Hard sayings in Hebrews

[user1234]

Btw, if someone knows someone preaching somewhere saying 'go fornicate, youre saved',
can you please send them our way so we can have a little chat?
Either we straighten them out, (or else we find out they're right and lets all go fornicatin' !) Dont think so, tho)

Really, who are these ppl, Id really like names and would like to hear that preaching with my own ears.

Bc I often hear that....ppl accuse us, who are saved by grace, that we're telling ppl to go live like the devil. I never actually HEAR anyone preach that, but I hear these accusations, and things like 'false grace'.

I dont know of anything false about Gods grace. It cost Jesus His very life and the wrath of God poured out upon Him for the grace of God to effectually save us. Nothing false or cheap about it, it is the most expensive precious and true gift anyone ever purchased, and we receive it by faith.

If a person doesnt believe it, i.e. is not saved, but still wants to claim to be a christian, or have others assume and say they are (thats risky) well, maybe THAT'S a false faith, but false grace? Not sure what that's really supposed to mean.

Meanwhile, fornication, pornication, masturbation, adulteration... I bet theres as much or more of that going on among legalist and works-preachers and 'priests', religious denomination types, etc., as any saved ppl out there, and perhaps the unsaved world as well.

But who hasnt committed some kind of sin on some level, after getting saved?
God didnt send Jesus into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. Praise the Lord for His love and grace!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Btw, if someone knows someone preaching somewhere saying 'go fornicate, youre saved',
can you please send them our way so we can have a little chat?...

There was a televangelist from Californian who preached that. He died a while back. Dr. Gene Scott

A word of caution about the video, Dr. Gene Scott uses some profane words and presents some profane ideas.

 

[Imalive]

Btw, if someone knows someone preaching somewhere saying 'go fornicate, youre saved',
can you please send them our way so we can have a little chat?
Either we straighten them out, (or else we find out they're right and lets all go fornicatin' !) Dont think so, tho)

Really, who are these ppl, Id really like names and would like to hear that preaching with my own ears.

Bc I often hear that....ppl accuse us, who are saved by grace, that we're telling ppl to go live like the devil. I never actually HEAR anyone preach that, but I hear these accusations, and things like 'false grace'.

I dont know of anything false about Gods grace. It cost Jesus His very life and the wrath of God poured out upon Him for the grace of God to effectually save us. Nothing false or cheap about it, it is the most expensive precious and true gift anyone ever purchased, and we receive it by faith.

If a person doesnt believe it, i.e. is not saved, but still wants to claim to be a christian, or have others assume and say they are (thats risky) well, maybe THAT'S a false faith, but false grace? Not sure what that's really supposed to mean.

Meanwhile, fornication, pornication, masturbation, adulteration... I bet theres as much or more of that going on among legalist and works-preachers and 'priests', religious denomination types, etc., as any saved ppl out there, and perhaps the unsaved world as well.

But who hasnt committed some kind of sin on some level, after getting saved?
God didnt send Jesus into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. Praise the Lord for His love and grace!

A Belgian girl on a Dutch forum had sex w her boyfriend. She felt bad about it. On Dutch christian forums you can just type that stuff and everyone thinks its normal. So she asked her Belgian pastor from an evangelical church about it. He said: I think God doesn't find that bad.
Month later they broke up.
I remember 20 years ago there was one pastor who would rebuke someone on a podium for that, cause God told him.
Nowadays, if a church is too legalistic and you wanna have sex before marriage you just go to a church where noone even talks about it. One guy sent us a letter: we wanna marry in a year and our church is so legalistic about us living together. Can we come to your church? I lived together w someone while being legally married to another. Met him in the crazy house. Called a pastor for help. He didnt even warn me w hell. He said I was right.
I was living together w that guy. Went to a church. Wasnt even divorced yet from my ex. They just laid hands on me. Hey why dont you 2 get married? Not one person gave me a rebuke or said: what on earth do you think you're doing? No hear. It's all grace. It's all fine. The guy who did the music always hung out in the coffeeshop. In coffeeshops they dont sell coffee but pot.

 

[user1234]

A Belgian girl on a Dutch forum had sex w her boyfriend. She felt bad about it. On Dutch christian forums you can just type that stuff and everyone thinks its normal. So she asked her Belgian pastor from an evangelical church about it. He said: I think God doesn't find that bad.
Month later they broke up.
I remember 20 years ago there was one pastor who would rebuke someone on a podium for that, cause God told him.
Nowadays, if a church is too legalistic and you wanna have sex before marriage you just go to a church where noone even talks about it. One guy sent us a letter: we wanna marry in a year and our church is so legalistic about us living together. Can we come to your church? I lived together w someone while being legally married to another. Met him in the crazy house. Called a pastor for help. He didnt even warn me w hell. He said I was right.
I was living together w that guy. Went to a church. Wasnt even divorced yet from my ex. They just laid hands on me. Hey why dont you 2 get married? Not one person gave me a rebuke or daid: what on earth do you think you're doing? No hear. It's all grace. It's all fine. The guy who did the music always hung out in the coffeeshop. In coffeeshops they dont sell coffee but pot.

Outrageous.
Were you saved then?
If so, are you still saved?
Or did you get saved after all that?
Still, though, even tho I believe what youre telling me, I havent heard any teaching like that in an official sense myself.
You can always find some weirdo that wants to twist scripture and teach false doctrines.
A whole denomination does it all the time.

But I wouldnt take what some nutjob or even some religious denomination or cult teaches, to say that when the bible says salvation is by grace alone, and when we're saved, its once for all forever, isnt true. osas is true, everyone in heaven right now will testify to that.

Ppl teach against the bible all the time.
Gods Word stands true.
I wish we could rejoice together in that.

So much.

 

[MennoSota]

No condemnation if you crucify the flesh and get lead by the Spirit. A big soda is nonsense, but Paul said you shouldn't even eat w someone who is called a brother but is a drunkard or stingy. Remove those from your midst.

1 cor 5 after the guy living w his dads mom:

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[

You are not the one crucifying your flesh. The Bible says you...were...crucified with Christ. It's past tense. Done at the cross of Calvary, by Jesus. You are NOT actively involved. Your salvation and security have been established by Christ alone, through grace alone and secured by God's gift of faith alone.
Paul would ask you the same question as he asked the Galatians. Having been saved by grace, why then do you fall back to being kept by works of the law? May those who preach such things be accursed. It is anathema.
Imalive, please stop binding yourself under the curse of the law. The law condemns, but Christ frees you from condemnation. Live in Christ.

 

[mtzopera]

Look at it this way. If a person was given a gift, used that gift, shared that gift and cherished that gift but then one day decided that the gift no longer held any value, that person no longer has that GIFT. In the case of Hebrews, the writer is making a clear distinction between the Old and the New Covenant. There were many Jews who decided that the "law" was more credible and important than the blood of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. So they chose the old covenant sacrifice which gave "no forgiveness" and tossed the gift of the final sacrifice for all sin aside. It would be impossible to bring such people back into repentance as the grace of God no longer exists in their life. God has given them up to a reprobate mind.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Look at it this way. If a person was given a gift, used that gift, shared that gift and cherished that gift but then one day decided that the gift no longer held any value, that person no longer has that GIFT. In the case of Hebrews, the writer is making a clear distinction between the Old and the New Covenant. There were many Jews who decided that the "law" was more credible and important than the blood of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. So they chose the old covenant sacrifice which gave "no forgiveness" and tossed the gift of the final sacrifice for all sin aside. It would be impossible to bring such people back into repentance as the grace of God no longer exists in their life. God has given them up to a reprobate mind.

That's a reasonable view.

 

[Imalive]

You are not the one crucifying your flesh. The Bible says you...were...crucified with Christ. It's past tense. Done at the cross of Calvary, by Jesus. You are NOT actively involved. Your salvation and security have been established by Christ alone, through grace alone and secured by God's gift of faith alone.
Paul would ask you the same question as he asked the Galatians. Having been saved by grace, why then do you fall back to being kept by works of the law? May those who preach such things be accursed. It is anathema.
Imalive, please stop binding yourself under the curse of the law. The law condemns, but Christ frees you from condemnation. Live in Christ.

Yes but by the Spirit you can put to death the deeds of the body if you realize you died and are raised with Christ.

 

[Imalive]

Outrageous.
Were you saved then?
If so, are you still saved?
Or did you get saved after all that?
Still, though, even tho I believe what youre telling me, I havent heard any teaching like that in an official sense myself.
You can always find some weirdo that wants to twist scripture and teach false doctrines.
A whole denomination does it all the time.

But I wouldnt take what some nutjob or even some religious denomination or cult teaches, to say that when the bible says salvation is by grace alone, and when we're saved, its once for all forever, isnt true. osas is true, everyone in heaven right now will testify to that.

Ppl teach against the bible all the time.
Gods Word stands true.
I wish we could rejoice together in that.

So much.

No I repented again. I thought He didnt exist anymore and then I thought the evil in the world was enough proof of satan existing, so I asked Him back in my heart.
It's not just one nutjob who teaches that.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes but by the Spirit you can put to death the deeds of the body if you realize you died and are raised with Christ.

You are talking about our sanctification (being set apart), not our salvation.
God certainly commands us to do many things, not the least being "flee sexual immorality", but our failure to set ourselves apart does not stop God from upholding his adoption of us as his child. Like the Father of the prodigal son, God will never leave us nor forsake us.

 

[Imalive]

You are talking about our sanctification (being set apart), not our salvation.
God certainly commands us to do many things, not the least being "flee sexual immorality", but our failure to set ourselves apart does not stop God from upholding his adoption of us as his child. Like the Father of the prodigal son, God will never leave us nor forsake us.

He left and he was dead. But he came back. One good thing about lost sheep and lost sons, they never walk away again. They took my son from me w 3 months. Lol when I got him back I couldn't walk away 2 meter. He'd scream.

 

[psalms 91]

You are talking about our sanctification (being set apart), not our salvation.
God certainly commands us to do many things, not the least being "flee sexual immorality", but our failure to set ourselves apart does not stop God from upholding his adoption of us as his child. Like the Father of the prodigal son, God will never leave us nor forsake us.

He doesnt leave but we can walk away and Hebrews 6 makes that clear along with a myrid of verses that point to our continuing in His word and walking the path of righteousness. We can reject Him and we can also have God leave our temple by polluting it.

 

[user1234]

No I repented again. I thought He didnt exist anymore and then I thought the evil in the world was enough proof of satan existing, so I asked Him back in my heart.
It's not just one nutjob who teaches that.

I know, Ima, as I said, there are whole denominations, and cults, and aberrant groups, that have nutjobs that teach all kinds of nonsense.
I dont know which question you answered No to, were you saved before then and had backslidden, or did you get saved after that? ...
... But it doesnt matter, the important thing now and what makes me glad is youre saved now, and if so its because Jesus saved you. (In fact, alot of the personal stuff should probly be left off of here, when it comes to marriages, kids, sexual sins, etc., it's still a public forum with guest lurkers and who knows who with what motivation, and posts remain out there once theyre posted, mostly....Just my opinion about that bc I care, not to condemn).

But anyway,
There is so much confusion, thanks in large part to religious false teaching, aacckk, that has so influenced much of our thinking, I wonder if God doesnt get more annoyed with that than the 'sins' that everybodys always running around warning and condemning everybody else about. And salvation is constantly getting muddied over because of bible verses taken out of context or being confused with sanctification. Its a real joy-stealer.

This so-called 'grace infused with works', ...its not grace at all.
The biggest proponents of it (and that attaches Jesus' name, much of the doctrine Jesus hates) are the RomanCatholic denomination, and of course, theres the 'Holiness movements' the 'New apostolic reformation' nonsense, ... the 'oneness' pentecostals, and the cults and things like the JWs, the SDAs, the Mormons), so much works-based religion in one form or another.

And all of those cant stand the message of being saved by grace thru faith in Christ alone.
It just bugs them to no end that they have to keep all this religious teaching and practice and still have no certainty, while all these other ppl are simply trusting in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ and theyre saved.

So they teach this grace/works religion and unfortunately sweep many into that pit thru deception. I KNOW Imalive knows better in her heart, but its a very powerful message and there are some very insideous ways deception gets delivered. I believe God will work it out.

I understand theres gonna be differences of opinions on some things, and most of us have different things we struggle with along the path of growing in grace and the knowledge of Jesus... We're all a work in progress, right? I still say that everyone in heaven is osas .... Can we all at least agree with THAT?

 

[Imalive]

nm

 

[user1234]

.

Again, this is all mixed up.
I am not talking about 'Holiness preaching' in your own local church, or where you might be at any given part of your walk/growth w Jesus (although I do think theres something lacking and we hurt ourselves bouncing from church to church alot. But if theres false teaching, then its best to find another church).
But no, what Im talking about is not your standard Sunday sermon from your own church/pastor.
What I mean is whole denominations, or big movements, or small groups, or websites, or individuals, that TEACH AS DOCTRINE, grace with works or lawkeeping or ritual necessity FOR SALVATION.

How to be saved.

Not sanctification sermons from your local pastor where you might attend church every week.

Im talking about like theres a 'holiness' movement thats nothing more than fear-mongering and condemnation ... Its works-righteousness. (Nothing Holy about it).
Or any of those I mentioned that have a works-for-salvation message.

Or those that then confuse it even worse by trying to say your saved by grace...but then you can lose your salvation, so instead of good news and walking in the joy of salvation, they want you living in fear and doubt and worry that you might maybe better watch out.....!

They jump right out of grace and exalting Jesus as the author and finisher of our faith, and place the emphasis right back on self, and our ability (or lack of it) to keep ourselves saved.

MennoSota and I both addressed this when we mentioned how PAUL addressed it in Galatians. He asked (knowing the answer) Have you begun in the Spirit (of grace) but now continue in the flesh or lawkeeping?

He said that works 'frustrates' the grace of God.

See...we are saved by grace, kept by grace, brought home by grace...it's all the work of God.
Now in the meantime, if you are struggling with certain sins, first of all, theres plenty of scripture to help combat that.

No where are we told to warn ppl that theyre going to lose their salvation, and no where are we told to tell ppl to go live like the devil. Theres a proper way to counsel from scripture, and it is different for someone whos saved than for someone whos an unbeliever.
Within that, it varies from person to person, case to case.
But that is dealing with a separate issue.

But anyone preaching a 'GOSPEL' (tho it isnt) that tells you to go sin like the devil, God doesnt care, is a moron and doesnt belong in a pulpit (or counseling anyone either).
By the same token, anyone preaching a 'GOSPEL' (tho it isnt) that tells you you can lose your salvation (you better watch out, Im telling you why ... santa God is coming to town to strike you down as soon as He sees you sleeping and not being good for goodness sakes)
doesnt understand the grace of God (or just doesnt like it) and ALSO doesnt belong in a pulpit or counselling.

Jesus loves you, He died for your sin, He rose from the grave and He's coming again. What did He say?.... Neither do I condemn you...go, and sin no more.
Thats good news. Jesus...loves...you!

 

[user1234]

Sorry, Imalive , I saw you said nm in #34, so I went back and editted out the post I quoted from you, ok?

 

[MennoSota]

He doesnt leave but we can walk away and Hebrews 6 makes that clear along with a myrid of verses that point to our continuing in His word and walking the path of righteousness. We can reject Him and we can also have God leave our temple by polluting it.

No. The entirety of Hebrews screams out...No!

 

[Imalive]

Again, this is all mixed up.
I am not talking about 'Holiness preaching' in your own local church, or where you might be at any given part of your walk/growth w Jesus (although I do think theres something lacking and we hurt ourselves bouncing from church to church alot. But if theres false teaching, then its best to find another church).
But no, what Im talking about is not your standard Sunday sermon from your own church/pastor.
What I mean is whole denominations, or big movements, or small groups, or websites, or individuals, that TEACH AS DOCTRINE, grace with works or lawkeeping or ritual necessity FOR SALVATION.

How to be saved.

Not sanctification sermons from your local pastor where you might attend church every week.

Im talking about like theres a 'holiness' movement thats nothing more than fear-mongering and condemnation ... Its works-righteousness. (Nothing Holy about it).
Or any of those I mentioned that have a works-for-salvation message.

Or those that then confuse it even worse by trying to say your saved by grace...but then you can lose your salvation, so instead of good news and walking in the joy of salvation, they want you living in fear and doubt and worry that you might maybe better watch out.....!

They jump right out of grace and exalting Jesus as the author and finisher of our faith, and place the emphasis right back on self, and our ability (or lack of it) to keep ourselves saved.

MennoSota and I both addressed this when we mentioned how PAUL addressed it in Galatians. He asked (knowing the answer) Have you begun in the Spirit (of grace) but now continue in the flesh or lawkeeping?

He said that works 'frustrates' the grace of God.

See...we are saved by grace, kept by grace, brought home by grace...it's all the work of God.
Now in the meantime, if you are struggling with certain sins, first of all, theres plenty of scripture to help combat that.

No where are we told to warn ppl that theyre going to lose their salvation, and no where are we told to tell ppl to go live like the devil. Theres a proper way to counsel from scripture, and it is different for someone whos saved than for someone whos an unbeliever.
Within that, it varies from person to person, case to case.
But that is dealing with a separate issue.

But anyone preaching a 'GOSPEL' (tho it isnt) that tells you to go sin like the devil, God doesnt care, is a moron and doesnt belong in a pulpit (or counseling anyone either).
By the same token, anyone preaching a 'GOSPEL' (tho it isnt) that tells you you can lose your salvation (you better watch out, Im telling you why ... santa God is coming to town to strike you down as soon as He sees you sleeping and not being good for goodness sakes)
doesnt understand the grace of God (or just doesnt like it) and ALSO doesnt belong in a pulpit or counselling.

Jesus loves you, He died for your sin, He rose from the grave and He's coming again. What did He say?.... Neither do I condemn you...go, and sin no more.
Thats good news. Jesus...loves...you!

I dont know that kind of preaching. In Holland it's stiff reformed dont do nothing on sunday new Judaism or evangelical. I like holiness preachers like Steve Hill and those old revival preachers. Rest I don't know. Catholicism in Holland as far as I know is far from legalistic, unless you want to call that they celebrate carnival legalistic.

 

[NewCreation435]

There is tension, but that does not give license to floating between views because of the tension. We wrestle with the text and consider other passages that give a very clear light so that we might understand. We have the presupposition that God does not contradict himself and that all scripture is given by inspiration of God, thus we must work to understand how an initial, seeming, contradiction fits with what is very clearly taught. To throw down the blanket of "it's a mystery" seems lazy to me. It seems like a jellyfish approach to scripture.

Your conclusions seem very harsh to me. What is wrong with acknowledging the tension in these verses? People can read the same verses and come to very different conclusions based on their training and background and education. I think to lightly brush these verses off is more of a problem in my eyes than taking it seriously and saying "I haven't yet reached a conclusion about these verses". or something to that effect.

 

[MennoSota]

Your conclusions seem very harsh to me. What is wrong with acknowledging the tension in these verses? People can read the same verses and come to very different conclusions based on their training and background and education. I think to lightly brush these verses off is more of a problem in my eyes than taking it seriously and saying "I haven't yet reached a conclusion about these verses". or something to that effect.

The context of Hebrews gives us a better understanding than a first glance, narrow focus gives us.
It is very disappointing to see people cherry pick verses and create doctrines from them.
The Quran is written without context. One verse could be written years before or after the next verse. But, the Bible is contextual. It needs to be read as a whole. Yet, very few people seem to want to do that much work. It's just easier to read a couple sentences and then say, "I feel the sentences mean this..."
Holding to such a narrow view, people come up with wild views and claim they are legitimate. Even on this site it happens with regularity. I can see how the prophets wondered why they even bothered to speak God's word. People just want their own thing, regardless of whether it's accurate.