Hard sayings in Hebrews

NewCreation435

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Hebrews 6:4-6 says this
4 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Who are these who have once been enlightened? Does that mean the same thing as saved?

What do you think fallen away means? Who qualifies for that?

Do you think this teaches that a person can lose their salvation? If they lose it then is it somehow based on works?
 

Imalive

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Yes a person can lose their salvation and of course because of works. Don't be mislead. Such do not inherit the Kingdom.
But I've seen a lot of ppl backslide, myself included and come back, so fallen away is maybe a bit more or they were baby christians or on drugs.
There would be a great falling away first and then the man of lawlessness is revealed. You see that now too. False grace preaching. Go fornicate, you're saved anyway. Once saved always saved.
 

NewCreation435

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Yes a person can lose their salvation and of course because of works. Don't be mislead. Such do not inherit the Kingdom.
But I've seen a lot of ppl backslide, myself included and come back, so fallen away is maybe a bit more or they were baby christians or on drugs.
There would be a great falling away first and then the man of lawlessness is revealed. You see that now too. False grace preaching. Go fornicate, you're saved anyway. Once saved always saved.

I heard a professor in seminary talk about what they call at the Baptist seminary preservation of the saints. Meaning that if you are truly saved then even if you fall away you will repent eventually. The problem is that we don't know just by looking at someone who is save and who isn't. But some people will feel guilt and then say to themselves "Well, I prayed to receive Jesus and therefore I am saved, so these doubts I am having much be the devil." When in reality the person might not be truly saved at all since a prayer by itself will not save you.
 

Josiah

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Hebrews 6:4-6 says this
4 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Who are these who have once been enlightened? Does that mean the same thing as saved?

What do you think fallen away means? Who qualifies for that?

Do you think this teaches that a person can lose their salvation? If they lose it then is it somehow based on works?


Good questions!
 

Josiah

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Here's my position on OSAS.....


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Revelation 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Galatians 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Revelation 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


To ME, the approach is NOT to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallible, sinful, human LOGIC and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to US. To ME, the approach is to accept both "sets" of scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them.

The approach, then, is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic. Not in accepting one "set" and explaining away the other in the light of it.




MY view...


- Josiah
 
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MoreCoffee

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Hebrews 6:4-6 says this
4 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Who are these who have once been enlightened? Does that mean the same thing as saved?

What do you think fallen away means? Who qualifies for that?

Do you think this teaches that a person can lose their salvation? If they lose it then is it somehow based on works?

The people in the passage are enlightened, share the Holy Spirit, know the goodness of God, and have tasted the heavenly gift so it looks like they are as saved as anybody on CH but then they fall away and cannot be brought back to repentance.

Barnes notes on the bible says

Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Barnes

If they shall fall away - literally, and having fallen away. There is no if in the Greek in this place - having fallen away. Dr. John P. Wilson. It is not an affirmation that any had actually fallen away, or that in fact they would do it; but the statement is, that on the supposition that they had fallen away, it would be impossible to renew them again. It is the same as supposing a case which in fact might never occur: as if we should say, had a man fallen down a precipice it would be impossible to save him, or had the child fallen into the stream he would certainly have been drowned. But though this literally means, having fallen away, yet the sense in the connection in which it stands is not improperly expressed by our common translation. The Syriac has given a version which is remarkable, not as a correct translation, but as showing what was the prevailing belief in the time in which it was made, (probably the first or second century), in regard to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. For it is impossible that they who have been baptised, and who have tasted the gift which is from heaven, and have received the spirit of holiness, and have tasted the good word of God, and the power of the coming age, should again sin, so that they should be renewed again to repentance, and again crucify the Son of God and put him to ignominy.

The word rendered fall away means properly to fall near by anyone; to fall in with or meet; and thus to fall aside from, to swerve or deviate from; and here means undoubtedly to apostatise from, and implies an entire renunciation of Christianity, or a going back to a state of Judaism, paganism, or sin. The Greek word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It is material to remark here that the apostle does not say that any true Christian ever had fallen away. He makes a statement of what would occur on the supposition that such a thing should happen - but a statement may be made of what would occur on the supposition that a certain thing should take place, and yet it be morally certain that the event never would happen. It would be easy to suppose what would happen if the ocean should overflow a continent, or if the sun should cease to rise, and still there be entire certainty that such an event never would occur.

To renew them again - Implying that they had been before renewed, or had been true Christians. The word again - πάλιν palin - supposes this; and this passage, therefore, confirms the considerations suggested above, showing that they were true Christians who were referred to. They had once repented, but it would be impossible to bring them to this state again. This declaration of course is to be read in connection with the first clause of Heb 6:4, It is impossible to renew again to repentance those who once were true Christians should they fall away. I know of no declaration more unambiguous than this. It is a positive declaration. It is not that it would be very difficult to do it; or that it would be impossible for man to do it, though it might be done by God; it is an unequivocal and absolute declaration that it would be utterly impracticable that it should be done by anyone, or by any means; and this, I have no doubt, is the meaning of the apostle. Should a Christian fall from grace, he must perish. he never could be saved. The reason of this the apostle immediately adds.

... [I had to cut off the remaining discussion because it is long, too long for a single post]​
 

MennoSota

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That’s what we are reading in Hebrews 6:4–8. This passage says that there is a spiritual condition that makes repentance and salvation impossible. And it says that this condition may look in many ways like salvation, but it isn’t. And it leads to destruction. And so this text is a warning to us not to assume that we are secure when our lives have some religious experiences but no growing fruit. And the reason for showing us this serious situation is so that we will flee from it, and move to solid ground and lasting joy.
~ John Piper - Desiring God
 

MennoSota

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Here's my position on OSAS.....


Gospel:


Romans 8:29-39, For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. "

Mark 13:22, "For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.

John 4:14, "but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 20:28, I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

1 Thess. 5:24, "The one who calls you is faithful and he will do it.

Hebrews 10:14, "because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Revelation 3:5, "I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels."



Law:

John 15:4-7, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you... If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Revelation 2:10, "Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Matthew 10:22, "He who stands firm to the end will be saved."

1 Timothy 4:1, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Luke 8:13, "They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away."

John 8:31, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really My disciples."

Luke 21:19, "By standing firm you will gain life."

Hebrews 8:9, "They did not remain faithful to My covenant, and I turned away from them"

Galatians 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace."

Col. 1:23, "If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel."

Hebrews 10:26, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

2 Peter 1:8-10, "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure."

2 Peter 3:17, "Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

Revelation 3:5, He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white.

Luke 12:8, "He who disowns Me before men will be disowned before the angels of God."


To ME, the approach is NOT to take all the Scriptures, subject them to our limited, fallible, sinful, human LOGIC and force them to "fit" and "make sense" to US. To ME, the approach is to accept both "sets" of scriptures at their face value and allow them to stand in all their truth and power just as God inspired them.

The approach, then, is in how to APPLY them rather than in how to force them to fit together according to our fallible, limited logic. Not in accepting one "set" and explaining away the other in the light of it.




MY view...


- Josiah
Josiah, your approach is remindful of a jellyfish that floats on the water and just drifts to whatever current pushes him along. With no spine to propel him the jellyfish is at the mercy of the tides.
I prefer to wrestle with issues and understand what is being said. But, that's just me.
 

MoreCoffee

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That’s what we are reading in Hebrews 6:4–8. This passage says that there is a spiritual condition that makes repentance and salvation impossible. And it says that this condition may look in many ways like salvation, but it isn’t. And it leads to destruction. And so this text is a warning to us not to assume that we are secure when our lives have some religious experiences but no growing fruit. And the reason for showing us this serious situation is so that we will flee from it, and move to solid ground and lasting joy.
~ John Piper - Desiring God

John Piper appears to support charismatic doctrines. I suppose that does not necessarily affect his position on apostasy but it might. I disagree with what you quoted from him. He isn't exegeting the passage he's asserting his view about it's alleged real meaning. Albert Barnes at least took the trouble to exegete the passage and so arrived at a more credible view than John Piper.
 

MennoSota

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John Piper appears to support charismatic doctrines. I suppose that does not necessarily affect his position on apostasy but it might. I disagree with what you quoted from him. He isn't exegeting the passage he's asserting his view about it's alleged real meaning. Albert Barnes at least took the trouble to exegete the passage and so arrived at a more credible view than John Piper.
LOL, quote some John Gill and get back to me...
 

MennoSota

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Just for you, MC.
Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
&c.] The Syriac and Ethiopic versions render it, "baptized"; and the word is thought to be so used in ( Hebrews 10:32 ) . And indeed baptism was called very early "illumination" by the ancients, as by Justin Martyr F9, and Clemens Alexandrinus F11, because only enlightened persons were the proper subjects of it; and the word once here used seems to confirm this sense, since baptism, when rightly administered, was not repeated; but then this sense depends upon an use of a word, which it is not certain did as yet obtain; nor does the apostle take notice of baptism in a parallel place, ( Hebrews 10:26 Hebrews 10:27 ) . This gave rise to, and seems to favour the error of Novatus, that those who fall into sin after baptism are to be cut off from the communion of the church, and never more to be restored unto it; contrary to the promises of God to returning backsliders, and contrary to facts, as well as to the directions of Christ, and his apostles, to receive and restore such persons; and such a notion tends to set aside the intercession of Christ for fallen believers, and to plunge them into despair: it is better therefore to retain the word "enlightened", in its proper sense, and to understand it of persons enlightened with Gospel knowledge; there are some who are savingly enlightened by the Spirit of God, to see the impurity of their hearts and actions, and their impotency to perform that which is good, the imperfection of their own righteousness to justify them, their lost state and condition by nature, and to see Christ and salvation by him, and their interest in it; and these being "once" enlightened, never become darkness, or ever so fall as to perish; for if God had a mind to destroy them, he would never have shown them these things, and therefore cannot be the persons designed here; unless we render the words, as the Syriac version does, "it is impossible"----(Nwjxy bwtd) , "that they should sin again"; so as to die spiritually, lose the grace of God, and stand in need of a new work upon them, which would be impossible to be done: but rather such are meant, who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin, but not the evil that is in sin; to see the good things which come by Christ, but not the goodness that is in Christ; so as to reform externally, but not to be sanctified internally; to have knowledge of the Gospel doctrinally, but not experimentally; yea, to have such light into it, as to be able to preach it to others, and yet be destitute of the grace of God: and have tasted of the heavenly gift;
either faith, or a justifying righteousness, or the pardon of sin, or eternal life; which are all spiritual and heavenly gifts of grace, and which true believers have real tastes of; and hypocrites please themselves with, having some speculative notions about them, and some desires after them, arising from a natural principle of self-love. Some think the Holy Ghost is intended; but rather Christ himself, the unspeakable gift of God's love, given from heaven, as the bread of life. Now there are some who have a saving spiritual taste of this gift; for though God's people, while unregenerate, have no such taste; their taste is vitiated by sin, and it is not changed; sin is the food they live upon, in which they take an imaginary pleasure, and disrelish every thing else; but when regenerated, their taste is changed, sin is rendered loathsome to them; and they have a real gust of spiritual things, and especially of Christ, and find a real delight and pleasure in feeding by faith upon him; whereby they live upon him, and are nourished up unto eternal life, and therefore cannot be the persons here spoken of: but there are others who taste, but dislike what they taste; have no true love to Christ, and faith in him; or have only a carnal taste of him, know him only after the flesh, or externally, not inwardly and experimentally; or they have only a superficial taste, such as is opposed to eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ, by faith, which is proper to true believers; the gust they have is but temporary, and arises from selfish principles. And were made partakers of the Holy Ghost;
not his person, nor his special grace; there are some who so partake of him, as to be united to him, in whom he becomes the principle of spiritual life, and motion: such have the fruits of the Spirit, and communion with him; they enjoy his personal presence and inhabitation in them; they have received him as a spirit of illumination and conviction, of regeneration and sanctification, as the spirit of faith, and as a comforter; and as a spirit of adoption, and the earnest and seal of future glory; but then such can never so fall away as to perish: a believer indeed may be without the sensible presence of the Spirit; the graces of the Spirit may be very low, as to their exercise; and they may not enjoy his comforts, gracious influences, and divine assistance; but the Spirit of God never is, in the above sense, in a castaway; where he takes up his dwelling, he never quits it; if such could perish, not only his own glory, but the glory of the Father, and of the Son, would be lost likewise: but by the Holy Ghost is sometimes meant the gifts of the Spirit, ordinary or extraordinary, ( 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 ) and so here; and men may be said to be partakers of the Holy Ghost, to whom he gives wisdom and prudence in things natural and civil; the knowledge of things divine and evangelical, in an external way; the power of working miracles, of prophesying, of speaking with tongues, and of the interpretation of tongues; for the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost seem chiefly designed, which some, in the first times of the Gospel, were partakers of, who had no share in special grace, ( Matthew 7:22 Matthew 7:23 ) ( 1 Corinthians 13:2 1 Corinthians 13:3 ) .
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/hebrews-6-4.html
 

MoreCoffee

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Just for you, MC.
...

It was Hebrews 6:6 that Albert Banes' comments were on. You can post John Gill on that verse if you like - especially the comments he writes about the phrase "to renew them again unto repentance,"
 
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Imalive

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NewCreation435

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Josiah, your approach is remindful of a jellyfish that floats on the water and just drifts to whatever current pushes him along. With no spine to propel him the jellyfish is at the mercy of the tides.
I prefer to wrestle with issues and understand what is being said. But, that's just me.

and I would prefer for you to stop insulting people and their views. Josiah is not just drifting along with whatever current comes along. He's acknowledging that there is a tension in the verses that is hard to understand.
 

user1234

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Oy! More examples of misunderstandings. I'm not saying by jsimms435 here ....

But ....
The 3 verses in the OP are often pulled out of context, isolated, and used to preach fear and works righteousness about as much as any passage in scripture, and so often lead to the type of uncertainty and judgement you see in post#2 and especially #5 for example.

Wow, #5, pick a position and stand...either He saved you or He didnt, have the courage to say so.

You have this conglomeration of piecemealed, out-of-context, partial verses strung together to try to prove one point, ... Then a whole nother :lol: set of them that only appear to contradict the first set. (I know Gods not the author of confusion, and doesnt contradict Himself, but there are other ppl who dont like His Word who often use scripture this way in order to try to prove He DOES contradict Himself. Maybe dont help them?).

The exact thing you warned us not to do in your summary, is EXACTLY the thing you DID! ...You strung together a bunch of unrelated misplaced verses in order to force them to fit a pretext, only in this case, you did it to try to prove 2 SIDES! :banghead:

And a couple of the verses, you actually put on the wrong side, or else they didnt belong on either!
I'm kind of stunned, bc I might expect this kind of scriptorture from RC teachers, but not from someone who left that denomination ... a former RC member!

It might take a bit to try to put each of those verses, especially the ones listed as law (?) (1Tim4:1 is law, i.e. ??) in context and explain. Perhaps I'll try...:dunno:

Meanwhile... Imalive , Hiya, Ima! Ima, Ima, Ima .... knows how much I loves her, (or should know? maybe not? idk) but this misunderstanding has to be dealt with, bc Im convinced there's been some very legalistic teaching along the way (and still may be, perhaps? I'm sad to say.)

Okay, I'll make this statement and see if anyone wants to challenge it.....
I guarantee...GUARANTEE...that everyone in heaven right now, is Once Saved Always Saved!
And everyone here right now that is truly saved is also osas, although you might not think so yet. But if someone says theyre saved, but not always, then for how long?

You say yes, a person can lose their salvation and of course bc of works. (?)
(First, I think the Q he asked you was 'Is SALVATION by works'.
I know you dont believe it is ....
I think you were answering that you can LOSE salvation bc of works.

But look at what you're saying. Paul addressed this in Galatians (and many places).
If you're saved by grace, how can you be lost by works?

To be continued...
 

Imalive

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Oy! More examples of misunderstandings. I'm not saying by jsimms435 here ....

But ....
The 3 verses in the OP are often pulled out of context, isolated, and used to preach fear and works righteousness about as much as any passage in scripture, and so often lead to the type of uncertainty and judgement you see in post#2 and especially #5 for example.

Wow, #5, pick a position and stand...either He saved you or He didnt, have the courage to say so.

You have this conglomeration of piecemealed, out-of-context, partial verses strung together to try to prove one point, ... Then a whole nother :lol: set of them that only appear to contradict the first set. (I know Gods not the author of confusion, and doesnt contradict Himself, but there are other ppl who dont like His Word who often use scripture this way in order to try to prove He DOES contradict Himself. Maybe dont help them?).

The exact thing you warned us not to do in your summary, is EXACTLY the thing you DID! ...You strung together a bunch of unrelated misplaced verses in order to force them to fit a pretext, only in this case, you did it to try to prove 2 SIDES! :banghead:

And a couple of the verses, you actually put on the wrong side, or else they didnt belong on either!
I'm kind of stunned, bc I might expect this kind of scriptorture from RC teachers, but not from someone who left that denomination ... a former RC member!

It might take a bit to try to put each of those verses, especially the ones listed as law (?) (1Tim4:1 is law, i.e. ??) in context and explain. Perhaps I'll try...:dunno:

Meanwhile... Imalive , Hiya, Ima! Ima, Ima, Ima .... knows how much I loves her, (or should know? maybe not? idk) but this misunderstanding has to be dealt with, bc Im convinced there's been some very legalistic teaching along the way (and still may be, perhaps? I'm sad to say.)

Okay, I'll make this statement and see if anyone wants to challenge it.....
I guarantee...GUARANTEE...that everyone in heaven right now, is Once Saved Always Saved!
And everyone here right now that is truly saved is also osas, although you might not think so yet. But if someone says theyre saved, but not always, then for how long?

You say yes, a person can lose their salvation and of course bc of works. (?)
(First, I think the Q he asked you was 'Is SALVATION by works'.
I know you dont believe it is ....
I think you were answering that you can LOSE salvation bc of works.

But look at what you're saying. Paul addressed this in Galatians (and many places).
If you're saved by grace, how can you be lost by works?

To be continued...

I can be lost by works if I turn His grace into lewdness. Now I am so smart to abide in Him and watch out and dont do that anymore but I did. I fell away. I invited Him in my heart again and repented of my sins. Come to Holland if you dont believe its possible. One after another born again saved christian not a fake one, the worries of life come, they want to marry and then you have the choice: stay single or fornicate. Some left church this way and joined a more liberal church that says its okay sex before or without marriage. Are they saved? We dont believe so, so we pray they come back. You cannot be at once perfect, not even Paul was, but he didn't go around cursing drinking and fornicating. Such were put out of the church. Nowadays there are churches and the pastor tells you its fine hear, go do what you want.
 
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MennoSota

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and I would prefer for you to stop insulting people and their views. Josiah is not just drifting along with whatever current comes along. He's acknowledging that there is a tension in the verses that is hard to understand.
There is tension, but that does not give license to floating between views because of the tension. We wrestle with the text and consider other passages that give a very clear light so that we might understand. We have the presupposition that God does not contradict himself and that all scripture is given by inspiration of God, thus we must work to understand how an initial, seeming, contradiction fits with what is very clearly taught. To throw down the blanket of "it's a mystery" seems lazy to me. It seems like a jellyfish approach to scripture.
 

MennoSota

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I can be lost by works if I turn His grace into lewdness. Now I am so smart to abide in Him and watch out and dont do that anymore but I did. I fell away. I invited Him in my heart again and repented of my sins. Come to Holland if you dont believe its possible. One after another born again saved christian not a fake one, the worries of life come, they want to marry and then you have the choice: stay single or fornicate. Some left church this way and joined a more liberal church that says its okay sex before or without marriage. Are they saved? We dont believe so, so we pray they come back. You cannot be at once perfect, not even Paul was, but he didn't go around cursing drinking and fornicating. Such were put out of the church. Nowadays there are churches and the pastor tells you its fine hear, go do what you want.

Why stick with sexual immorality? What if you are a glutton, you eat far more food than is good for you, should that willful sin condemn you to hell because you disobey God and drink a big soda rather than a small one?
What happens if you miss something in your watchfulness? Will that overpower the grace of God?
The answer, of course, is no. In Romans 6, Paul tells us that grace will abound. It will always abound, no matter how much you sin. But, Paul also asks the rhetorical question, "Shall we continue in sin so that grace will abound?" The answer is, of course, no.
So, for those whom God has elected to save, "there is therefore no condemned for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8).
Works, good or bad, cannot sway the grace of God. God is the giver of grace and He gives it as He wills, not as we work.
 

Imalive

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Why stick with sexual immorality? What if you are a glutton, you eat far more food than is good for you, should that willful sin condemn you to hell because you disobey God and drink a big soda rather than a small one?
What happens if you miss something in your watchfulness? Will that overpower the grace of God?
The answer, of course, is no. In Romans 6, Paul tells us that grace will abound. It will always abound, no matter how much you sin. But, Paul also asks the rhetorical question, "Shall we continue in sin so that grace will abound?" The answer is, of course, no.
So, for those whom God has elected to save, "there is therefore no condemned for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8).
Works, good or bad, cannot sway the grace of God. God is the giver of grace and He gives it as He wills, not as we work.

No condemnation if you crucify the flesh and get lead by the Spirit. A big soda is nonsense, but Paul said you shouldn't even eat w someone who is called a brother but is a drunkard or stingy. Remove those from your midst.

1 cor 5 after the guy living w his dads mom:

I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[
 
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MoreCoffee

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oops, wrong thread :)
 
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