Have we lost the faith of our fathers?

[Josiah]

There are lots of reasons to accept or reject Calvinist Doctrines

[SIDE NOTE]

IMO, that's true - much good in Calvinism and some I'm uncomfortable with. Other discussions for other threads and subforums here at CH....

I too get a little frustrated by the focus on what one man (may) have said or written (even important ones like Luther or Calvin) rather than what official positions are, what dogmas are officially held by various faith communities. It amazes me that NON-Lutherans often quote Luther more than Lutherans do! I've been going to my Lutheran church for several years now and I cannot recall ONE time when Luther was ever quoted or referenced in a sermon - not once. I'm sure THIS YEAR that will happen (with the 500th anniversary of the Lutheran Reformation) but not so far... I'm far from an expert on Luther (and in seminary, Lutheran pastors don't study his life at all) but from what I can tell, he was a caring pastor with a very good brain who HAPPENED to get sucked into one of the biggest ecclestical earthquakes of all time - a role for which he was ill prepared and not at all gifted - becoming the epicenter of an explosion. But he was just a sinful bloat..... a bit like Trump (lol) in that he had something to say on everything and often POORLY worded that, just not aware that the world was listening and eager to twist it every which way. He said some very stupid things..... and some very wise things..... but none of it is regarded as normative or authoritative. Lutherans look to SCRIPTURE and under that Ecumenical Tradition and under that, our Lutheran Confessions. Not to Luther or any other guy or gal. In fact, if there is anything a bit remarkable about Lutheranism compared to the rest of Western Christianity, it's the Lutheran propensity for the word and concept of mystery, I think what often characterizes Lutheranism vis-a-vis other Western faith communities is that often we're the ones being quiet, accepting what is as what is - without dogmatically connecting the dots or filling in the blanks or dogmatizing our unique theories and "logic." My Greek Orthodox friend says she likes Lutheranism better than the rest of Western Christianity because, "Lutherans are the most humble, the most willing to shut up." That may be true.

My expertise is in physics, not history - but from what I've gathered, ALL sides in the Reformation could have acted a whole lot better. It was a mega-earthquake, centuries in the making, and it broke with power and effect far greater than the characters involved.


[END SIDE POINT]




But a bit TO the point,ALL faith communities have "fathers." Men whose writings DID have a major impact on the theology that developed in that community, in the Confessions of that community. It was always a case of "pick and choose" because none of them (not even Luther or Calvin) expressed exactly the doctrine that finally was embraced but TOGETHER, there were men of influence - now regarded as "fathers." We have many in Lutheranism. There are many in Catholicism. NONE are seen as always and completely right. NONE are ever embraced with "faith" - only respect (variously)


It must be noted too that these classic positions are RARELY proclaimed as such. There are Catholics and then there are Catholics. There are Calvinists and then there are Calvinists. Some of my Catholic teachers directly contradicted others. I now realize some of my Catholic teachers (even my pastor) taught things that I'm pretty sure are quite variant from what is the official RCC position. The primary teacher of the First Communion classes in my (former) Catholic parish freely stated that Catholic Churches no longer teach that Catholic position on Communion (made DOGMA in 1551) but rather the Eastern Orthodox view. Sometimes it's ADMITTED what is taught is not what is taught! I've disagreed with fellow Lutherans, too. There is a distinction between what a faith community actually officially HOLDS and what people in that community SAY and affirm. And that sure complicates things!!



Pax Christi


- Josiah



.

 

[atpollard]

Evil enough. He had him killed. Paul also wrote letters to get christians killed and was with the execution of Stephen, but he wrote his letters that are in the Bible after he converted. How can God speak to you how to interpret the Bible if you live in darkness.
They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me.

My grandfather worked for the Bakelite compay during WW2 and was a production chemist manufacturing the 'plastic' domes that allowed radar equipped night fighters and the planes that bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Since my grandfather probably supported the murder of Japanese civilians during the war and actively participated (even if he never left New Jersey) should we disregard anything he might say about God, even agreeing with Saint Paul and the early church fathers (like Luther and Calvin did) because of his political actions in service to the state (exactly as you reject the thoughts of Calvin on the ground of what he was alleged to have done without even bothering to learn the details).

I am not here to convince you of the truth of Calvinism (that is actually one of the basic points of Reformed Theology), I simply ask you to reject Doctrine on its own merit and not some slander of a man's name. For the record, Calvinism did not begin with Calvin, nor did it end with him. For example, TULIP is not something that Calvin ever came up with. Calvin and Luther and Huss all simply looked at the then current mess in the Catholic Church (like selling salvation and corruption) and urged the church to return to the teachings of the early church fathers, which were in turn based on the writings of Paul and the Apostles in the Bible. The Catholic Church would not in their life times (but later did clean its house) so they and their followers chose to return to the Christianity of the Church Fathers without the later additions. The things that the early fathers disagreed on, are the same issues that divide most Protestant denominations. They divide protestant denominations because the Bible contains what the Lutherans call 'mysteries'.

 

[Josiah]

My grandfather worked for the Bakelite compay during WW2 and was a production chemist manufacturing the 'plastic' domes that allowed radar equipped night fighters and the planes that bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Since my grandfather probably supported the murder of Japanese civilians during the war and actively participated (even if he never left New Jersey) should we disregard anything he might say about God, even agreeing with Saint Paul and the early church fathers (like Luther and Calvin did) because of his political actions in service to the state (exactly as you reject the thoughts of Calvin on the ground of what he was alleged to have done without even bothering to learn the details).

I am not here to convince you of the truth of Calvinism (that is actually one of the basic points of Reformed Theology), I simply ask you to reject Doctrine on its own merit and not some slander of a man's name. For the record, Calvinism did not begin with Calvin, nor did it end with him. For example, TULIP is not something that Calvin ever came up with. Calvin and Luther and Huss all simply looked at the then current mess in the Catholic Church (like selling salvation and corruption) and urged the church to return to the teachings of the early church fathers, which were in turn based on the writings of Paul and the Apostles in the Bible. The Catholic Church would not in their life times (but later did clean its house) so they and their followers chose to return to the Christianity of the Church Fathers without the later additions. The things that the early fathers disagreed on, are the same issues that divide most Protestant denominations..

I totally agree with your POINT (if I understand your point correctly).....


WAY off topic: You're the expert in Calvinism, not me, from from what I've heard, Calvinism became the classic, confessional form it is NOT as a direct result of Calvin (and his classic Institutes), not vis-a-vis Catholicism or Lutheranism - but as a result of a division in its own ranks, what eventually resulted in two split offs: Arminianism and Universalism. Both grew out of Calvinism and caused enormous debates in Calvinism - resulting in the Calvinism of the Confessions, the classic/traditional Calvinism we have today. Indeed, my very limited experience with Calvinists is that they DO tend to always have those two twists on Calvinism in mind. I'm probably all wet.... (never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed). BTW, Lutheranism was formed entirely vis-a-vis Catholicism (the form of that day) and really can't be understood outside of that context. While there can be found things in our Confessions related to Zwingli (and ergo in part to Calvinism), the milieu was purely Catholicism. The early Lutheran fathers were all former Catholics, all trained in Catholicism. Only later did Lutheran/Calvinism "debates" happen but neither was formed vis-a-vis the other.

They divide protestant denominations because the Bible contains what the Lutherans call 'mysteries

What a very LUTHERAN thing for you to say, LOL.....




Sorry for the slight diversion....


Pax Christi


- Josiah



.

 

[Rens]

My grandfather worked for the Bakelite compay during WW2 and was a production chemist manufacturing the 'plastic' domes that allowed radar equipped night fighters and the planes that bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Since my grandfather probably supported the murder of Japanese civilians during the war and actively participated (even if he never left New Jersey) should we disregard anything he might say about God, even agreeing with Saint Paul and the early church fathers (like Luther and Calvin did) because of his political actions in service to the state (exactly as you reject the thoughts of Calvin on the ground of what he was alleged to have done without even bothering to learn the details).

I am not here to convince you of the truth of Calvinism (that is actually one of the basic points of Reformed Theology), I simply ask you to reject Doctrine on its own merit and not some slander of a man's name. For the record, Calvinism did not begin with Calvin, nor did it end with him. For example, TULIP is not something that Calvin ever came up with. Calvin and Luther and Huss all simply looked at the then current mess in the Catholic Church (like selling salvation and corruption) and urged the church to return to the teachings of the early church fathers, which were in turn based on the writings of Paul and the Apostles in the Bible. The Catholic Church would not in their life times (but later did clean its house) so they and their followers chose to return to the Christianity of the Church Fathers without the later additions. The things that the early fathers disagreed on, are the same issues that divide most Protestant denominations. They divide protestant denominations because the Bible contains what the Lutherans call 'mysteries'.

I think there's a big difference between your grandfather and that. I read about it. I also read calvinists have no idea what Calvin even said btw, but you still see people in those extreme reformed churches questioning if they're saved before they die or if God has chosen them to go to hell, so at least that part is quite evil and a lot who just became atheists cause they couldn't keep up with it anymore.

 

[atpollard]

What a very LUTHERAN thing for you to say, LOL.....

[Shhh. Don't tell anyone, but God, to show his sense of humor, had my unsaved Roman Catholic mother (God is too scary, so she just talks to Mary and lights lots of candles) and my Atheist father work out a compromise for the grandparents and I was baptized Lutheran as an infant. One of exactly three times in my life that I set foot in a Lutheran Church. However, knowing that I was baptized Lutheran always made me curious about the life and writing of Martin Luther.]

... so I come by it naturally.

 

[atpollard]

I think there's a big difference between your grandfather and that. I read about it. I also read calvinists have no idea what Calvin even said btw, but you still see people in those extreme reformed churches questioning if they're saved before they die or if God has chosen them to go to hell, so at least that part is quite evil and a lot who just became atheists cause they couldn't keep up with it anymore.

I'll end here because I'm way off topic and that's not fair to the OP, but anyone unsure about salvation has not understood Calvinism or has been taught a lie that someone just called Calvinism.

 

[Rens]