• Welcome to Christianity Haven, thank you for visiting! If you have not already, we invite you to create an account and join in on the many discussions we have! 

    • Please be aware that when registering you must not register while using a VPN. Any registrations made using a VPN will be rejected.
    • Additionally, registration emails are not being sent out which is an issue that is being worked on. Your registration may go into an approval queue for admin approval. We work to send manual emails to the email on file, so please ensure the email you use is one you can readily access! 

First Principles Thinking Through the Doctrine of Divine Immutability and the Character of God

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of you are worthy of this work.

You can all face God in ignorance! Good bye!
 
Last edited:

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of you are worthy of this work.​
 
Last edited:

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of you are worthy of this work.
 
Last edited:

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of you are worthy of this work.
 
Last edited:

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of you are worthy of this work.
 
Last edited:

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of you are worthy of this work.
 
Last edited:

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of you are worthy of this work.
 
Last edited:

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of you are worthy of this work.
 
Last edited:

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of you are worthy of this work.
 
Last edited:

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of you are worthy of this work.
 
Last edited:

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of you are worthy of this work.
 
Last edited:

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of you are worthy of this work.
 
Last edited:

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of you are worthy of this work.
 
Last edited:

jswauto

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2025
Messages
601
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I just want to state at the beginning that I placed this thread in this "Ethics & Debate Center" forum because there is at least one person who posts on this website who I know doesn't ascribe to the Nicene Creed and would therefore not be allowed to engage the discussions that my posts will hopefully generate. It is my firm conviction that a great many people reject Christianity because of the glaring, intentional and even proudly incoherent nature of many of the doctrines that Christians teach. I, for one, insist - INSIST - on having a rationally coherent worldview. There is simply no such thing as an irrational truth. With that in mind, I invite all comers, believers and unbelievers alike, to engage the discussion. I promise to be as intellectually honest as I am capable of being and submit to those who have rejected Christianity on the basis of logic, that what you've rejected either isn't irrational isn't biblical. The difference with me is that I won't ever invite you to turn off your mind.

A few other points in preparation for what follows.

1. I personally wrote everything you are about to read. I did not copy/paste it from some other source. It is entirely my own.

2. I hate it when someone who disagrees with a particular doctrinal system sets of straw men caricatures of that system, proceeds to knock them down and then declares victory. That is dishonesty and beneath the dignity of someone who identifies themselves as a representative of Christ. If you can't defeat what they actually believe then go educate yourself.

3. There is a pretty tight limit on the length of posts on this website and so while I'd very much like to post larger segments of my essay, I don't have that option. So, I will post my essay in chunks, the first several of which will be intended to lay out several doctrines in the terms that those who are proponents of those doctrines would agree with. While we are in that stage, I'd encourage anyone who agrees with the doctrine but disagrees with the way I've presented it to please say so. I've put quite a lot of effort into NOT setting up straw man arguments. I want to be accurate so, by all means, correct me if you think I've mischaracterized something.

Okay, so just with that I've taken up more than 22% of my allotted space for this post! Wow! Let's get to it....




P.S. After several posts over several days, there's been no responses offered to anything stated in my essay so far. This website seems to be less populated and active than I had hoped. Regardless, I'll continue to post my essay a section at a time and people can read it and respond to it - or not. Posts 2 through 6 are basically a presentation of Calvinist doctrine and how it is predicated on the premise of absolute divine immutability; the idea that God CANNOT change in ANY WAY whatsoever. I spent quite a lot of time and effort presenting that material from their own perspective, using their own arguments and doing so in a manner that conveys their real doctrine rather than any sort of distortion of it. If you are reading this and are already familiar with Calvinist doctrines feel free to start reading at post 7 where I begin to look more closely at the doctrine of immutability itself.
Everybody is scared of you!
 

jswauto

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2025
Messages
601
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The Right Lens for Interpreting Scripture (Part 2 of 2)

Indeed, if such an idea were taught in scripture it would serve to falsify the entire Christian faith. Timelessness is a philosophical fiction. A timeless being is a contradiction in terms. Being presupposes time. Existence presupposes duration. Time is simply the relationship that one event has to another. When we speak about time, we are talking about the duration and sequence of events relative to other events. To act, to think, to know, to choose, to speak, to be, to live are not things that happen "within" time; they are time in motion. They are events that occur either before, during, or after other events. Strip away succession, and you have stripped away the very possibility of action or identity, because both action and identity are events. A being that does not experience before and after is not living, not conscious, not anything at all. It is not merely less than personal; it is utterly incoherent.

The God of Scripture is not timeless. He speaks, He remembers, He anticipates, He fulfills. These are not metaphors; they are the grammar of life. Time is not a container that limits God. On the contrary, duration and succession are inherent to existence itself. The God of Scripture does not step into time as a concession to our finitude. He simply exists. You cannot have existence without duration. You cannot have identity without continuity. The living God does not feign sequence. He lives it. And it is precisely this that makes relationship possible, redemption meaningful, and love real.

Some, however, will object. They will say that to affirm God's eternal existence as a sequence of lived moments is to introduce an infinite regress. If there was no first moment in God's life, how did we ever arrive at this moment? If there are infinite steps behind us, how have we moved forward? Surely, they reason, an infinite past is impossible.

This objection arises from a misunderstanding of what infinity is. An infinite regress is only a problem if one imagines that infinity must be crossed like a finish line. Yet infinity is not a finish line. It is not a journey that must be completed. On the contrary, it is the absence of any starting point or terminus. We did not arrive here by traveling from the first moment of God's existence. There never was a first moment. Just as there is no first negative number, there is no earliest moment in the life of the eternal God. His life is not measured by countable events but by the boundlessly infinite, continuous fullness of being.

Some have claimed that an actual infinite cannot exist and that an unending sequence of past moments is metaphysically impossible. That claim does not hold. Modern set theory has long demonstrated that actual infinites are both logically coherent and mathematically well-defined. The difficulty lies not with infinite sequence but with finite intuition. We are creatures of beginnings and endings, and we wrongly suppose that what is true of the finite must be true of the infinite. It is not. Infinity is not a number and cannot rightly be placed into a mathematical equation. It is the endlessness of that which never began and will never end. The infinite regress objection applies the concept of addition (or subtraction) to the concept of infinity and thereby commits a category error.

The God of Scripture is not timeless. He is infinite. Not frozen outside of sequence, but alive within it, without beginning or end. His love has no starting point. His righteousness no moment of origin. His knowledge no initial impulse. He has always been what He is, not statically, but relationally, actively, eternally.

This puts a new and deeper meaning on what it means for God to be infinite. Infinity is not the absence of motion, but the fullness of life without boundary. It is not timelessness, but unbounded vitality. The God who is infinite is not abstract, aloof, or frozen in a changeless present. He is the ever-living One, whose infinite being is the very ground of relationship, meaning, and love.

So then, after having seen two stark examples of how this lens affects one’s understanding of God and of Scripture, a final point must be made. These two lenses (i.e. absolute immutability vs. quality of character) are not minor differences in emphasis, nor do they stand as two co-equal options from which one may choose based on doctrinal inclination or personal preference. They represent two fundamentally incompatible ways of understanding God and of reading Scripture. One system begins with divine immutability as its lens and forces every passage, doctrine, and narrative through that filter. The other begins with God's revealed character, His righteousness, His justice, and His relational integrity, and lets those qualities support and guide our interpretation of Scripture.

Some may be tempted to think they can have it both ways, that they can cling to Aristotle’s immutability while still affirming that God is loving, but the choice cannot be avoided. One is forced to choose between a God who predestines everything that happens and a God who pleads for repentance, between a God who knows everything in advance and a God who investigates Sodom, between a God whose plan is unalterable and a God who is persuaded from wrath by Moses, between a God who is immutable and impassible and a God who becomes a man, who weeps at the death of a friend, who sweats drops of blood, who dies the death we deserve, and who rises from the dead by His own power.

Either we read the Bible through the lens of Neoplatonic philosophy, or we read it through the lens God Himself has given us, that He is personal, rational, relational, righteous, and just. Each framework yields a different God, a different gospel, and a fundamentally different understanding of what it means to know Him.

Having chosen the latter and exchanged metaphysical absolutes for moral and relational integrity, we are left with a pressing question: Can a God who feels, chooses, and responds be counted on without fail?
Look at the book of Revelation. It was the Lord's good pleasure to design it that way; the mystery of it.
 

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Look at the book of Revelation. It was the Lord's good pleasure to design it that way; the mystery of it.
This comment does not seem to connect to anything I said. Please clarify.
 

jswauto

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2025
Messages
601
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes

jswauto

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2025
Messages
601
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The Bible clearly focuses on man's free will and making the correct decision concerning the Lord. That is against the Calvinistic beliefs. Am I understanding that correctly?
 

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The Bible clearly focuses on man's free will and making the correct decision concerning the Lord. That is against the Calvinistic beliefs. Am I understanding that correctly?
It isn't man's free will that's the point, it's God's character that's the focus.

As I said early in the essay, one's theology must start with God. What we believe about God Himself will directly impact the entire rest of our doctrine. As such, the fact that we have a will (i.e. we have the ability to choose) is a conclusion, not a premise. The premise is God's character; that He is personal, rational, relational, righteous, loving, joyful, just, etc. That it is not God's power nor the extent of His knowledge that makes Him a good God, its that He wields that power and knowledge with righteousness, wisdom and justice that makes Him worthy of praise.
 
Last edited:

VeritatisVerba

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 30, 2025
Messages
112
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
None of you are worthy of this work.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom