Ever Virgin

[Josiah]

If that play with words pleases you by all means keep with the fancy behind it.

Sorry, but adjectives are not by neccesity proper nouns. I realize that in extreme desperation, some Catholics will change an adjective into the proper noun and legal moniker of a denomination in an effort to give some support to the claim of one denomination for it itself, but this is just changing what was stated.

If I say my car is awesome, that does not mean that if in 2435 Chevrolet comes out with a rocket which it names the Chevrolet Awesome, ergo I owned one of those in 2016. Come on, MoreCoffee..... Protestants (more than Catholics) believe the church is one, holy, catholic communion of saints. Our embrace of that is anathma in the RC Denomination which it itself eventually came to view as an affirmation of one singular denomination being this church "in fulness" so that in its theology (if not ALWAYS in its print) is "one, holy, ROMAN CATHOLIC DENOMINATION headed up by the infallible/unaccoutable Bishop in Rome of it itself."


In an attempt to divert, evade, avoid the issue of whether this DE FIDE DOGMA of the RC Denomination is true or not - to the level claimed or otherwise - our Catholic friend has tried to change topics to affirm the view of the RCC that that exclusive, singular, unique, individual denomination IS the one, holy, catholic church (at least fully). That, obviously, has nothing to do with anything remotely related to this thread (it's just a diversion, a way to get the attention OFF whether this Dogma of the RCC is true or not), an attempt to not make it obvious that his hand is empty.

The simple truth is that there is and was and always will be one holy catholic and apostolic church and many schisms and some heresies and various groups all laying claim to what they cannot be.

Here's the unavoidable truth:


1. There was no denomination - the RCC or LDS or EOC or UCC or any other - until centuries after Christ. There were CHRISTIANS (and thus the one, holy, catholic church - the communion of saints) but NO denomination - still existing today or otherwise.

2. Yes, the Roman Empire created a denomination in the 4th Century, made in its own image. But it was never catholic since the congregations it owned NEVER included all Christians (died and alive). It was only for the congregations within the Empire. This denomination was "one" for about a century, until it split in 451. It split again in 1054 (although de facto, centuries before that).

3. The RC Denomination is one of thousands today. It's the largest. It claims to be the oldest (although the OOC and EOC also claim this - with better history behind them). But theologically, it's irrelevant which is the best "heir" to the one Rome founded in the 4th Century or which denomination is the biggest. I think there is MUCH admirable in the RC Denomination, but that too is irrelevant to the remarkable, power-grabbing, accountability-evading claims that it itself makes for it itself exclusively. Mercedes Benz may be the oldest car company..... Volkswagon may be the largest car company.... both are irrelevant to either being infallible, unaccountable, all-powerful lords over all, founded directly by Jesus.

And again, all this is just a diversion.... a ploy to get the attention OFF the topic before us: Is this remarkable, very private, personal bedroom tidbit of info about Mary TRUE - as a matter of highest certainty and importance possible, of greatest necessity of belief possible, de fide Dogma? Or does truth not matter in the singular, unique case of Mary (being she's too insignificant for such to matter in HER case)?

Yet your fellow Lutheran, Josiah, repeatedly calls the Catholic Church singular, individual, and so forth.

Actually, it's your claim. You are the one who keeps saying there is ONE Catholic Church, that it is united and such.

And I agree - OFFICIALLY anyway, the singular RC Denomination is in full agreement in all matters that it itself uniquely currently holds as dogma about which it itself must agree with it itself concerning. Yup. Of course, the same is true for every other denomination, sect, cult, group, organization and person. SO WHAT? It (and its docilic, submissive, parroting members) make this point all the time - how one, how united their denomination is - never telling us SO WHAT? The LDS is in full agreement with it itself on all official, dogmatic positions that it itself currently holds that it itself be agreement with it itself concerning - just like the RC Denomination. SO WHAT? What does that prove about the LDS? Or RCC? No, CatholicS do't always agree with CatholicS - but that's not the claim, the claim is THE singular, individual RC Denomination currently, officially, individually agrees with it itself (exclusively, uniquely). SO WHAT?

Now MoreCoffee wants it both ways - the RCC is one but the RCC isn't one. Whatever seems to serve his purpose. But it's all just a diversion (and we never are told SO WHAT). This thread is about this tidbit of info about the private, personal, marriage bed of Mary after Jesus was born, an issue of marital intimacy which Catholics tend to regard as rude, offensive and insulting to talk about. The issue is: IS IT TRUE? AND TO THE LEVEL CLAIMED? In 36 pages of posts, MoreCoffee could present nothing... but a plethora of diversions in hopes of changing the topic.

birth control..... divorce followed by another marriage is lawful.... absent one's self from the assembly of the faithful ... fraternities, sororities, and many voluntary societies ....

ANYTHING to change the subject. ANYTHING to evade the issue of whether this tidbit claimed to be DE FIDE DOGMA is true. 36 pages of these diversions, evasions, dodges.... Is it because Truth is irrelevant in the RC Denomination? Or when it comes to Mary? Or maybe it's NOT dogmatic, a matter of highest certainty possible, a matter of highest importance possible (as the Protestants have been saying for 36 pages but MoreCoffee has been dodging)?

the divisions between the denominations

Yup, the RC Denomination is in full doctrinal unity with NONE. In disunity with ALL. Yup. And yes - the same can be said of most denominations. This diversion of yours is just another "pot calling kettle black", just another example of Jesus' "log/speck" point. And just another diversion - anything to avoid showing this divisive dogma (that splits denomination) is true.... to the level claimed or at all.


When your singular denomination comes into full doctrinal unity with all others, you can rebuke all the other denominations that haven't acheived that. Until then, pot calling kettle black.


Ever going to address if this divisive, de fide dogma is TRUE? Absolutely NECESSARY? Of highest importance and certainty possible? How many more pages of diversions?




- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

Here is the truth, in all denoms there is a remnant that is in Christ and are His and the true church are those who are truly His and not in name only or do not follow Him. That is the true church, no one denom, no one man with exclusive info from God concerning us.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Here is the truth, in all denoms there is a remnant that is in Christ and are His and the true church are those who are truly His and not in name only or do not follow Him. That is the true church, no one denom, no one man with exclusive info from God concerning us.

I think it is otherwise psalms 91. There is one church which is holy catholic and apostolic. It is catholic both in geography and in time because some of the one holy catholic and apostolic church is in heaven (in eternity) and another part is on Earth. The one holy catholic and apostolic church is a real church not a phantom of scattered individuals hidden like wheat among the tares. In truth it is the tares that are hidden among the wheat within the one holy catholic and apostolic church. The creeds and history and the holy scriptures testify to this. The Lord founded one church not a multitude of denominations non-denominational and independent churches/meetings/groups.

 

[Rens]

I think it is otherwise psalms 91. There is one church which is holy catholic and apostolic. It is catholic both in geography and in time because some of the one holy catholic and apostolic church is in heaven (in eternity) and another part is on Earth. The one holy catholic and apostolic church is a real church not a phantom of scattered individuals hidden like wheat among the tares. In truth it is the tares that are hidden among the wheat within the one holy catholic and apostolic church. The creeds and history and the holy scriptures testify to this. The Lord founded one church not a multitude of denominations non-denominational and independent churches/meetings/groups.

Yes but He didn't found the RCC. That's just the first denomination.

 

[psalms 91]

I think it is otherwise psalms 91. There is one church which is holy catholic and apostolic. It is catholic both in geography and in time because some of the one holy catholic and apostolic church is in heaven (in eternity) and another part is on Earth. The one holy catholic and apostolic church is a real church not a phantom of scattered individuals hidden like wheat among the tares. In truth it is the tares that are hidden among the wheat within the one holy catholic and apostolic church. The creeds and history and the holy scriptures testify to this. The Lord founded one church not a multitude of denominations non-denominational and independent churches/meetings/groups.

I would have expected nothing less from you but the truth is still the truth, you just buy the lies that yours was founded by peter and goes clear back which it doesnt and yours is not the only and true church, far from it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I would have expected nothing less from you but the truth is still the truth, you just buy the lies that yours was founded by peter and goes clear back which it doesnt and yours is not the only and true church, far from it.

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ not by saint Peter.

 

[Rens]

The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ not by saint Peter.

meaning universal, yes, people made it to institutes

 

[MoreCoffee]

meaning universal, yes, people made it to institutes

The Creed says one holy catholic and apostolic church while the holy scriptures do not say catholic church anywhere so the question is what did the authors of the creed mean by the expression catholic church and the answer is they meant the church that they represented. They were bishops in the catholic church. They believed Mary was the mother of God. They believed that the bishop of Rome was first among the bishops. They believed in the intercession of the saints. They prayer to Blessed Mary and the holy saints. They had bibles that included Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, first and second Maccabees. In short they were Catholic not Protestant.

 

[Lamb]

The creed says catholic as in universal not as in a Roman Catholic denomination. The "Protestant" split didn't happen until 1500s so of course believers weren't called Protestant back then

 

[MoreCoffee]

The creed says catholic as in universal not as in a Roman Catholic denomination. The "Protestant" split didn't happen until 1500s so of course believers weren't called Protestant back then

No, the creed doesn't say catholic as in "universal" it says it as in "according to the whole" and intends to say that the whole people of God - all the faithful - believe and confess the things in the creed. The idea of a universal invisible non-organisational church is a post renaissance invention. It is a pattern of thought that the early church fathers did not have. ... The Creed says one holy catholic and apostolic church while the holy scriptures do not say catholic church anywhere so the question is what did the authors of the creed mean by the expression catholic church and the answer is they meant the church that they represented. They were bishops in the catholic church. They believed Mary was the mother of God. They believed that the bishop of Rome was first among the bishops. They believed in the intercession of the saints. They prayer to Blessed Mary and the holy saints. They had bibles that included Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, first and second Maccabees. In short they were Catholic not Protestant.

 

[Rens]

The Creed says one holy catholic and apostolic church while the holy scriptures do not say catholic church anywhere so the question is what did the authors of the creed mean by the expression catholic church and the answer is they meant the church that they represented. They were bishops in the catholic church. They believed Mary was the mother of God. They believed that the bishop of Rome was first among the bishops. They believed in the intercession of the saints. They prayer to Blessed Mary and the holy saints. They had bibles that included Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, first and second Maccabees. In short they were Catholic not Protestant.

But the creed was not from Jesus or the apostles. Jesus didn't found a catholic or protestant church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

But the creed was not from Jesus or the apostles. Jesus didn't found a catholic or protestant church.

Jesus founded one church and it is holy catholic and apostolic. He has one body not a multitude of bodies that war one against the other.

 

[Lamb]

No, the creed doesn't say catholic as in "universal" it says it as in "according to the whole" and intends to say that the whole people of God - all the faithful - believe and confess the things in the creed. The idea of a universal invisible non-organisational church is a post renaissance invention. It is a pattern of thought that the early church fathers did not have. ... The Creed says one holy catholic and apostolic church while the holy scriptures do not say catholic church anywhere so the question is what did the authors of the creed mean by the expression catholic church and the answer is they meant the church that they represented. They were bishops in the catholic church. They believed Mary was the mother of God. They believed that the bishop of Rome was first among the bishops. They believed in the intercession of the saints. They prayer to Blessed Mary and the holy saints. They had bibles that included Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, first and second Maccabees. In short they were Catholic not Protestant.

You do realize that universal is the same as saying according to the whole right?

Universal invisible...this is because as man we cannot see into the hearts of who has faith so this is why we cannot know and only God can WHO is a part of HIS Church.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You do realize that universal is the same as saying according to the whole right?

Catholic meaning according to the whole community of Christians is not the same as universal. Christians were a minority at the time the Nicene Creed was written. They were not universal but their were the whole community of Christians.

Universal invisible...this is because as man we cannot see into the hearts of who has faith so this is why we cannot know and only God can WHO is a part of HIS Church.

 

[Rens]

Jesus founded one church and it is holy catholic and apostolic. He has one body not a multitude of bodies that war one against the other.

One Body yes, but in Paul's time they also bit and ate each other.

 

[Josiah]

Jesus founded one church and it is holy catholic and apostolic. He has one body not a multitude of bodies that war one against the other.

Continuing diversion..... Since in 37 pages of posts you've not been able to produce anything to document that this very private, personal, intimate bedroom tidbit about Mary is TRUE (much less to the degree claimed).... since truth about Mary appears to be irrelevant to you and Catholics in general..... what we get is an endless plethora of amazing diversions; anything to change the subject, to get the attention OFF this divisive, de fide Dogma of your denomination.


Of course, the RC Denomination is in division with every other denomination on the planet; it is in unity with NONE, a unity of ZERO, nada, zip. You were asked to list all the denominations in which the RCC is in full and complete theological agreement but you could not come up with even one, not even one. The reason: your denomination is in unity with NONE, it is divided with ALL. True - the same can be said of many other denominations.... some are just as bad as the RC Denomination in this regard, but none worse, there is no denomiation on the planet with a unity of less than NONE - the unity that the RC Denomination has. But the undeniable reality that the RC Denomination is in disunity with all does NOTHING to document that Mary Had No Sex EVER - as a matter of greatest certainty, importance and necessity possible. Anymore than the reality that the LDS Denomination is in unity with none proves that Joseph Smith found those plates. It's absurd. It's silly. And obviously, it's just a diversion.... evidence that you realize you have nothing, your hand is empty. And of course, Catholics will continue to point out that shouting about how often married couples have or don't have sex is rude, offensive and nobody's business - as they go on and on and on, as DE FIDE DOGMA - about how often a couple did or did not have sex.



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

One Body yes, but in Paul's time they also bit and ate each other.

Yes, some split and saint John remarks They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[Rens]

Yes, some split and saint John remarks They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Oh I didn't mean that. Those were not christians. I meant what Paul said. With the start there was total unity with Pentecost, but a little while later you had this:

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

Watering, Working, Warning
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

 

[Josiah]

Yes, some split and saint John remarks They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Continuing diversion.....


Since in 38 pages of posts you've not been able to produce anything to document that this very private, personal, intimate bedroom tidbit about Mary is TRUE (much less to the degree claimed).... since truth about Mary appears to be irrelevant to you and Catholics in general..... what we get is an endless plethora of amazing diversions; anything to change the subject, to get the attention OFF this divisive, de fide Dogma of your denomination.


Of course, the RC Denomination is in division with every other denomination on the planet; it is in unity with NONE, a unity of ZERO, nada, zip. You were asked to list all the denominations in which the RCC is in full and complete theological agreement but you could not come up with even one, not even one. The reason: your denomination is in unity with NONE, it is divided with ALL. True - the same can be said of many other denominations.... some are just as bad as the RC Denomination in this regard, but none worse, there is no denomination on the planet with a unity of less than NONE - the unity that the RC Denomination has. But the undeniable reality that the RC Denomination is in disunity with all does NOTHING to document that Mary Had No Sex EVER - as a matter of greatest certainty, importance and necessity possible. Anymore than the reality that the LDS Denomination is in unity with none proves that Joseph Smith found those plates. It's absurd. It's silly. And obviously, it's just a diversion.... evidence that you realize you have nothing, your hand is empty. And of course, Catholics will continue to point out that shouting about how often married couples have or don't have sex is rude, offensive and nobody's business - as they go on and on and on, as DE FIDE DOGMA - about how often a couple did or did not have sex.



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Oh I didn't mean that. Those were not christians. I meant what Paul said. With the start there was total unity with Pentecost, but a little while later you had this:

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

Watering, Working, Warning
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

Do you think that everybody who leaves the church is not a Christian?