27, Joel 3:20, Jonah 2:6.

We thus see that Jesus’ words as originally spoken, are consistent with respect to His use of the well-known annihilating rubbish dump as a picture of the fate of the wicked.

That rubbish dump on one side of Jerusalem that annihilated everything that was thrown into it, was known as “The Valley of Hinnom” – “gay hinnom” – poorly transliterated into “Gehenna” in Greek. Jesus spoke of its fire as having permanence for the foreseeable future, and therefore from it and from its effect, there could be no escape.

The punishment, because once it is inflicted there is no hope of reversal, is indeed everlasting (eternal).

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