Gift of Tongues

[Imalive]

Before the understanding of a triune God?
God changes not.
Also no understanding of "Trinity" was ever an issue until after 300 years after the death of Christ which caused much bloodshed and persecution of those who didnt agree. In other words there was never any heresy charges against nonTrinitarian until after it was introduced in the 3rd century, I think its a little messed up.
Nothing good came out of calling God a trinity, the Church ordered it by law that if none follow they would be killed!

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LOL oh then it must be good. They had a perfect understanding of who God is, cause we will see Him as He is when we're one like Jesus and the Father are one.
Persecuting someone over the Unity of God, that is just too crazy for words.

 

[Andrew]

Let me clarify before I proceed that I am not attacking the meek in the Catholic faith I believe God reaches all who proclaim that his Son Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior. Just as Mary herself calls him her Savior, and I wonder why she would need one if she is "sinless". No this is a wake up call to break some of these heresies and false man made doctrines that were brought into the church during great apostasy. The Pope of rome ladies and gentlemen is not the way to salvation.
"The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ. The Pope has the authority and often exercised it, to dispense with the command of Christ."*(Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop. (The pope can modify divine law) Ferraris' Ecclesiastical Dictionary)

"The authority of the Church could therefore not be bound to the authority of the Scriptures, because the church had changed the Sabbath into Sunday, not by command of Christ, but by it's own authority."*(Canon and Tradition. page 263)

"The doctrines of the Catholic Church are entirely independent of Holy Scripture."(Familiar Explanation of Catholic Doctrine. Rev. M Muller, page 151)

"The mystery of the Most Holy Trinity is the central mystery of Christian faith and life. It is the mystery of God in himself. It is therefore the source of all the other mysteries of faith, the light that enlightens them. It is the most fundamental and essential teaching in the 'hierarchy of the truths of faith'. The whole history of salvation is identical with the history of the way and the means by which the one true God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, reveals himself to men."*(Catholic Catechism, No.

The trinity doctrine denies the Bible truth concerning our one true God, the Father and denies that Jesus Christ is the only begotten literal Son of God. The trinity teaches that the Holy Spirit is a separate being from the Father and Son, whereas the Bible teaches us that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit OF God and OF Christ. It is their own Spirit.

1 Corinthians 8:6 ...'But to us there is but*one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; AND one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.'

1 John 1:3 ...'Truly our fellowship is with*the Father, and with his Son*Jesus Christ.'

John 17:3 ...'And this is eternal life, that they might know thee*the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.'

Romans 8:9 ...'But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the*Spirit of God*dwell in you. Now if any man have not the*Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.'

Galatians 4:6 ...'And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the*Spirit of his Soninto your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.'

 

[MennoSota]

The Son is not the Father, but why is He called eternal Father in Isaiah 9:6?

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

One being, three equal persons making up that one being. All three persons are one being we know as God.

 

[MennoSota]

Exactly, Jesus is his image and the Spirit is his movements

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No

 

[MennoSota]

In Genesis 1:26 we the one being called God being expressed as a plural, yet one when the word Elohim is used. "God said, let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness..."

The Trinity (one being with three persons making up the one being) is expressed throughout the entire Bible, even though the exact word is not used.

Of course that has nothing to do with the gift of tongues.

 

[Andrew]

No

The image.
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible .... all things were created through him and for him."*(Colossians 1:15-16)

One Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Movement.
Strongs #
7307. Ruach (Holy Spirit) the original meaning of it includes Mind, Motive, Energy, Wind, Experience, Breath..

Is God fire too? Many descriptions of God in manifestations, remember the burning bush?
For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:29

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Matthew 3:11

 

[MennoSota]

The image.
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible .... all things were created through him and for him."*(Colossians 1:15-16)

One Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Movement.
Strongs #
7307. Ruach (Holy Spirit) the original meaning of it includes Mind, Motive, Energy, Wind, Experience, Breath..

Is God fire too? Many descriptions of God in manifestations, remember the burning bush?
For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:29

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Matthew 3:11

The term "image of the invisible God" is referring to God coming into his creation as man. What was unseen is now seen.

You are attempting to reduce the person of the Son and the person of the Spirit into a manifestation of God, rather than each being the equal persons of God.

 

[Andrew]

The term "image of the invisible God" is referring to God coming into his creation as man. What was unseen is now seen.

You are attempting to reduce the person of the Son and the person of the Spirit into a manifestation of God, rather than each being the equal persons of God.

Do you always divide God when you refer to him? Do you say "Holy Trinity" or "In the name of..Father.. Son.... Holy Ghost"?
Did I not provide you with verses that state over and over one true God the One Spirit etc? Is the word trinity used even once in the bible? Or "three persons of God"?
Is the body of Christ not of One mind and of One Spirit?

Just answers this one at least. Is God a spirit, spirits or spirit?

 

[MennoSota]

Do you always divide God when you refer to him? Do you say "Holy Trinity" or "In the name of..Father.. Son.... Holy Ghost"?
Did I not provide you with verses that state over and over one true God the One Spirit etc? Is the word trinity used even once in the bible? Or "three persons of God"?
Is the body of Christ not of One mind and of One Spirit?

Just answers this one at least. Is God a spirit, spirits or spirit?

I have already addressed this and shown how God is expressed in Genesis 1:26.
What you are presenting is an unorthodox heresy within intrabiblical cults.

 

[Albion]

The questions raised there HAVE been answered, Menno, either by you and by me or, as I recall, by other people. Several times over.

But unfortunately for this "discussion,"none of that seems to have made the slightest impression.

 

[Andrew]

I have already addressed this and shown how God is expressed in Genesis 1:26.
What you are presenting is an unorthodox heresy within intrabiblical cults.

I am convinced now that because Jesus and God are the same monotheistic God of Abraham (God is a title by the way not his name) that his heavenly court of Angels be considered as having part of his human creation as they are his messengers in his devout service before the creation of Adam.
The answer emerges from the Torah and its Prophets. If you search the Hebrew Bible you will find that when the Almighty speaks of “us” or “our,” He is addressing His ministering angels. In fact, only two chapters later, God continues to use the pronoun “us” as He speaks with His angels. At the end of the third chapter of Genesis the Almighty relates to His angels that Adam and his wife have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and must therefore be prevented from eating from the Tree of Life as well; for if man would gain access to the Tree of Life he will “become like one of us.” The Creator then instructs his burning angels, known as Cherubim, to stand at the entrance to the gate of the Garden of Eden, waving a flaming sword to prevent man from entering the Garden and eating from the Tree of Life. Let’s examine this famed text:

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” – therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

(Genesis 3:22-24)

This use of the majestic plural in Genesis 3:22-24 is what contributed the NIV Study Bible’s annotation on Genesis 1:26 (above). At the end of its comment on this verse, the NIV Study Bible provides a number of biblical sources from the Jewish Scriptures to support its position that:

“God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court.” The verses cited are: Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, I Kings 22:19-23, Job 15:8, and Jeremiah 23:18. These verses convey to the attentive Bible reader that the heavenly abode of the Creator is filled with the ministering angels who attend the Almighty and to whom He repeatedly refers when using the plural pronoun “Us.”

 

[MoreCoffee]

Tongues is unimportant compared to belief in the incarnation and the Trinity. But tongues is more "exciting". It's entertainment ...

 

[Albion]

Which has more or less been admitted to.

 

[MennoSota]

I am convinced now that because Jesus and God are the same monotheistic God of Abraham (God is a title by the way not his name) that his heavenly court of Angels be considered as having part of his human creation as they are his messengers in his devout service before the creation of Adam.
The answer emerges from the Torah and its Prophets. If you search the Hebrew Bible you will find that when the Almighty speaks of “us” or “our,” He is addressing His ministering angels. In fact, only two chapters later, God continues to use the pronoun “us” as He speaks with His angels. At the end of the third chapter of Genesis the Almighty relates to His angels that Adam and his wife have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and must therefore be prevented from eating from the Tree of Life as well; for if man would gain access to the Tree of Life he will “become like one of us.” The Creator then instructs his burning angels, known as Cherubim, to stand at the entrance to the gate of the Garden of Eden, waving a flaming sword to prevent man from entering the Garden and eating from the Tree of Life. Let’s examine this famed text:

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” – therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

(Genesis 3:22-24)

This use of the majestic plural in Genesis 3:22-24 is what contributed the NIV Study Bible’s annotation on Genesis 1:26 (above). At the end of its comment on this verse, the NIV Study Bible provides a number of biblical sources from the Jewish Scriptures to support its position that:

“God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court.” The verses cited are: Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, I Kings 22:19-23, Job 15:8, and Jeremiah 23:18. These verses convey to the attentive Bible reader that the heavenly abode of the Creator is filled with the ministering angels who attend the Almighty and to whom He repeatedly refers when using the plural pronoun “Us.”

That's a mighty twisting pretzel. Your view denies Yeshua is God and thus castrates his atonement for your sins. It saddens me to read your heresy.

 

[Imalive]

I am convinced now that because Jesus and God are the same monotheistic God of Abraham (God is a title by the way not his name) that his heavenly court of Angels be considered as having part of his human creation as they are his messengers in his devout service before the creation of Adam.
The answer emerges from the Torah and its Prophets. If you search the Hebrew Bible you will find that when the Almighty speaks of “us” or “our,” He is addressing His ministering angels. In fact, only two chapters later, God continues to use the pronoun “us” as He speaks with His angels. At the end of the third chapter of Genesis the Almighty relates to His angels that Adam and his wife have eaten from the Tree of Knowledge and must therefore be prevented from eating from the Tree of Life as well; for if man would gain access to the Tree of Life he will “become like one of us.” The Creator then instructs his burning angels, known as Cherubim, to stand at the entrance to the gate of the Garden of Eden, waving a flaming sword to prevent man from entering the Garden and eating from the Tree of Life. Let’s examine this famed text:

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” – therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the Garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

(Genesis 3:22-24)

This use of the majestic plural in Genesis 3:22-24 is what contributed the NIV Study Bible’s annotation on Genesis 1:26 (above). At the end of its comment on this verse, the NIV Study Bible provides a number of biblical sources from the Jewish Scriptures to support its position that:

“God speaks as the Creator-king, announcing His crowning work to the members of His heavenly court.” The verses cited are: Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, I Kings 22:19-23, Job 15:8, and Jeremiah 23:18. These verses convey to the attentive Bible reader that the heavenly abode of the Creator is filled with the ministering angels who attend the Almighty and to whom He repeatedly refers when using the plural pronoun “Us.”

I don't believe I'm created in the likeness of angels and God. I'm also a trinity: spirit, soul, body. Adam was created in His image: like Jesus. People were created in Their Image. That they will be one like We are one, Jesus prayed to the Father.
Jesus is the perfect Image of the Trinity/Father. Not only the Son, cause the Father was in Him and the Holy Spirit too.

 

[Andrew]

Tongues is unimportant compared to belief in the incarnation and the Trinity. But tongues is more "exciting". It's entertainment ...

MoreCoffee you are one of my favorite spokesmen for the Catholic faith I mean no fowl to you or the faith. I would never wish to jeopardize your understanding of the Trinity as I understand the significance of praying in the name of The Father Son and Holy Spirit. I personally do not favor the conduct of calling any man "father" in a church its rather confusing for me as we have but one Father in Heaven.
IF however, and that is a big if, the Catholic church condoned tongues as a fact or creed being as biblical as the acknowledgment of Trinity, would it not be as accepted by the bunch or denied as a bunch?
Paul did describe the voice of tongues as barbaric to any man, did you know where that term "barbaric" originated?
In Greece, because the sound that they heard as an unknown language from outsiders were gibberish to them and was heard to be along the lines of "bar-bar..." much like the "so called tongues" sounds to unbelievers. Paul describes it as a language that NO MAN as in on the face of this planet, could know, for tongues speaks mysteries unto God.
Now this phenomenon causes a Holy pouring over the ears as well, as described with Peter for although he spake in his native tongue (of man) they all heard different languages.
In genesis God and his angels "Us" ("of angels or men) confounded their tongues in which no man understood one another.
Miracles back then must have been accepted as the norm but now is labeled supernatural due to mans "scientific" terms. Indeed science gives something Godly a name and makes it their own for their favor, and indeed man also takes the mystery out of God by proclaiming they know every thing there is to know about God, none of us has the answers, we all fall short. Our understanding is limited because God is greater than us, but we are to continuously indulge our efforts through scripture to know the truth in every age and on a daily basis. I dont know all the answers and mysteries of God and will never know, but the truth is plain and simple, let no man add on outside doctrines lest you be deceived, recieve the Holy Ghost that God through his son has given up to you, to put on the new man and be re created in his image. The apostles had no such outside creeds and understanding outside the OT (for the NT or gospel was not written out yet at the time of the apostles) as they were of one mind in the monotheistic nature of God the God of Abraham, and forewarned us of Apostasy that would divide and martyr the faithful to the Apostolic Church of God.
The Trinity again was injected by a doctrine that declared any who disagree shall be beheaded or burnt at the stake, what about thou shalt not kill? I have yet to get a response to this matter as the apostle Paul for warned us.
Yet their it lays in the testimony of time that this happened as Paul saw in his days and shortly after in warning.

 

[Imalive]

Tongues is unimportant compared to belief in the incarnation and the Trinity. But tongues is more "exciting". It's entertainment ...

Thanks. That reminds me. I was praying in tongues for ppl and stopped. I need to go on w it lol.

 

[Andrew]

That's a mighty twisting pretzel. Your view denies Yeshua is God and thus castrates his atonement for your sins. It saddens me to read your heresy.

By God I do not reject the Lord who atoned for my sins. We must repent and not scam our way through repetitive prayer. As for labeling me a heretic that does absolutely nothing to me but what is it doing for you?

 

[MennoSota]

By God I do not reject the Lord who atoned for my sins. We must repent and not scam our way through repetitive prayer. As for labeling me a heretic that does absolutely nothing to me but what is it doing for you?

It helps me pray for your salvation. To deny Yeshua as being one with YHWH and the Spirit is to deny the work of God on Calvary.
It makes me sad to know you have yet to know Yeshua as your Redeemer.

 

[Andrew]

I would rather be beheaded for the lord than be a heretic to his true word. I could die in two seconds and be unrepented in which I relied on a penance of the sin im in or in full repentance of which I fear daily my God and not rely on finding a church that forgives me. The lord forgives on repentance and remission yet by his blood we are all forgiven, so should I tarry on as a careless sinner or put on a fresh robe daily and wear the full armor of God? We are called to be saints and Sons of God but what good does it do backslide in vain?
We should become as Christ in obedience as simple as what was taught by him and through his apostles.
Rejoice in humiliation for its liberty in the name of Jesus.
Dance upon your clothes and declare in the Spirit "Ye are worthy o Lord of Israel! Hallelujah!" serve God in all fullness of mind spirit and body.