Five Reasons Why Babies Should be Baptized...

[atpollard]

I wonder if friend atpollard missed the reply shown here

Honest answer. In our baptismal liturgy the parents and God parents of the child are asked "What do you ask of God's Church for <name of child>.?" and the normal answer is "baptism" but alternatives are available and for your question the alternatives are more instructive.

The celebrant may choose other words for this dialogue. The first reply may be given by someone other than the parents if local custom gives him the right to name the child.

In the second response the parents may use other words, such as, "faith," "the grace of Christ," "entrance into the Church," "eternal life."​

Catholics have a perspective on the meaning of baptism that differs profoundly from the sort of individualism that characterises most forms of Protestantism.

The scriptural basis is the same one you use but we use it with a far more communal understanding so our hermeneutic differs from yours fundamentally.

No, I didn't miss it. It was actually illuminating and helpful to understand the Catholic perspective. I do not think that your answer is the Lutheran perspective. It is entirely too close to the OT Covenant for my (purely personal) comfort. If I understood correctly, baptism of a Catholic infant is nothing more or less than admission into the Catholic 'people'. The power of salvation comes collectively to the body of believers through the Church (the Catholic Church) ... but still from the Cross of Christ.

In many ways it felt similar to the OT concept of a Covenant People with promises applied to individuals through the nation. I think the chance of a Baptist, Catholic ecumenical council is close to zero.

I wish I could UNDERSTAND what Lutherans believe as clearly. They seem to use different meanings for the same terms from those that I am familiar with. I am honestly not sure where the line falls between points I actually disagree with and semantics.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No, I didn't miss it. It was actually illuminating and helpful to understand the Catholic perspective. I do not think that your answer is the Lutheran perspective. It is entirely too close to the OT Covenant for my (purely personal) comfort. If I understood correctly, baptism of a Catholic infant is nothing more or less than admission into the Catholic 'people'. The power of salvation comes collectively to the body of believers through the Church (the Catholic Church) ... but still from the Cross of Christ.

In many ways it felt similar to the OT concept of a Covenant People with promises applied to individuals through the nation. I think the chance of a Baptist, Catholic ecumenical council is close to zero.

I wish I could UNDERSTAND what Lutherans believe as clearly. They seem to use different meanings for the same terms from those that I am familiar with. I am honestly not sure where the line falls between points I actually disagree with and semantics.

I am unsure of the meanings that Lutherans attach to words. I haven't managed to get a comprehensible response to this statement "No one ought to expect forgiveness without repentance". When I ask "who ought to expect forgiveness without repentance" the reply didn't attempt to answer the question. I give up when it gets to be as obscure as that.

 

[Lamb]

I am unsure of the meanings that Lutherans attach to words. I haven't managed to get a comprehensible response to this statement "No one ought to expect forgiveness without repentance". When I ask "who ought to expect forgiveness without repentance" the reply didn't attempt to answer the question. I give up when it gets to be as obscure as that.

Instead of complaining about the Lutherans why didn't you ask specific questions about the response you received instead of only writing "Interesting"? Wouldn't that be more effective communication?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Instead of complaining about the Lutherans why didn't you ask specific questions about the response you received instead of only writing "Interesting"? Wouldn't that be more effective communication?

I did and you said That's my response to you and it won't change, the response you gave was entirely unrelated to my question. I asked "who ought to expect forgiveness without repentance" and you told me about "Those who receive the gift of repentance ..." I thought the adamant statement "That's my response to you and it won't change" marked an end to meaningful discussion. So I said "interesting".

 

[Lamb]

I did and you said That's my response to you and it won't change, the response you gave was entirely unrelated to my question. I asked "who ought to expect forgiveness without repentance" and you told me about "Those who receive the gift of repentance ..." I thought the adamant statement "That's my response to you and it won't change" marked an end to meaningful discussion. So I said "interesting".

What part of my response was confusing to you and needed clarification?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What part of my response was confusing to you and needed clarification?

None was confusing all was irrelevant.

 

[Lamb]

None was confusing all was irrelevant.

Did I not point you to the cross for forgiveness of sins? That's always relevant.

 

[TurtleHare]

No one ought to expect forgiveness without repentance.

Unbelievers don't think they need forgiveness or a Savior or to repent and this all falls back on the truth of the bible that God calls his sheep and they are his and even though he died for all not all become his sheep. I've seen you blast this on the forum now more than a couple times with claims that it hasn't been addressed and yet it has and you must be baiting to look for some other answer that you haven't been given yet because obviously the cross and the savior and the holy spirit and faith given aren't a part of your needed response.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Did I not point you to the cross for forgiveness of sins? That's always relevant.

The question asked is who ought to expect forgiveness without repentance? Telling me about the cross does not answer the question. In fact it is not relevant to the question because the question asks: WHO ought to expect forgiveness WITHOUT REPENTANCE? The question is not "who receives grace?" or "who repents?" or "who is saved?" or "for whom did Christ die?" or any other variation on that theme. In post #217 I already agreed that "No one can be forgiven without Jesus' saving work". Forgiveness is not possible without Christ's saving work. That issue is agreed already is it not?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Unbelievers don't think they need forgiveness or a Savior or to repent and this all falls back on the truth of the bible that God calls his sheep and they are his and even though he died for all not all become his sheep. I've seen you blast this on the forum now more than a couple times with claims that it hasn't been addressed and yet it has and you must be baiting to look for some other answer that you haven't been given yet because obviously the cross and the savior and the holy spirit and faith given aren't a part of your needed response.

The statement in my post says No one ought to expect forgiveness without repentance., Ought an unbeliever to expect forgiveness without repentance? I am not saying "Some unbelievers expect forgiveness without repentance?" maybe some unbelievers do but that is not the issue. Nobody is being baited. It is a statement not a question. The question I asked after making the statement is "Who ought to expect forgiveness without repentance?" Can you think of anybody who OUGHT TO EXPECT that without repentance they will receive forgiveness?

In another (related) thread I wrote:

My perspective is this - we are saved by grace. Grace is more than "undeserved kindness" though it certainly is kindness and it is unearned and undeserved (that's redundant I know but if I don't say it somebody will assume I mean something that I do not mean). I hesitate to say that salvation is such and such from God's perspective because I am not God and what little of God's perspective is available from the holy scriptures does not tell me enough to know what God's perspective on human salvation is beyond the simple and explicit statements that amount to "we are saved by grace". From my very human perspective I rely on God's goodness for everything and seek to serve him even though I expect that I will think, do, and say things that are not what God wants from me. I do not expect forgiveness without repentance but I dare to hope for it. I do not think that anybody ought to expect forgiveness without repentance yet I believe that mercy will triumph over condemnation for the faithful. I do not want to presume God will do such and such or that God will refrain from this or that even if there is something in the holy scriptures to tell me that such may be the case. Nevertheless I rejoice in the promises of God and hope for their bounty to be given to me - miserable sinner that I am. I do not rely on my own understanding nor on my own deeds nor on my own worthiness for anything but I do not pretend that the Holy Spirit does not work the works of God in and through his people. I do not seek to prove everything to my own satisfaction but when I can understand and be satisfied I rejoice. Grace is internal and it works by the generosity of God. In the end, like Paul, I know that I live and move and have my being by God's grace.​

I am including that statement here so it can be seen in this thread. I've said the things written above many times over the years I have been posting in CH.

 

[Lamb]

The question asked is who ought to expect forgiveness without repentance? Telling me about the cross does not answer the question. In fact it is not relevant to the question because the question asks: WHO ought to expect forgiveness WITHOUT REPENTANCE? The question is not "who receives grace?" or "who repents?" or "who is saved?" or "for whom did Christ die?" or any other variation on that theme. In post #217 I already agreed that "No one can be forgiven without Jesus' saving work". Forgiveness is not possible without Christ's saving work. That issue is agreed already is it not?

The cross is the very place you need to direct your focus when you want to know about forgiveness of sins. That is where your sins were taken by Jesus to be nailed to the cross and forgiven by God. You see, those who see the Savior's death at the cross KNOW their sins are forgiven. That's the assurance and joy and can only be received by faith which is given by the Holy Spirit. As Turtlehare said, nonbelievers don't believe they need forgiven and the bible says the Gospel is folly to unbelievers. So only believers want their sins forgiven and the cross is where it happened. We don't look to repentance for forgiveness. We look to the cross. The Holy Spirit turns us (that's repentance) to God so we can by faith trust in the cross and know our sins are forgiven.

I expect that God didn't lie when He said He forgave all our transgressions. You should expect the same.

Colossians 2:13-14 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

 

[atpollard]

Deleted

 

[MoreCoffee]

I do not "want to know about forgiveness" I did not ask about it.

Nevertheless no one ought to expect forgiveness without repentance.

Presbyterians say:

Of Repentance unto Life

1. Repentance unto life is an evangelical grace, the doctrine whereof is to be preached by every minister of the gospel, as well as that of faith in Christ.

2. By it, a sinner, out of the sight and sense not only of the danger, but also of the filthiness and odiousness of his sins, as contrary to the holy nature, and righteous law of God; and upon the apprehension of his mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, so grieves for, and hates his sins, as to turn from them all unto God, purposing and endeavoring to walk with him in all the ways of his commandments.

3. Although repentance be not to be rested in, as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of the pardon thereof, which is the act of God's free grace in Christ; yet it is of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it.

4. As there is no sin so small, but it deserves damnation; so there is no sin so great, that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent.

5. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly.

6. As every man is bound to make private confession of his sins to God, praying for the pardon thereof; upon which, and the forsaking of them, he shall find mercy; so, he that scandalizeth his brother, or the church of Christ, ought to be willing, by a private or public confession, and sorrow for his sin, to declare his repentance to those that are offended, who are thereupon to be reconciled to him, and in love to receive him.​

 

[Lamb]

Perhaps you might want to think about how repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected then.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Perhaps you might want to think about how repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected then.

Why would I want to think about how repentance and forgiveness of sins are connected then? Haven't I already done that?

Anyway, baptism is not tied to individual personal repentance. If it were then infants ought not be baptised, right?

 

[atpollard]

Anyway, baptism is not tied to individual personal repentance. If it were then infants ought not be baptised, right?

That's the way Reformed Baptists see the 'problem'. We do see baptism, repentance and forgiveness of sins all tied together at the cross of Christ and the heart of the saved (God's sheep).

 

[MoreCoffee]

That's the way Reformed Baptists see the 'problem'. We see baptism tied to individual personal repentence.

I agree, Baptists and many evangelicals do see baptism as something tied to individual personal repentance while Catholics do not. For Catholics baptism is a means of grace and grace depends on God alone insofar as God is the giver of grace and he gives freely because he wants to and not because he is in debt to anybody needing to pay them. Since grace depends on God's goodness and not on individual personal repentance no one ought to demand individual personal repentance before permitting baptism.

 

[atpollard]

I agree, Baptists and many evangelicals do see baptism as something tied to individual personal repentance while Catholics do not. For Catholics baptism is a means of grace and grace depends on God alone insofar as God is the giver of grace and he gives freely because he wants to and not because he is in debt to anybody needing to pay them. Since grace depends on God's goodness and not on individual personal repentance no one ought to demand individual personal repentance before permitting baptism.

Just for the record, repentence of the individual, baptism of the individual and forgiveness of the individual are all linked on the RESPONSE side of the sotierology equation and none of them are on the CAUSE side of the equation. Thus none are a prerequisite for any of the others. All three flow from the "by grace through faith, and this not of yourself" side of the equation ... the election of the Father (Romans 8:28-39), the security in the Son (John 6:44, John 10:25-30) and the transformation wrought by the Holy Spirit (Ezekiel 36:26, Hebrews 10:16). In the Old Testament, God sent prophets to call nations to repentence and covenant. In the New Testament, Christ reaches out to touch individual hearts and transform one life at a time. Even when addressing a crowd, God called and some heard and some did not. Individual by individual. John 6:43-44 explains the difference.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Friend atpollard "by grace" is what God does, through faith is a response.

 

[Lamb]

I do not expect forgiveness without repentance but I dare to hope for it.

This part of your post really concerned me that you felt this way.

Colossians 2:13-14 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Having forgiven us all our transgressions. Your remarks about people not reading scripture hasn't gone unnoticed. Maybe you should read the above one then?