Goodness is not enough.

[MoreCoffee]

There may be a few good people in history and possibly some are with us today. Goodness is - in essence - absence of sin. Jesus was good, absolutely so, men like Enoch were good but not absolutely so or at least so it seems to me. Job was good, Blessed Mary too, but neither absolutely so because God alone is absolutely good. Catholics believe that Blessed Mary was good in greater intensity than any other, Christ alone excepted, and many Protestants do not accept that view. That isn't so important, it is not where I am going with this thread. My purpose here is to ask a question and propose a point of view about it. The question is "Is goodness even absolute goodness, enough?" And the point of view I want to present is "Goodness without wisdom is not enough." I am not thinking about "enough to save you", that is a different issue. The kind of goodness I am thinking about is the sort that makes a person good and makes the world better because the goodness exists. And the kind of wisdom I am thinking about is the kind that the Wisdom literature of the old testament tells us about.

Do you think goodness is not enough?

 

[Arsenios]

Fear of the Lord may be enough...

Psalm 34:12ff

Come, ye children, hearken unto me:
I will teach you the fear of the LORD.
What man is he that desireth life,
and loveth many days,
that he may see good?
Keep thy tongue from evil,
and thy lips from speaking guile.
Depart from evil, and do good;
seek peace, and pursue it.
The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous,
and his ears are open unto their cry.
The face of the LORD is against them that do evil,
to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth,
and delivereth them out of all their troubles.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart;
and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
Many are the afflictions of the righteous:
but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
He keepeth all his bones:
not one of them is broken.
Evil shall slay the wicked:
and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.
The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants:
and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

 

[MennoSota]

There may be a few good people in history and possibly some are with us today. Goodness is - in essence - absence of sin. Jesus was good, absolutely so, men like Enoch were good but not absolutely so or at least so it seems to me. Job was good, Blessed Mary too, but neither absolutely so because God alone is absolutely good. Catholics believe that Blessed Mary was good in greater intensity than any other, Christ alone excepted, and many Protestants do not accept that view. That isn't so important, it is not where I am going with this thread. My purpose here is to ask a question and propose a point of view about it. The question is "Is goodness even absolute goodness, enough?" And the point of view I want to present is "Goodness without wisdom is not enough." I am not thinking about "enough to save you", that is a different issue. The kind of goodness I am thinking about is the sort that makes a person good and makes the world better because the goodness exists. And the kind of wisdom I am thinking about is the kind that the Wisdom literature of the old testament tells us about.

Do you think goodness is not enough?

Perhaps you forget scripture that tells us "there is non righteous, not even one."
It is a foolish thing to judge goodness against other humans. Even Mother Teresa was a wretched sinner, MC. This is why grace is so important to salvation.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Fear of the Lord may be enough...

Psalm 34:12ff

Come, ye children, hearken unto me:
I will teach you the fear of the LORD.
What man is he that desireth life,
and loveth many days,
that he may see good?
Keep thy tongue from evil,
and thy lips from speaking guile.
Depart from evil, and do good;
seek peace, and pursue it.
The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous,
and his ears are open unto their cry.
The face of the LORD is against them that do evil,
to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.
The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth,
and delivereth them out of all their troubles.
The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart;
and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
Many are the afflictions of the righteous:
but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.
He keepeth all his bones:
not one of them is broken.
Evil shall slay the wicked:
and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate.
The LORD redeemeth the soul of his servants:
and none of them that trust in him shall be desolate.

Do you think that the fear of the LORD is the same thing as wisdom?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Perhaps you forget scripture that tells us "there is non righteous, not even one."

But, brother Mennosota, was the Lord Jesus Christ a righteous one?

It is a foolish thing to judge goodness against other humans. Even Mother Teresa was a wretched sinner, MC. This is why grace is so important to salvation.

Humans can judge no other way; how would one know if a dolphin is good or a virus?

 

[MennoSota]

But, brother Mennosota, was the Lord Jesus Christ a righteous one?



Humans can judge no other way; how would one know if a dolphin is good or a virus?

God is righteous, MC, or do you deny the deity of Jesus?

In this thread, we can judge that there is no one who is good.
I am always amazed at the number of man-centered people who claim to be Christian.

 

[MoreCoffee]

God is righteous, MC, or do you deny the deity of Jesus?

In this thread, we can judge that there is no one who is good.
I am always amazed at the number of man-centered people who claim to be Christian.

The Lord Jesus Christ is a man. He always will be. It is his gift to humanity.

 

[MennoSota]

The Lord Jesus Christ is a man. He always will be. It is his gift to humanity.

So you deny his deity? Yes or no.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So you deny his deity? Yes or no.

Jesus is the LORD, how can one deny that he is God when he is the LORD? The idea is a nonsense.

 

[MennoSota]

Jesus is the LORD, how can one deny that he is God when he is the LORD? The idea is a nonsense.

So you believe Jesus is God
Is God unrighteous?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So you believe Jesus is God
Is God unrighteous?

A man came to Jesus and after calling him "good teacher" Jesus said these things:

And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him,

Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, even God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother. And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth. And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.​

But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions. And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples,

How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, Then who can be saved? Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God.​

Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. Jesus said,

Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or mother, or father, or children, or lands, for my sake, and for the gospel’s sake, but he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.​

(Mark 10:17-31)​

Jesus, the LORD, is good and not merely righteous but since being absolutely good is more than being righteous it certainly includes righteousness so Jesus, the man, is righteous. Jesus is a man is he not, you believe that do you not, brother Mennosota?

For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, (I Timothy 2:5)​

 

[MennoSota]

A man came to Jesus and after calling him "good teacher" Jesus said these things:

And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him,

Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, even God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother. And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth. And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.​

But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions. And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples,

How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, Then who can be saved? Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God.​

Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. Jesus said,

Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or mother, or father, or children, or lands, for my sake, and for the gospel’s sake, but he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.​

(Mark 10:17-31)​

Jesus, the LORD, is good and not merely righteous but since being absolutely good is more than being righteous it certainly includes righteousness so Jesus, the man, is righteous. Jesus is a man is he hot, you believe that do you not, brother Mennosota?

For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, (I Timothy 2:5)​

Jesus is fully God and fully man. Jesus is therefore fully righteous and not corrupt like all of us.
Jesus tells us in the passage that none is good except God. Jesus is declaring his deity.
Thanks for the scripture, MC. You're at your best when you stick with God's word rather than Rome's word.

 

[NewCreation435]

Didn't Jesus tell the rich man that only God was good?

We can certainly make the world a better place with our deeds, but evil still seems to outweigh good by a large margin.

 

[MoreCoffee]

A man came to Jesus and after calling him "good teacher" Jesus said these things:

And as he was going forth into the way, there ran one to him, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him,

Why callest thou me good? none is good save one, even God. Thou knowest the commandments, Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor thy father and mother. And he said unto him, Teacher, all these things have I observed from my youth. And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.​

But his countenance fell at the saying, and he went away sorrowful: for he was one that had great possessions. And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples,

How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished exceedingly, saying unto him, Then who can be saved? Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for all things are possible with God.​

Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. Jesus said,

Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or mother, or father, or children, or lands, for my sake, and for the gospel’s sake, but he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.​

(Mark 10:17-31)​

Jesus, the LORD, is good and not merely righteous but since being absolutely good is more than being righteous it certainly includes righteousness so Jesus, the man, is righteous. Jesus is a man is he hot, you believe that do you not, brother Mennosota?

For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, (I Timothy 2:5)​

Didn't Jesus tell the rich man that only God was good?

We can certainly make the world a better place with our deeds, but evil still seems to outweigh good by a large margin.

A man did call Jesus good and Jesus told the man that God alone is good. See the first quote above.

The question asked in this thread is Do you think goodness is not enough? the supposition being that goodness and wisdom are needed and that when together they are enough - but the thread is not asking if goodness is enough for salvation nor is it proposing that goodness with wisdom is enough for salvation.

 

[NewCreation435]

A man did call Jesus good and Jesus told the man that God alone is good. See the first quote above.

The question asked in this thread is Do you think goodness is not enough? the supposition being that goodness and wisdom are needed and that when together they are enough - but the thread is not asking if goodness is enough for salvation nor is it proposing that goodness with wisdom is enough for salvation.

I think I did answer you in my first post. I said even though some people are good, evil still seems to outweigh good. But, perhaps as a mental health counselor my viewpoint is warped by all the negative stuff I hear and people crying in my office every week

 

[Albion]

Well, when Jesus said that only God is good, he was certainly not disavowing his own nature. It was a rhetorical comment that was meant to cause the rich man to rethink his question and to allow Jesus to make his own point.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, when Jesus said that only God is good, he was certainly not disavowing his own nature. It was a rhetorical comment that was meant to cause the rich man to rethink his question and to allow Jesus to make his own point.

Possibly.

But this thread is not about absolute goodness. That is explained in the first post.

There may be a few good people in history and possibly some are with us today. Goodness is - in essence - absence of sin. Jesus was good, absolutely so, men like Enoch were good but not absolutely so or at least so it seems to me. Job was good, Blessed Mary too, but neither absolutely so because God alone is absolutely good. Catholics believe that Blessed Mary was good in greater intensity than any other, Christ alone excepted, and many Protestants do not accept that view. That isn't so important, it is not where I am going with this thread. My purpose here is to ask a question and propose a point of view about it. The question is "Is goodness even absolute goodness, enough?" And the point of view I want to present is "Goodness without wisdom is not enough." I am not thinking about "enough to save you", that is a different issue. The kind of goodness I am thinking about is the sort that makes a person good and makes the world better because the goodness exists. And the kind of wisdom I am thinking about is the kind that the Wisdom literature of the old testament tells us about.

Do you think goodness is not enough?

 

[Arsenios]

I said even though some people are good, evil still seems to outweigh good.
But, perhaps as a mental health counselor my viewpoint is warped
by all the negative stuff I hear
and people crying in my office every week

Cops have a simillarly warped view of humanity...

A justifiable view, I might add...

But warped nonetheless...

I think you may agree with me that in the mental health field,
the sickest are among those at the top of the field, yes?

And that the sick are working with the sicker...

And sometimes not...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Innocent goodness is a wonder to behold and tears at the heart of any who see it knowing their own wickedness yet innocent goodness by itself never stopped the wicked killing the innocent. More is needed for that that happen. After the killing some who were involved may feel guilt and with God's grace move to repentance. Such was the case for saint Paul. One hopes it was the case for many who shouted "crucify him" about Jesus. But the Lord's innocent goodness was wedded to wisdom and his death at the hands of wicked men was not accidental, it was planned from before the foundation of the world by God. But many good people have been martyred and many innocents too yet Christ alone was able to turn the martyrdom into grace for the wicked. Still this goodness of Christ is of a different order and a different kind than is the innocence of infants and the goodness of men. Sorry, I am rambling a little now.

 

[atpollard]

The kind of goodness I am thinking about is the sort that makes a person good and makes the world better because the goodness exists. And the kind of wisdom I am thinking about is the kind that the Wisdom literature of the old testament tells us about.

Do you think goodness is not enough?

Without a doubt, goodness alone (without wisdom) is not enough to make the world a better place. Science represents the quest for ‘goodness’ (the betterment of mankind) independent of any divine moral guidance and the result is a history full of accidental mysery caused by unintended consequences. Is anyone familiar with Thalidomide babies?

Fear of the Lord may be enough...

Psalm 34:12ff
Come, ye children, hearken unto me:
I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

I suspect that even “fear of the Lord” (and the wisdom that comes from it) would not be enough without “goodness” added to it. I am thinking of the desperate cries of a man who has the wisdom to know WHAT to do, but is powerless to act on what he knows:

[Romans 7:19-25 NASB] 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.