God's apology to mankind

tango

... and you shall live ...
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Even if there is another concept of morality, if God presents said concept of morality to me and I disagree with it, I'd still be forced to follow a system of morality that I dislike in order to avoid being tortured for eternity. Which is, in turn, morally wrong. "Obey my system of morality or suffer" is morally wrong. That is a dictator mentality.

The problem here is that you're constantly coming at this from a perspective of "this clashes with my morality, therefore it is wrong, therefore God is wrong".

If I disagree with you it naturally follows that I think you are wrong. But while I am considering why I think you are wrong I need to consider the possibility that you are right and I am wrong. Maybe both of us are wrong and something totally different is right. To observe that I can't get my head around something and therefore conclude that it must be wrong doesn't really work, whatever the "something" is.

You're also bringing torture into the process. Torture is an active suffering - the Bible typically uses words more like "torment". If you're given the chance to attend a party - there are free tickets being handed out - but you choose not to, then your sense of missing out as you stand outside the party hearing everyone else having a great time isn't torture, it's a sense of missing out. And that consequence is entirely on you because you chose not to take a free ticket.

If God is handing out tickets to heaven and you choose not to take one because you dislike whatever concept of God you have, you don't get to blame God if he grants your wish and you sit outside for all eternity. That regret that you could have been inside had you made a different choice is entirely of your own making.

And, to answer your last question, yes, it is God's fault. He's omnipotent. He could have simply made a world in which impact does not cause injury or pain. He could have made a world in which bricks (and all hard objects) temporarily turn soft when a living lifeform hits them.

He could have done all sorts of things. Of course nobody forced me to bang my head on the wall - I did that freely so the consequences of my choice are entirely on me. Unless you want God to take away my free will, which would be odd given how you complained earlier in this very post about a dictator mentality.
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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Unless you want God to take away my free will
I don't believe that we have free will. We might be able to do what we want (to some extent), but we cannot choose what we want. The fact that we want to be saved from hell is not a choice. We can't will ourselves to not want to be saved from hell. We can't will ourselves to like suffering. Therefore, we don't have free will. We only have limited will.

If I disagree with you it naturally follows that I think you are wrong. But while I am considering why I think you are wrong I need to consider the possibility that you are right and I am wrong. Maybe both of us are wrong and something totally different is right. To observe that I can't get my head around something and therefore conclude that it must be wrong doesn't really work, whatever the "something" is.
The problem is that God made the system in such a way that it is impossible for anyone to assess anything from an outside perspective. We are locked inside our consciousness and there is no means of judging God's system of morality other than by our own. There's no third being who can share their thoughts.

To observe that I can't get my head around something and therefore conclude that it must be wrong is perfectly reasonable if said something causes you suffering. We have an innate displeasure of suffering, we are born with it, the first thing newborns do is cry due to experiencing suffering (pain, discomfort etc.). We know that this is intrinsically wrong. If we had the medical advancements to minimize or eliminate all suffering during deliveries, we would.

People sometimes give the example of medical procedures which hurt, yet are meant to heal (like parents who willingly take their children to get shots, surgeries etc. in order to heal them), but those examples are meaningless when we consider that medical research has constantly worked to diminish the suffering caused by these procedures as much as possible. We can't completely eliminate it yet, but we acknowledge that accepting said suffering is wrong and that said suffering should not be there. That's why they constantly work on developing all sort of stronger painkillers with fewer side effects, numbing gels for when children get injections etc. Back in the 1800, taking your child to have surgery would have been considered a reasonable and loving thing to do as a parent, even though back then surgeries were brutal due to the limited number of pain-numbing medication and lack of general anesthesia. If we could time-travel back to 1800, take a family with a child sick of tuberculosis, bring him to a present-day hospital, have the doctors explain to them that we have the cure for it and the child could get well in a matter of weeks, but then refuse to offer them the treatment and sent them back in time to their era, surely, that family would have considered us to be evil monsters. And rightfully so. We could have helped them, we could have saved them, we could have spared them from physical suffering, but we chose not to. That is what God does. He has the powers to eradicate the pain. He can will all disabilities out of existence with a snap of His fingers, but chooses not to.

You're also bringing torture into the process. Torture is an active suffering - the Bible typically uses words more like "torment". If you're given the chance to attend a party - there are free tickets being handed out - but you choose not to, then your sense of missing out as you stand outside the party hearing everyone else having a great time isn't torture, it's a sense of missing out. And that consequence is entirely on you because you chose not to take a free ticket.
No, it's not entirely on me. Your comparison leaves a few elements out of the picture:
- there are people who hand out "free tickets" to the party, but there are also numerous people saying that this party is not real, and that they have tickets to a real party, and you end up getting 5 tickets to five different parties, all of them claiming to be the real party, but the parties are held in a place that cannot be found on any map and no one knows how to get to that location
- the party is held by your abusive father, who all throughout your life allowed you to get bullied, beaten up by neighbors, never took you to the hospital when you were ill, was pretty much absent from your life, and always blamed you or someone else for his lack of involvement in your life

If God is handing out tickets to heaven and you choose not to take one because you dislike whatever concept of God you have, you don't get to blame God if he grants your wish and you sit outside for all eternity. That regret that you could have been inside had you made a different choice is entirely of your own making.

Yes, I do get to blame God because He only created two options: in and out of Heaven. He didn't give me the ability to create my own world according to my own principles, or to remove myself from existence at will.

Also, dislike for someone is most of the time based on experience. While I admit that is is possible to willingly choose to dislike someone who has been kind to you, most people only dislike those who have been mean to them. No one wakes up one morning, looks at their loving and helpful father who is always nice to them and says, "hey, I think I'd like to dislike my dad for no reason". No one does that. But when your father makes your life a nightmare...
 

Albion

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Even if there is another concept of morality, if God presents said concept of morality to me and I disagree with it, I'd still be forced to follow a system of morality that I dislike in order to avoid being tortured for eternity.
True enough.

Which is, in turn, morally wrong. "Obey my system of morality or suffer" is morally wrong. That is a dictator mentality.
Well, now you're just substituting your own sense of what's moral (a sense that was derived from the thinking of other humans) for that of the Creator God.

What then is the argument for replacing a superior standard with an inferior one?

And, to answer your last question, yes, it is God's fault. He's omnipotent. He could have simply made a world in which impact does not cause injury or pain.
God, whom you admit is omnipotent, DID create a world which was without injury or pain. It was Man who threw it away.

You're upset because, despite all of that, this God nevertheless offered his fallen and disobedient creation another chance at eternal fulfillment and happiness. But in the end, you still can refuse the opportunity and then it will be you, not God, with whom the fault lies.
 

Lucian Hodoboc

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What then is the argument for replacing a superior standard with an inferior one?
What then is the argument that one standard is superior to another, if it is impossible for it to be an objective authority to decide that?

God, whom you admit is omnipotent, DID create a world which was without injury or pain. It was Man who threw it away.

You're upset because, despite all of that, this God nevertheless offered his fallen and disobedient creation another chance at eternal fulfillment and happiness. But in the end, you still can refuse the opportunity and then it will be you, not God, with whom the fault lies.
Who is "Man" and why am I related to him against my will?

I'm upset because God created a system in which the actions of one creature impact other creatures against their will and because creatures are forced to partake in this system under the threat of eternal torture.
 
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Odë:hgöd

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I was 26 before hearing of Jesus' return. At first I sort of panicked because I
had a lot to answer for. Then I became indignant because I don't like to be
made afraid.
_
 

tango

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(Broken in two because of a 10,000 character post limit)

I don't believe that we have free will. We might be able to do what we want (to some extent), but we cannot choose what we want. The fact that we want to be saved from hell is not a choice. We can't will ourselves to not want to be saved from hell. We can't will ourselves to like suffering. Therefore, we don't have free will. We only have limited will.

We can choose not to believe in hell at all, in which case no desire to be saved from it can possibly exist. If you talk to atheists the chances are you'll find they have no fear of hell because nobody fears things unless they first accept that those things exist.

If we have limited free will we still have free will. I'm talking about free will in the sense we make choices, rather than free will meaning we can choose anything we could imagine. I can't choose to defy the laws of gravity or space/time however convenient that ability might be for me, but I can choose whether to be nice to someone, what to eat for dinner, whether to bless or curse God, and so on.

The problem is that God made the system in such a way that it is impossible for anyone to assess anything from an outside perspective. We are locked inside our consciousness and there is no means of judging God's system of morality other than by our own. There's no third being who can share their thoughts.

We can judge things by whatever standard we want but that doesn't mean our standard is right. As I said before, if I disagree with you the logical implication is that I think you are wrong. Even while thinking you are wrong I would be foolish if I didn't at least consider the possibility that you are right and I am wrong. So to argue "God's morality doesn't match mine, therefore God is wrong" is foolish. Maybe God can see something I can't see. Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe the thing that makes no sense to me here and now will make more sense later.

To observe that I can't get my head around something and therefore conclude that it must be wrong is perfectly reasonable if said something causes you suffering. We have an innate displeasure of suffering, we are born with it, the first thing newborns do is cry due to experiencing suffering (pain, discomfort etc.). We know that this is intrinsically wrong. If we had the medical advancements to minimize or eliminate all suffering during deliveries, we would.

We may believe that this is intrinsically wrong but we're back to the question of whether we know everything there is to know. Here we're right back to the same issue that keeps coming up about suffering, namely the assumption that if we can't understand it there can be no purpose to it. Maybe there is a purpose to it that we don't yet understand.

People sometimes give the example of medical procedures which hurt, yet are meant to heal (like parents who willingly take their children to get shots, surgeries etc. in order to heal them), but those examples are meaningless when we consider that medical research has constantly worked to diminish the suffering caused by these procedures as much as possible. We can't completely eliminate it yet, but we acknowledge that accepting said suffering is wrong and that said suffering should not be there. That's why they constantly work on developing all sort of stronger painkillers with fewer side effects, numbing gels for when children get injections etc. Back in the 1800, taking your child to have surgery would have been considered a reasonable and loving thing to do as a parent, even though back then surgeries were brutal due to the limited number of pain-numbing medication and lack of general anesthesia. If we could time-travel back to 1800, take a family with a child sick of tuberculosis, bring him to a present-day hospital, have the doctors explain to them that we have the cure for it and the child could get well in a matter of weeks, but then refuse to offer them the treatment and sent them back in time to their era, surely, that family would have considered us to be evil monsters. And rightfully so. We could have helped them, we could have saved them, we could have spared them from physical suffering, but we chose not to. That is what God does. He has the powers to eradicate the pain. He can will all disabilities out of existence with a snap of His fingers, but chooses not to.

So we're back to "God doesn't do what I think God should do, therefore God is wrong"? This argument negates any concept of who and what God is, and puts you on God's throne.

If you want to argue that God doesn't exist, or the being we call God is not actually much of a god because you disagree with his ways then go right on ahead but to claim that God must be wrong because you disapprove of his ways inherently demotes God to be subservient to you.

No, it's not entirely on me. Your comparison leaves a few elements out of the picture:
- there are people who hand out "free tickets" to the party, but there are also numerous people saying that this party is not real, and that they have tickets to a real party, and you end up getting 5 tickets to five different parties, all of them claiming to be the real party, but the parties are held in a place that cannot be found on any map and no one knows how to get to that location
- the party is held by your abusive father, who all throughout your life allowed you to get bullied, beaten up by neighbors, never took you to the hospital when you were ill, was pretty much absent from your life, and always blamed you or someone else for his lack of involvement in your life

If Person A is handing out tickets to a party, Person B is handing out tickets to a different party across town, and Person C says there are no parties, you get to decide who to believe. You make that choice, and you take responsibility for that choice. It's that whole issue of free will again.

If you decide you don't want to attend the party anyway, for whatever reason you choose, you get to make that decision. You don't get to decide not to attend and then complain when you're outside because you chose not to attend. You certainly don't get to blame the host for your absence when you chose not to attend.

It's a far more trivial situation but the concept is the same. I'm sure you know that a few days ago there was a total solar eclipse that passed across North America. The path of totality passed within a few hours drive of where I live. I considered driving to see the eclipse but the forecast was for lots of cloud, so I made the decision to stay home and observe 95% totality or so. A friend who lives half a mile from me decided to get up early and drive to the path of totality. I got to see a crescent sun on the few occasions it peeked out from the clouds. My friend got to see the total eclipse in all its glory, and described it as "the coolest thing I've ever seen". Who should I blame for me not seeing the total eclipse? I can point to all sorts of whys and wherefores but the simple reality is that I chose not to make the trip. With hindsight I wish I had driven out but I don't get to blame anyone else for the fact I didn't see the total eclipse, the decision was mine and mine alone.
 

tango

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Yes, I do get to blame God because He only created two options: in and out of Heaven. He didn't give me the ability to create my own world according to my own principles, or to remove myself from existence at will.

So you're blaming God because you aren't God?

Also, dislike for someone is most of the time based on experience. While I admit that is is possible to willingly choose to dislike someone who has been kind to you, most people only dislike those who have been mean to them. No one wakes up one morning, looks at their loving and helpful father who is always nice to them and says, "hey, I think I'd like to dislike my dad for no reason". No one does that. But when your father makes your life a nightmare...

I don't always understand why people have to deal with the things they have to deal with. I don't always understand why God does things, or allows things, that don't make any sense to me. But that doesn't mean there is no reason for something.

In human terms our childhood is relatively short. We go from being utterly helpless to toddling around falling over a lot to getting involved in more things to being able to understand and be trusted with more things, in the course of a few years. As a 4-year-old it's hard to understand why Daddy won't let you use the big kitchen knife - you promised you'd be careful with it so what more could he possibly want? Is he just trying to spoil all your fun? He gets to use it after all, as often as he wants. When you're a bit older you can understand why he wouldn't let you use it just a few short years ago. In time you may become a father yourself and you'll impose your own rules on your children, and in all probability you won't let your 4-year-old use the big kitchen knife either. They don't understand what happens if they slip with it but you do.

As a child I didn't want to eat broccoli. I didn't want to eat string beans, or pretty much anything that was good for me. I wanted to eat cake and ice cream and things like that. Would you believe my parents forced me to eat vegetables and rationed the amount of cake and ice cream I was allowed to eat? Why would they do that if they cared about me and my happiness? Didn't they know how much I hated eating vegetables and how much I loved eating cake and ice cream? Of course they did, but they also knew that eating garbage all the time would result in me growing up unhealthy. As a child I couldn't see the bigger picture, there's not a lot of point explaining the finer points of nutrition to a small child, so all they could do was demand I ate my greens and ration the junk. I couldn't understand it then but now I do.

In eternal terms our human life is like the briefest flash of light. Paul wrote that now we see "as through a glass darkly" - we don't get to understand it all now. The question isn't why we aren't given all knowledge now, the question is whether we are willing to trust that a reason for something exists even if we don't understand it right now.

If you choose not to trust that's ultimately your choice. But to demand that God follows your commands is to try and take God's throne for yourself. If your objection boils down to "I'm not God and it's not fair" I'd ask just what you expect to happen from here. I'm not God either and there are many things I don't understand. Maybe in time I will, maybe some things will remain a mystery even as I draw my final breath.
 

prism

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We did not get ourselves into this mess. We didn't ask to be created, nor did we consent to existing by God's rules. They were imposed unto us and we had no say in it. I know I didn't. I'm pretty sure that Adam and Eve didn't either. But even if they did, the fact that we are treated as a monolith, as a "hive mind", is unacceptable and wrong. The very system, in which the actions of a creature affect other creatures against their will, is flawed. There is no excuse for me (or anyone else, for that matter) having to suffer because an ancestor (or any other creature) made mistakes.
Ok, so let us be our own god, choosing where and when and under what conditions we are to be born. Wait, if we were gods, we would have no need of being created, then we could do whatever we wanted! But alas! We can't :(
 

Odë:hgöd

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FAQ: How was it legitimate for Adam's posterity to be given the death penalty for
his offense when so many passages in the Bible are opposed to passing a father's
mistakes on to his progeny? For example: Ezek 18:1–4, Ezek 18:18–20, 2Kngs
14:6, Deut 24:16, 2Chron 25:4, and Jer 31:29–30.


REPLY: God's rules and regulations are not retroactive, viz: He doesn't apply later
executive orders to earlier incidents. (Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13 and Gal 3:17)
_
 
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Lees

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FAQ: How was it legitimate for Adam's posterity to be given the death penalty for
his offense when so many passages in the Bible are opposed to passing a father's
mistakes on to his progeny? For example: Ezek 18:1–4, Ezek 18:18–20, 2Kngs
14:6, Deut 24:16, 2Chron 25:4, and Jer 31:29–30.


REPLY: God's rules and regulations are not retroactive, viz: He doesn't apply later
executive orders to earlier incidents. (Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom 5:13 and Gal 3:17)
_

With Adam, God is dealing with Sin as opposed to sins. (Rom. 5:12) "...by one man sin entered the world and death by sin....." Adam brought the disease of Sin into the world. All others commit personal sins because they have been infected with the disease of Sin.

Death enters the human race by one, Adam. So that life can enter by One, Jesus Christ. (Rom. 5:18-19)

I dare say no one complains about having their sins paid for by One, Jesus Christ. They only complain about being made a sinner by one, Adam.

Lees
 

Odë:hgöd

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Seeing as how God is perpetual, all powerful, and answers to no one how He goes
about conducting His affairs; then what He says goes. Nobody can stop Him
from making and/or enforcing whatever rules He wishes because God's free will
trumps everybody else's free will.

Whether God's ways and means are loving, moral, just, and/or right and wise
doesn't matter. It's as futile to criticize lightning for being so bright, thunder for
being so loud, lava for being so hot, and typhoons for blowing so hard as it is to
find fault with God's processes and procedures because no matter how much people
complain about thunder, lightning, lava, and typhoons; there is nothing they can do
to stop those forces of nature from going about their business.

Acts 4:24 . .They lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said: Lord,
thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them
is.

The Greek word translated "Lord" in that passage is despotes (des-pot'-ace) from
which we get our English word despot; defined by Webster's as a ruler with
absolute power and authority.

”Why do the nations rage? Why do the people waste their time with futile plans?
The kings of the earth prepare for battle; the rulers plot together against Yahweh
and against His anointed one. Let us break their chains-- they cry --and free
ourselves from this slavery. But the one who rules in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs
at them." (Ps 2:1-4)
_
 
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