Five Reasons Why Babies Should be Baptized...

[Lamb]

I have gone through the thread again because I knew there were posts I missed because of other things happening here on the site.

There was a question about can babies have faith? The video addressed that and gave these verses:
3. Infants can believe

Faith is a gift of God and the Holy Spirit can give it to whoever He wants
John the Baptist Luke 1:41
Psalm 22:9-10
Psalm 71:5-6
Luke 18:15-17 Jesus praises faith of children brought to Him

I did a short outline of the video on page 2 here.

 

[MoreCoffee]

This part of your post really concerned me that you felt this way.

Colossians 2:13-14 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Having forgiven us all our transgressions. Your remarks about people not reading scripture hasn't gone unnoticed. Maybe you should read the above one then?

You will serve yourself and me best if you worry about your own walk with God

 

[atpollard]

Friend atpollard "by grace" is what God does, through faith is a response.

Faith is a gift of God and the Holy Spirit can give it to whoever He wants
John the Baptist Luke 1:41
Psalm 22:9-10
Psalm 71:5-6
Luke 18:15-17 Jesus praises faith of children brought to Him

I quoted

Ephesians 2:8-9 [NIV] For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Rather than waste time, perhaps we could begin by having you provide an exegesis of this verse. It seems to say that all of 'saved' is "not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" placing 'faith' as a gift from God 'through' which we gain access to 'grace' which actually saves us.

I do not wish to misread into your statement "through faith is a response" and the apparent contrast you set up between a gift of God (grace) and a response (of man?) called faith.
From other posts on monergism, I suspect that was not your point, so I am simply requesting clarification of what your point was so I can respond to what you MEAN rather than what I MISHEARD.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I quoted

Ephesians 2:8-9 [NIV] For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Rather than waste time, perhaps we could begin by having you provide an exegesis of this verse. It seems to say that all of 'saved' is "not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" placing 'faith' as a gift from God 'through' which we gain access to 'grace' which actually saves us.

I do not wish to misread into your statement "through faith is a response" and the apparent contrast you set up between a gift of God (grace) and a response (of man?) called faith.
From other posts on monergism, I suspect that was not your point, so I am simply requesting clarification of what your point was so I can respond to what you MEAN rather than what I MISHEARD.

All that goes into salvation is by grace. Paul says that all of existence is God's doing, I agree with Paul.

So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-op'agus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To an unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. Acts 17:22-25​

The following comment from THE CAMBRIDGE BIBLE COMMENTARY is helpful.

Ephesians 2:8

For by grace, &c.] The connection of thought (“for”) is with the leading truth of Eph 2:4-7; the gratuitous “loving-kindness of the Lord” in the salvation of the Church. This, we have just read, will be the great future lesson of that salvation to the intelligent Universe; and this accordingly is re-stated here.

This important ver., and Eph 2:9, are rendered lit., For by grace ye have been saved, by means of faith; and that, not of you—God’s is the gift; not of works, that no one should boast. Here the main teaching is clear in itself, and clearer than ever as illustrated by eg. Romans 3; Philippians 3. The salvation of the soul, and of the Church, is essentially and entirely a matter of sovereign Divine mercy in purpose and accomplishment. It is deliberately meant that no exception or reserve is to be made to that statement. But in detail, the verse presents a problem. Does it distinctly state that “faith” is the “gift of God,” or does it state, more generally, that “gratuitous salvation” is the “gift of God,” leaving it open whether the faith which accepts it is His gift or not? The question is largely occasioned by the construction of the Greek, in which “that” (neuter) does not agree with “faith” (feminine).

—Many great expositors, Calvin at the head of them, accordingly take “that” to refer to the main previous idea, and “through faith” to be a separate inserted thought. Alford, who takes this view, states the case for it briefly and well.​

Nevertheless we recommend the other explanation, and for the following simple reason: the phrase “and that” (lit., “and this”) is familiar in N.T. Greek to introduce an addition of thought, enforcing or heightening what has gone before. See 1Co 6:6; 1Co 6:8; “and that before the unbelievers;” “and that, your brethren;” Php 1:28; Heb 11:12, (A.V., “and him, &c.”). But if it here refers only to the general previous idea, gratuitous salvation, it is hard to see what new force of thought it adds to the words “by grace.” If on the other hand it refers to the last special statement, “through faith,” there is a real additional point in the assertion that even the act of believing is a gift of God; for thus precisely the one link in the process where the man might have thought he acted alone, and where therefore, in St Paul’s sense, he might claim to “boast,” is claimed for God. Let the clauses, “and that, not of you; God’s is the gift,” be taken as a parenthesis, and the point of the interpretation will be clear; while the Greek amply admits the arrangement.

That “faith” is a matter of Divine gift is clear from e. g. 2Co 4:13; Php 1:29. Not that a new faculty of trust is implanted, but gracious manifestations—of the soul’s need and the Saviour’s glory—prevail upon the will to choose to repose trust in the right Object. The “gift” of faith is but one phase of the Divine action which (Php 2:13) “worketh in us to will.” And it may be said to be one aspect of the “gift of repentance” (Act 5:31; 2Ti 2:25), for repentance is no mere preliminary to faith; it is the whole complex “change of mind” which includes faith.​

 

[atpollard]

There was a question about can babies have faith?
3. Infants can believe
Faith is a gift of God and the Holy Spirit can give it to whoever He wants
John the Baptist Luke 1:41
Psalm 22:9-10
Psalm 71:5-6
Luke 18:15-17 Jesus praises faith of children brought to Him

No argument from me on what God can do ... anything but be untrue to his nature.
No argument from me in the case of certain specific individuals that God clearly placed his stamp of ownership on them before birth. Samson being a Nazarite before birth as one clear example. John the Baptist filled with the Holy Spirit and leaping in his mother's womb at the approach of Mary and the unborn Christ being another.

Let me ask, just because God CAN do something, does that mean he WILL do it in all cases?
Let me give another example from scripture. Paul was stoned and left for dead. They knew how to stone a person to death and it is unlikely that they just made a mistake and thought he was dead when he was not. It is far more likely that Paul was stoned to death and God 'cured' him of death. Jonah was three days in the 'belly of a fish'. The movie Pinocchio aside, one does not breathe in the belly of a fish and three days without breath typically ends in death, so God likely 'cured' Jonah of death as well. In any case, both Jonah and Paul were in situations where death was assured, but God delivered them through it alive. So God can protect his people from death (just like God can bless a baby, forgive a baby, grant a baby faith, and fill a baby with the Holy Spirit).

Does God prevent all martyrs from dying? What about the stoning of Stephen? Was Stephen left for dead, like Paul, but survived to continue preaching? What about the dozens of martyrs murdered in Egypt just this year, did God protect them like He protected Jonah and Paul? We know that God CAN. The question is does He do it in all cases? The answer, for "all martyrs", is no. The answer for "all babies" is ... unknown.

 

[Josiah]

I quoted

Ephesians 2:8-9 [NIV] For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Rather than waste time, perhaps we could begin by having you provide an exegesis of this verse. It seems to say that all of 'saved' is "not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" placing 'faith' as a gift from God 'through' which we gain access to 'grace' which actually saves us.

I do not wish to misread into your statement "through faith is a response" and the apparent contrast you set up between a gift of God (grace) and a response (of man?) called faith.
From other posts on monergism, I suspect that was not your point, so I am simply requesting clarification of what your point was so I can respond to what you MEAN rather than what I MISHEARD.

The problem is that Catholics define words differently


Every Catholic I know would passionately agree and defend that verse, insisting that Catholicism teaches that! In my Catholic days, I was taught that Catholicism teaches that.


Here's the deal: In the context of justification (narrow), Protestants define the word "grace" as God's unconditional, unmerited, unearned love, favor, blessings and gifts. Catholics define it as God's enabling. The exact definition our Catholic teachers taught us is (this is verbatim): "Grace is like spiritual 'gas' that God puts into your 'tank' so that you can get yourself where you need to get." Now, I realize some Catholic can search and probably find 100 different definitions of the word in Catholicism (Catholicism is like that) but that IS the definition we were taught an the one Catholics very consistently work with. Now, to be fair, I've recently learned that well informed Catholic teachers may teach that INITIALLY, at the very, very start, God may give a tiny bit of "grace" (in the Protestant understanding) just to "prime the pump" as a Catholic theologian stated, just so that more can be requested, earned and used - but this is just a tiny bit to get the thing going, not in any sense to justify.


SOMETIMES Catholics are ignorant that they are using the word in the exact opposite way in this context, and so they don't MEAN to deceive when they say, "We agree with Protestants that we are saved by grace." But many ARE aware that Catholics are using the word in the opposite way that Protestants do and thus their motives for stating or implying that Catholics agree with Protestants is, well.... you know. But often, I think there's just much "talking past each other."


Protestants need to beware of how some use the same words that Protestants do..... and mean something entirely, completely different (sometimes even the opposite).



Back to the issue of this thread.....



Soli Deo Gloria



- Josiah

 

[atpollard]

deleted.

Sorry, Josiah.

I wanted to present an apology as public as the false accusation.
I need to read more carefully (an explanation, not an excuse ... I am without excuse except to say mea culpa.)

 

[psalms 91]

op2:
Not picking a fight, so please take this in good humor, but ...

Here is a perfect example of a common theme in our communication [or occasional lack thereof]. I ask YOU what YOU believe about a verse to clarify your response to a statement that I made about that verse ... and you provided me with a paragraph on what Catholics believe, what other Protestants believe and cautions about how we don't mean the same thing.

Yet I am still unclear about your statement that at first glance appeared to say that God provided the Grace and man responds with the Faith ... which will bring cheers of agreement from Methodists and Evangelicals and Church of God Christians ... but which I suspect is not the point you were attempting to make. So I am still lost on your original point.

****

As an aside, a small point of humor that you should appreciate. I was 'saved' (converted from atheism to Christianity) in a Catholic Church which I attended for a while before leaving over the prayers and veneration of Mary, Queen of the Universe. I ultimately became a Reformed Baptist. MoreCoffee was a Presbyterian before converting to Catholicism. So while your warning is valid and useful to anyone just reading along, we sort of already knew.

In Essentials unity. In non-Essentials liberty. In all things charity.

Arthur

Yup that opoint sounds good to me

 

[Josiah]

I ask YOU what YOU believe

Wrong.


Your post wasn't directed to me at all, it was directed to Lamm.....


MoreCoffee, a Catholic, chose to respond to the post (which is not only perfectly okay but it's common for others to respond to posts)


I responded to how MoreCoffee responded to your post to Lamm. As a former Catholic myself who has spend MUCH of the time since I left Catholicism chatting with my beloved Catholic family and friends, I simply let you know that Catholics often don't mean words as you would. No offense at anyone, obviously. It was a tidbit of info to you, which you could freely choose to read or not, accept or not, agree with or not.

So while your warning is valid and useful to anyone just reading along, we sort of already knew.

Then the proper response would have been either nothing or "I agree" or "Thanks." Thus, I'm puzzled over the extensive response and the things publicly posted at me.


And while you and MoreCoffee may be aware of the different definitions, the CH community is larger than the two of you. This is a public forum, accessable to the entire internet community and to all those registered here. Your "we" doesn't include all who might read this exchange. Again, since you "already knew" what I posted, you need not have responded AT ALL or perhaps more appropriately might have posted, "I agree" or "Thanks for the reminder" or "Good to keep in mind." Or even "I knew that but I'm glad you so informed the many, many others who might read this exchange."



Back to the issue of this thread....



- Josiah



.

 

[Josiah]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJYh-A6xbGI


Perhaps we could return to a discussion of the "five reasons" presented by the video?

 

[atpollard]

deleted

 

[atpollard]

deleted

 

[MoreCoffee]

Friend atpollard "by grace" is what God does, through faith is a response.

Friend atpollard it was I, MoreCoffee, who wrote that post

Faith is a human response to God yet God gives it to the faithful as a grace. It is always good to keep in mind that life, breath, and everything is given by God to human beings as a grace. No one can put God in debt. Even the most good and saintly human being - Blessed Mary, faithful Enoch, upright Job - cannot offer to God anything that was not given to them by God. Jesus summarised this principle thus:

"Will any one of you, who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep, say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and sit down at table'? Will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare supper for me, and gird yourself and serve me, till I eat and drink; and afterward you shall eat and drink'? Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'" Luke 17:7-10​

 

[atpollard]

Friend atpollard it was I, MoreCoffee, who wrote that post

Well, I guess I pretty well bungled that up.

Apologies to all.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, I guess I pretty well bungled that up.

Apologies to all.

Just look at who wrote the post and all will be clear.

By the way, Catholics teach that human responses are enabled by grace and are never a work done apart from God's gift of grace to enable and to motivate.

 

[atpollard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJYh-A6xbGI

Perhaps we could return to a discussion of the "five reasons" presented by the video?

Is that what you REALLY want?

I ask because the reasons are based on a paedobaptism presupposed world view. If you really want the discussion limited to simply agreeing with the ground rules that make that the only viable conclusion, then I will oblige and leave you to it. Any discussion of the verses that command credobaptism will of course be off topic to the 5 points of why paedobaptism is essential.

So I ask with complete honesty "Is that what you REALLY want?" and will honor your response.

 

[Lamb]

I quoted

Ephesians 2:8-9 [NIV] For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Rather than waste time, perhaps we could begin by having you provide an exegesis of this verse. It seems to say that all of 'saved' is "not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" placing 'faith' as a gift from God 'through' which we gain access to 'grace' which actually saves us.

I do not wish to misread into your statement "through faith is a response" and the apparent contrast you set up between a gift of God (grace) and a response (of man?) called faith.
From other posts on monergism, I suspect that was not your point, so I am simply requesting clarification of what your point was so I can respond to what you MEAN rather than what I MISHEARD.

"By grace through faith" and that is to say that both as a whole is the gift. We have nothing within us to generate faith, so it is a gift. We know that whenever God graces us with anything, that it is also a gift. MoreCoffee (in your quote from your reply to me) said that faith is a response and that is what Catholics believe. Lutherans believe that faith is God's work in us. It is placed in us by the Holy Spirit, it can be grown by the Spirit or mankind can kill it. When we hear the Gospel, the Spirit gives us faith (I know I put the verse in this thread already someplace) and with faith we can believe.

This is why, getting back to the OP, that babies CAN believe. Because faith comes as a gift, after hearing the Gospel by the Holy Spirit so that we may believe.

 

[Lamb]

Well, I guess I pretty well bungled that up.

Apologies to all.

No problem It's so easy to do and I'm sure we've all done it at some point in our lives on threads!

 

[atpollard]

Let me try a completely different approach to the question in the OP ...

Do you offer the 'bread' (of "this is My Body") to small children? Why not?

Why does this same reason not apply to Baptism?

[Do you see how it has nothing to do with some 'magic age X', as credobaptists are often accused of teaching.]

 

[Josiah]

Do you offer the 'bread' (of "this is My Body") to small children? Why not?

1. There is no dogma in Lutheranism about WHEN people may or may not be given the Eucharist. None of our confessions list a specific age for ANYTHING, in ANY context. I think age is a Baptist and Arminianist thing.

2. That is an issue of POLITY. While some polity is addressed in our confessions, I don't recall any in reference to the Eucharist.

3. The Bible states that "one must examine himself before eating and drinking....." ( 1 Corinthians 11:28 I think). I'm unaware of a verse that mandates, "one must examine himself before any may administer Baptism for them."

4. Generally, Lutheran accept (no dogma here) that Communion is for Baptized people. Not the other way around. Again, not a point of doctrine.


Friend, if you want to discuss Holy Communion, there are already several threads on that here at CH (none currently active so you may have to dig a bit to find them).



- Josiah