Hebrew mind set

[visionary]

If your definition of Christianity is the Roman/greek orthodox or some branch thereof version... then I can see you thinking that those who have dug into the roots of the faith and start walking and talking more like the Jewish brethren disconcerting.

Please do not be alarmed.. We have been greatly blessed by the wisdom of our Jewish brethren who have been in the faith of the Holy One of Israel a lot longer than any of us gentiles. While there are those who have taken on the traditions of the Jews, there are others within the MJ movement who have gone as far as seening the creator of Jewish faith, our redeemer Yeshua.. and truly do seek to be like Him.. without the traditions that hold no merit in God's eyes.

However, there are some Jewish traditions, we have found to have great insight and do merit further study and application as God leads us. Scripture has taken on a whole new depth that can not be understood outside the Hebrew mindset. In this we gentiles have been greatly blessed for coming to know our Jewish brethren and trying to understand their relationship with God as it is found in Yeshua. They are the keepers of the living oracles of God, and for the last days, they hold the keys, that I believe even they do not realise until Christ opens up theirs and our minds to some of these mysteries.

So have there been some who have be taken captive by the Jewish orthodox world? Yes. Has there been others who have clung to the scriptures and Yeshua, and just benefited from Jewish insights? Yes. Has this revealed contradictions to the traditions and some doctrines of Christianity? Sure. Are these contradictions those things that should be cleansed out of the christian faith? That is where studying and praying and convictions from God will reveal that which is His, whether it is in either camp. Is there still many conflicts of thought, doctrines, and attitudes on this matter? Absolutely. Is God leading? Yes. He is leading both parties until they are united as one in Him... Amen

 

[Pedrito]

As pointed out in Post #4 of the Red Heifer thread, Visionary has opened up some interesting and related thoughts in that thread and this one.

Her statements:

We have been greatly blessed by the wisdom of our Jewish brethren who have been in the faith of the Holy One of Israel a lot longer than any of us gentiles.

... there are some Jewish traditions, we have found to have great insight and do merit further study and application as God leads us. Scripture has taken on a whole new depth that can not be understood outside the Hebrew mindset.

show great insight.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an extension of those thoughts, I float the idea that it is not merely the traditions we can learn from.

Based on what Paul wrote in Romans 3:1,2,

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

might we not be displaying a degree of wisdom if we explore afresh the Inspired Hebrew Scriptures (our “Old Testament”) to gain an understanding of what God revealed about Himself, the mechanism He was putting in place to rescue people from death, etc., to the nation He described as His “firstborn son”?

Jesus and the apostles were members of that nation, and the things they spoke and wrote were spoken and written from that background and understanding.

 

[Pedrito]

I further suggest that people who are interested in doing that homework, should disregard the artificial interpretive statements issued by modern gentile commentators who consider that they know the Hebrew language better than the Hebrews themselves, and who superimpose gentile thought patterns over the natural Hebrew ones.

How would an American react to non-English speaking scholars ascribing spurious meanings to English words and commonly understood idiomatic phrases? Especially if they then drew sham conclusions about American culture and fundamental ideas based on those definitions? Not too kindly, I would expect.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Old Testament is as relevant today as it was in Paul's day. Among other things, it can clarify which Christian understandings align with God's original revelation of Himself and His mechanism for rescuing mankind, and which may not.

Don't forget what Paul wrote to Timothy regarding the Hebrew Scriptures:

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

(That's 2 Timothy 3:15 by the way.)


Jesus and the apostles spoke and wrote from the background and understanding of the Holy Revelation that was entrusted to them and their forebears by God.

Might it not behoove us to gain an understanding of their understandings?

Might it not indeed draw us closer to the God who gave them?

 

[visionary]

Sometimes it is the traditional Jewish understanding that sheds light on scripture in a way we have not understood before. For example... "Only the Father knows" May have been told that we will not know the day and hour of His return.. but there is more to that story than first impression.

Matthew 24:26, "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father"

He used a common Jewish figure of speech referring to a specific Jewish Festival. For the groom to get His bride He must first build them a home to the Father's satisfaction. So when his friends came by to see the progress and ask him when will it be finished, He would answer "only the Father knows".

Another example of Hebrew mindset... Yeshua was quoted in

Matthew 8:11 "I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven

Since we are talking about Jewish idioms, have you ever considered the meaning of these words? Specifically, our Lord used and confirmed common Jewish ideas
about the Day of the Lord - the millennium - and its relation to the Feast of Sukkot (Tabernacles) in Zech 14. In speaking, Yeshua referred to
the Feast of Tabernacles and its traditional guests of honour, Avraham, Yitzchak and Ya'acov, called the ushpizin (uoosh-piz-zin) or seven guests who get to sit at the head of the table. They are invited into every succah (tabernacle) at the Feast of Sukkot in the fall of the year. The seven shepherds in descending order are
1. Abraham,
2. Isaac,
3. Jacob,
4. Moses,
5. Aaron,
6. Joseph and
7. King David.

By mentioning the feast and three of the seven shepherds, His audience immediately understood the allusion to the Messianic age - "Millennium" or "Day" of the Lord.

Another example...
Yeshua's encounter with Nathanael

John 1:47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, He said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false". "How do You know me?" Nathanael asked. Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you".

Again, our Lord used a strong figure of speech pointing to a widely taught Jewish expectation concerning the resurrection and the millennium. In
brief, He told Natanael that he will be alive on the Last Day to inherit the land promised to Abraham. (Genesis 17:8). From Yeshua's words, Natanael understood he would participate in the resurrection since "that Day" was yet future. This is understood in the first century Jewish figure of speech, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree", which refers to life and study of Torah in the millennium (Midrash Rabbah
Genesis, Rabbah Song of Songs). Y'shua also told Natan'el that he is like righteous Abraham who received his reward for trusting God. This is
understood because of the phrase, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false". The millennial concept of the fig tree is found
throughout the Tanach including Z'kharyah 3:10: "In that day each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree", declares the
LORD Almighty. For this reason Natan'el responded emphatically to Yeshua and His words, saying:

"Rabbi, you are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel!"

 

[visionary]

Back for a moment to the "No man know". Because the moon was so important for Jewish date - setting, the authorities in charge of announcing the new moon in Jerusalem took great care to ensure the first day of the month was announced on time. To correctly announce the first day of the month, established by the new moon, was one of the Sanhedrin's greatest responsibilities. They had to ensure the people knew when the first of the month began 12 times a year! Therefore God said to the leaders of Israel:

Lev 23:4 These are the appointed times of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them

As soon as the new moon was announced, the first day of the month began. Once the beginning of the new month was established, the festivals and weekly Shabbats for the upcoming month were sanctified for observance. In Hebrew, those observances have always been called "appointed times" or moedim, literally "a sacred and set time". From God's perspective, the appointed times belong to Him (Midrash Rabbah Numbers, Vol 2.21.25, p. 852) and no one has the authority to change the celebration of an appointed time. To do so was a serious matter and great sin. Appointed times had to be kept because of their Messianic implications. If it was cloudy, then they would wait til the next day to see if they could see the new moon. That is why they did not know the day or hour.

 

[Pedrito]

Visionary, please keep the insights coming.

 

[visionary]

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee: how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when you shall say, BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD"

Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord is: Baruch Haba HaShem Adonai

In the Jewish wedding, when the groom approaches the chuppah, these words are said: "Blessed is he who comes". In the book, "Made in Heaven" by Orthodox Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, he explains that this is actually an idiomatic expression which means "welcome".

So, when Yeshua/Jesus said you will not see me (again) until you say, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord", this is actually "wedding talk" and a Hebraic way of saying, "Welcome!". Yeshua said that He will not return back to the earth at his second coming until He is welcomed as the bridegroom and His people are crying out for Him to return and be married to His people !!!

By the way Yom Kippur, is the wedding day.

 

[visionary]

Eze 16:25 Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.

Sometimes it is lost in the translation... in today's language.. we would say "spread her legs".

 

[visionary]

What is this "binding and loosening"?

Matthew 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18:18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

The Rabbis were constantly called upon by their community to interpret scriptural commands. Was such-and-such an action permitted? Was such-and such a thing or person ritually clean? The Bible, for example, forbids working on Saturday., but it does not define "work." As a result, the Rabbis were called upon to declare what an individual was and was not permitted to do on the Sabbath. They "bound" (prohibited) certain activities, and "loosened" (allowed) other activities. In the Hebrew way of thinking, binding and Loosing is the interpretation of the Torah. So Yeshua was saying that if you judge harshly, you shall be judged just as harshly. If you show mercy, mercy shall be shown you.

We also see Apostolic authority being exercised in the Acts 15 Council. On that occasion, they met to discuss the requirements for Gentiles. The question was, how was the Torah to be applied to them. What was necessary for their salvation? After hearing various sides of the question, James said, "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Not that the law was set aside, but there is allowances for learning. As they were expected to hear about Moses come Sabbath to learn more.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua was speaking to Jews in His Sermon on the Mount, and many of the Jews who listened to Him were of the Scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees, Chief Priests, and Elders, as well as thousands of non partisan Jews. Yeshua clearly states that He does not want any of the Jews to misunderstand what He has come to do. Therefore, He begins by saying, and I will use my colloquialism

‘Do not think or misunderstand My mission’. Furthermore, do not think or assume that I have come to destroy by interpreting incorrectly the Law that God gave to Moses on Mount Sinai, or the teaching of the Prophets that they gave to Israel under the anointing power of God. I have not come to misinterpret the Law and the Prophets. Rather, I have come to bring to you an understanding and interpretation of the Law and the Prophets which will explain how God wants you to behave in your lives, and how He wants you to relate to Him, to your families, friends, acquaintances, and enemies….with the right attitude.

The Rabbis discussed, and argued in the first century, about ‘the Law and the Prophets’. If they disagreed with each other….which they did frequently…they would accuse those who disagreed that they were ‘destroying the Law and the Prophets’.

For the Rabbis, ‘to destroy’ actually meant that a particular interpretation of some passage or verse was wrong, and therefore, was destroying ‘the Law and the Prophets’. It did NOT mean, and never has meant, that ‘the Law and the Prophets’ was replaced, abrogated, or superceded.

Similarly, if two Rabbis agreed with each other about the interpretation and understanding of a passage, one might say to the other:
‘You are fulfilling the Law and the Prophets by interpreting this passage as God intended.’

Yeshua was using a common Hebrew idiom that was used time and again in Rabbi’s discussions. He was saying that His mission was to explain, and correctly interpret, ‘the Law and the Prophets’…..so that ALL people could understand how to behave towards each other and towards God.

 

[visionary]

Ever wonder why "National" hot dogs are made of only the front half of the cow? Because in their mind, the hind leg is not kosher, because Jacob hurt his leg when struggling with the angel.

 

[psalms 91]

Thank you, I never knew that

 

[Pedrito]

With respect to Jacob's sinew (Genesis 35:25,32), it is thought by a number of people that the sciatic nerve is what was damaged. That nerve runs through the hip. A physiotherapist who attends a Bible study that I do, confirmed that understanding. Damage to that nerve can be quite debilitating. The nerve can take slightly different paths through the hip area in different people.

The nerve can be damaged by a blow struck into the hollow running inside the hip (or even by a blow struck under the buttock). This appears to be what Jacob's visitor did. Strangely enough it can also be damaged imperceptibly slowly but definitely in a male, by continually sitting on a wallet kept in the hip pocket.

Apparently Jacob's sciatic nerve (if that's what it was) was damaged beyond repair.

 

[Pedrito]

In Post #4 in the Red Heifer thread, I mentioned that by expanding our perspective to include Jewish understandings, a very positive and worthwhile thing (I used the term “visionary”), the poster named visionary also might have opened a Pandora's box (in some people's minds, later on).

What I meant was, her readers might start to wonder what Jesus and the apostles actually understood and meant when they used key words and expressions not yet mentioned by visionary. The hearers and readers of Jesus and the apostles would naturally have understood those same fundamental meanings.

And visionary's readers might also wonder whether or not some original Jewish (Hebrew) meanings were changed when the leaders of the early church (not the apostolic church) with their pagan background, launched their highly successful campaign to expunge all Jewish influence from the church of their time. And some of visionary's readers may be tempted to investigate.

With that in mind, I request visionary, with her specialised knowledge, to provide us with answers to the following set of questions.

Based on what God revealed about Himself to the nation of Israel in the Tanach (Inspired Hebrew Scriptures, Old Testament), and based on the fact that Jesus and the apostles were Jewish:

1. What was in Jesus' mind when he used terms such as “Father”, “my heavenly Father”, “your heavenly Father”, “your Father which is in heaven”, “Our Father which art in heaven”, “the Father”, etc.?
2. What was in the minds of the apostles when they used similar terminology?
3. To Whom did their Jewish hearers and readers understand Jesus and the apostles to be referring?

Thanks in advance.

 

[charis en excelcis]

I am a complete and satisfied Gentile. This is not from lack of education or appreciation for Judaism. I do not follow the Law written in the Old Testament, because it is insufficient. I find that Judaism is looking into a mirror and not truly seeing who you are in Christ.

 

[visionary]

Engagement was considered marriage in biblical times in the hebrew mindset. That's why Joseph was contemplating divorcing Mary when he found out she was pregnant with our Messiah (Matthew 1:19). Even to this day, a Ketubah signed between a couple before 2 or 3 witnesses is binding as a marriage, even before they consummate.

 

[visionary]

I am a complete and satisfied Gentile. This is not from lack of education or appreciation for Judaism. I do not follow the Law written in the Old Testament, because it is insufficient. I find that Judaism is looking into a mirror and not truly seeing who you are in Christ.

To understand scripture you have to understand the hebrew mindset, or you will get a roman/greek philosophy based upon ancient gods of their time.

 

[visionary]

....<snip>...

With that in mind, I request visionary, with her specialised knowledge, to provide us with answers to the following set of questions.

Based on what God revealed about Himself to the nation of Israel in the Tanach (Inspired Hebrew Scriptures, Old Testament), and based on the fact that Jesus and the apostles were Jewish:

1. What was in Jesus' mind when he used terms such as “Father”, “my heavenly Father”, “your heavenly Father”, “your Father which is in heaven”, “Our Father which art in heaven”, “the Father”, etc.?
2. What was in the minds of the apostles when they used similar terminology?
3. To Whom did their Jewish hearers and readers understand Jesus and the apostles to be referring?

Thanks in advance.

That is the same for both hebrews, Yeshua, and today's understanding with regard to "Father" "Abba" etc when speaking of God, our Creator.

 

[visionary]

Many of us have read the famous quote of our Messiah in the gospels when he declared that his second coming would be at a time that “no man knows.” But how many of us knew that he was actually making a reference to the “Feast of Trumpets” when he spoke this Hebrew mindset?

I think I will back up here and say that when I talk about the Hebrew mindset, I am talking about idioms for example in English “Its raining cats and dogs outside!” Everyone knows that when this expression is being used, that there are not actually cats and dogs falling out of the sky. It is an expression that means that it is raining very heavily. Only those who speak English would understand this expression. But in other languages, it does not make sense.

Such is the case with this Hebrew Idiom for the Feast of Trumpets! The Feast of Trumpets was known by those in ancient Jerusalem as “The Day That No Man Knows.” Why you ask? Well, it is because this is the only feast that is determined by the sighting of the new moon, and so “no man” can calculate the exact day or hour of when this feast day will begin.

 

[psalms 91]

Many of us have read the famous quote of our Messiah in the gospels when he declared that his second coming would be at a time that “no man knows.” But how many of us knew that he was actually making a reference to the “Feast of Trumpets” when he spoke this Hebrew mindset?

I think I will back up here and say that when I talk about the Hebrew mindset, I am talking about idioms for example in English “Its raining cats and dogs outside!” Everyone knows that when this expression is being used, that there are not actually cats and dogs falling out of the sky. It is an expression that means that it is raining very heavily. Only those who speak English would understand this expression. But in other languages, it does not make sense.

Such is the case with this Hebrew Idiom for the Feast of Trumpets! The Feast of Trumpets was known by those in ancient Jerusalem as “The Day That No Man Knows.” Why you ask? Well, it is because this is the only feast that is determined by the sighting of the new moon, and so “no man” can calculate the exact day or hour of when this feast day will begin.

Yes and again why understanding of the Hebrew mindset is critical to understanding what Jesus said