USA Dump Trump

[Josiah]

Former president Donald Trump has become a huge lightening rod, one of the most controversal figtures in American history.

And it IS personal. On many issues, it's not what Trump believes or what he has done or proposed. Most Republicans fully embrace that.... a lot of Independents do, too. It's TRUMP that is the issue. Some love him (some would say there is a personality cult at work), some hate him (often with an irrational passion). And it seems to me, his negatives are growing. We see that in his not being re-elected but I think it's fallen especially since January 6. Trump campaigned for some in 2022 - and it might be seen that actually cost us a couple of senate seats (and maybe the senate). Again, I don't think a lot of people strongly dislike his views on issues (other than on the election) but they dislike HIM. And I think the opposite is true to a lesser extent, some who don't really care what Trump believes or does, they just love HIM (in fact, some are willing to ignore what he has said and done).

And I think a lot of independents (who largely decide elections) think that Trump and the Republican Party are joined at the hip, married to each other, pretty much one and the same. I wonder if Trump was at least as much on the ballot this year as was Biden. But Biden is not seen as the Democrat Party (and vise versa), Trump IS seen as The Republican Party (and vise versa). I think this is pulling Republicans down. I suspect this is part of the reason for the horrible performance of Republicans in the 2022 elections.

IMO, Republicans need to take back their party. And embrace it as a party of IDEAS and ISSUES - not a personality cult, not owned by any man. YES! I think there is MUCH that Trump did and holds that is Republican and good! There's no need to reject his views SIMPLY because they are his views. But he had his presidency. Let's thank him.... AND MOVE ON.

There is a lot of great talent in the Republican Party! But they are largely overshadowed by the enormous presence of Trump, who is grabbing all the light for himself (and getting away with it). I especially like a Ron DeSantis - Tim Scott ticket. There is virtually no difference in major views between Trump and DeSantis - but a HUGE difference in ego, personality and cult following. Senator Tim Scott also is pretty much identical to trump in views but his personal story, faith and demeanor couldn't be more different. But there are several other senators and governors that are solidly conservative (even popularist) in views who aren't Trump. Pence, for example, holds to exactly the same issues as Trump (no difference on any issue) and is obviously testing the waters.

I'm SURE Trump will run again. His ego won't allow him to do otherwise. And his cult following will make him a major player - perhaps unbeatable. But IMO Republicans would be very wise to pass on him this time. We need to thank him.... AND MOVE ON.




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[Fritz Kobus]

Trump won the 2020 election. The failings this midterm are to a large degree attributable to continued voting fraud. States that tightened up their voting procedures went strongly Republican. States that did not were hi-jacked by the Commies.

 

[Lamb]

Too many people have hate in their hearts for this man, even though their financial statuses were better under his Presidency. He hurt their feelings so now he can't be President ever again.

I agree with the things you said Josiah. We need a new Presidential candidate that all Republicans would want in office, as well as the Independents.

During this mid-term vote, a lot of my Republican friends didn't vote for Republicans and are moving away toward Independents and Libertarians. We're losing important votes.

 

[1689Dave]

You can look at the situation and see all that is wrong. Or you can look thru the situation and see God at work. I see America under God's wrath with a special providence for his people. He always determines the vote and things are just as he would have them.

 

[Lanman87]

Trump won the 2020 election. The failings this midterm are to a large degree attributable to continued voting fraud. States that tightened up their voting procedures went strongly Republican. States that did not were hi-jacked by the Commies.

I don't believe that for a minute. Independents hate Trump and voted accordingly. In the three elections since Trump was elected Republicans have either gotten trounced or historically under performed.

If the Republican party wants to win another election they need to drop Trump Populism and get back to Reagan conservationism like limited government, lower taxes, being tough on crime, and a strong national defense.

No, it is time for Republicans to look somewhere else. Pretty much all of the Trump hand picked candidates that were in competitive races lost this election cycle. And it wasn't because of voting fraud, it was because swing voters can't stand Trump.

 

[Albion]

This is a tricky issue. Trump is controversial and flamboyant. BUT much that has come to be associated with Trump was manufactured by the Democrats, and no one should think that if DeSantis or anyone else is the nominee in 2024 the same thing won't be directed at that person in much the same way.

No matter whom the Republicans nominate, the Democrats will create a ludicrous and trivializing caricature of him or her, including less forgivable allegations such as traitor, knee-jerk liar, white supremacist, sexual predator, and all-around clown. It doesn't matter who the person in their spotlight happens to be. They did it to Bush, to Reagan, and cut their teeth on this stuff by savaging Nixon.

Then the average voter--the proverbial man on the street--will lap it up because, as a people, we have a bad image of politicians to begin with and delight in bringing them down, if only by name-calling. And the message will be driven home on a nightly basis by every late-night TV "comedian."

Trump's office created a list of 100, I think it was, accomplishments of his administration, and they're impressive; but who can name more than a half dozen of these actions? Most of course never were given much recognition by the media. That list is probably still to be found somewhere online, if anyone cares.

That said, political fame is fleeting, and it probably is time for the GOP to look elsewhere. It probably is the case that the adoring crowds are motivated as much by the injustice of him having been cheated (as they see it) out of his second term as they are by the content of his recent speeches. Therefore, it would be best if he announced that he will not be seeking another term, thus allowing the Party to present a fresh face to the public.

If that is what happens, how will Trump be viewed by history? That's hard to say at this time. If things go well for the country, he will probably be seen as an aberration. But if we lose what's left of our liberties, he could be seen as a voice crying in the wilderness or a man ahead of his times. Which version of the future of America seems more likely, do you think?

 

[NewCreation435]

I believe he said he was going to make a big announcement on the 15th, which many are assuming if his announcement that he is running again for President. But, I do agree that the Republican need to move on to someone else. Maybe DeSantis will have a say in this. Pence will probably run as well

 

[Lanman87]

No matter whom the Republicans nominate, the Democrats will create a ludicrous and trivializing caricature of him or her, including less forgivable allegations such as traitor, knee-jerk liar, white supremacist, sexual predator, and all-around clown.

No doubt about that. The problem is that Trump is abrasive, abusive, petty, and arrogant. It is much easier for swing voters to believe the caricature about Trump than it would be about someone who comes across as a decent and caring human being.

Republicans and Democrats don't care if their candidate comes across as decent and caring as long as they have the right policies. However, independents and swing voters care more about personality and demeanor than they do policy.

The key to picking a good candidate is that they have both the right policy and right personality and demeanor.

The two best political candidates of my lifetime have been Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton. They were both likeable and full of charm and wit. Reagan was better at getting his policies implemented but Clinton knew how to say what people wanted to hear in such a way as you believed him (even if he was lying). Clinton's "The Era of Big Government is Over" speech, from a purely political point of view, was a thing of beauty.

 

[Albion]

I believe he said he was going to make a big announcement on the 15th, which many are assuming if his announcement that he is running again for President. But, I do agree that the Republican need to move on to someone else. Maybe DeSantis will have a say in this. Pence will probably run as well

DeSantis seems certain to run, especially after the way Florida voted on Tuesday. Pence is just wasting his time if he thinks he has so much as an outside chance. He might have a future in Indiana politics, but that's about all.

 

[Albion]

No doubt about that. The problem is that Trump is abrasive, abusive, petty, and arrogant. It is much easier for swing voters to believe the caricature about Trump than it would be about someone who comes across as a decent and caring human being.

In my guts, I don't want to disagree with most of what you've pointed to, but what you are describing here is simply to recognize that these are MANUFACTURED images that you are relaying to me.

Every one of the characteristics that you've attributed to Trump applies even more certainly to Biden.

But what is the public saying about the two of them? It's hatred when Trump is the topic, but something much milder in Biden's case. While Biden isn't exactly heralded, Trump continues to be reviled even when he's not in office....yet Biden actually IS everything that you put on your list of Trump's alleged failings.

 

[Josiah]

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I fear that the opinion of Independents and Democrats is correct: The Republican Party has been taken over by Donald Trump; Trump IS the Republican Party and the Republican Party IS Trump. I fear that's true.

If it is, then I doubt anyone has the guts (or ability) to bump Trump. Some may be stupid enough to run against him but they are doomed. We may have to wait for Trump to die before we can take back the Grand Old Party? I don't think Pence, Scott, Noem or Rubio or any other have the guts to challenge Trump.

I suspect DeSantis is the most likely to rise up and challenge him - only because he's got the most attention of any possible challenger and has the least to loose (he was just re-elected as governor of a large and important state). But does he have the guts? Nationally, could he survive as a political figure if he does that? Could Trump not only knock him off but destroy him nationally (we all know that will be Trump's goal)?

But I hope I'm wrong. I hope my fear is misplaced. I sincerely HOPE someone rises up and challenges Trump. And I think it IS possible that the majority of Republicans will embrace that it's time to move past Trump and take back their party. Trump will throw a temper tantrum and declare fraud of course but I think we need to get past him. Not necessarily the views and issues he promoted, but him.




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[Josiah]

Biden actually IS everything that you put on your list of Trump's alleged failings.

@Albion


IMO...

Here's the difference: Biden is seen by Democrats as their puppet. The Party is far to the left of this senile old man, but they are pulling all the strings and old Joe is trying to say what he's suppose to. No one equates Joe with the Democrat Party - which is why his terrible approval ratings had very little impact on Democrats last Tuesday. Biden isn't important.

But for the Republican Party, Trump is the proverbial elephant (sic) in the room. The Party has been taken over by him. He is the Party. The Party is him. As long as the Republican Party exists and Trump exists, the two will be equated for many. Which is why Trump was on the ballot last Tuesday, more so than Biden. Several are ALREADY talking of running against Biden (Newsom is already raising big money for a run)... I think Republicans are shaking in their boots at taking on Trump. Even notice how his two biggest critics (Cruz and Rubio) never even mention him, except (when necessary) to bow before him.

What may be: Biden is just a puppet for the Democratic Party. The Republican Party is just a puppet for Trump. The Democratic Party can easily replace Biden (even ignore him) ... it will be very hard for the Republican Party to replace Trump. But I hope it's possible.




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[Albion]

@Albion


IMO...

Here's the difference: Biden is seen by Democrats as their puppet. The Party is far to the left of this senile old man, but they are pulling all the strings and old Joe is trying to say what he's suppose to. No one equates Joe with the Democrat Party - which is why his terrible approval ratings had very little impact on Democrats last Tuesday. Biden isn't important.

I hear you, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that the President isn't important. And I do not think that the ordinary Democrat voter understands to what extent Biden is the sock puppet of some power brokers behind the throne.

But for the Republican Party, Trump is the proverbial elephant (sic) in the room. The Party has been taken over by him. He is the Party. The Party is him.

But isn't that what it is simply because the legions of Trump supporters make it so? It's not as though Trump staged some sort of coup and imposed himself upon the country against its wishes.

I think Republicans are shaking in their boots at taking on Trump. Even notice how his two biggest critics (Cruz and Rubio) never even mention him, except (when necessary) to bow before him.

Isn't that because those potential candidates are aware of Trump's popularity with Republican voters?

If they are indeed afraid of him, it's not because he will jail them for declaring for the Republican primary elections upcoming. It's obviously because they have serious doubts about their ability to win the majority of the delegates to the 2024 Republican National Convention where the nominee will be chosen.

 

[Josiah]

But isn't that what it is simply because the legions of Trump supporters make it so? It's not as though Trump staged some sort of coup and imposed himself upon the country against its wishes.

Yes! Which is why I still have hope.



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[tango]

Too many people have hate in their hearts for this man, even though their financial statuses were better under his Presidency. He hurt their feelings so now he can't be President ever again.

I agree with the things you said Josiah. We need a new Presidential candidate that all Republicans would want in office, as well as the Independents.

During this mid-term vote, a lot of my Republican friends didn't vote for Republicans and are moving away toward Independents and Libertarians. We're losing important votes.

I think a key thing is appealing to moderate and floating voters. If you lose those then all you have is the tribal voters, in which case you might as well field a turnip and not bother campaigning at all because your tribal voters will still turn out in force.

I still think back to when John McCain nominated Sarah Palin as his running mate. The party faithful cheered but they would have voted for him regardless. The moderate Republicans seemed like they were left less certain about the ticket and the moderate Democrats who typically wouldn't vote Republican but maybe weren't sure about the Obama/Biden ticket were turned off by Palin.

I imagine a larger part of the Republican base would get behind DeSantis, I'm just not sure whether he would have much appeal to the more moderate Democrats who are unhappy with the way the country is going. That said it seems he's made major inroads into the Hispanic communities who evidently like what he is doing, or at least prefer him to the alternatives. If that were repeated nationwide it could easily steal lots of votes from the Democrats.

 

[tango]

But isn't that what it is simply because the legions of Trump supporters make it so? It's not as though Trump staged some sort of coup and imposed himself upon the country against its wishes.

Isn't that because those potential candidates are aware of Trump's popularity with Republican voters?

I suppose the question is whether the "legions" of supporters represent the majority of the party or simply the loudest factions. It's much the same question as asking how many Democrats buy into the woke nonsense and to what extent it's the people shouting the loudest who draw the attention.

I found it quite striking during the 2016 election how many voters didn't care for their own party's candidate. It's no surprise that Republicans hated Clinton and Democrats hated Trump, it was surprising that a lot of Republicans were uneasy about Trump and a lot of Democrats were uneasy about Clinton. It's really not a great sign when each candidate's primary appeal is that they aren't The Other Candidate.

If they are indeed afraid of him, it's not because he will jail them for declaring for the Republican primary elections upcoming. It's obviously because they have serious doubts about their ability to win the majority of the delegates to the 2024 Republican National Convention where the nominee will be chosen.

At which point it would make sense to ask whether the RNC's job is to select someone who appeals to the party faithful or who has a wider appeal to the more moderate voters on both sides, as well as floating voters. The party faithful don't care who is on the ticket - they'll vote straight party line whatever and whoever. If the moderate and floating voters vote for the other guy, or a third party, or simply don't bother showing up at all, that's how elections are lost.

 

[Albion]

I suppose the question is whether the "legions" of supporters represent the majority of the party or simply the loudest factions.

It's pretty hard to argue that they're just the loudest factions. For one thing, Trump brings thousands and thousands of people to his speeches, outdoing every other politician these days. And he endorsed over 170 candidates during this past campaign season, of which only something like 5 lost their races.

It's much the same question as asking how many Democrats buy into the woke nonsense and to what extent it's the people shouting the loudest who draw the attention.

IMHO, that's somewhat different. While many Democrats may not be part of that "woke" movement, it's understood by most of us and the media also that the threat from the "woke" people lies not in their popularity but instead it's in their tactics that are dangerous to our country. That's what makes those people significant.

At which point it would make sense to ask whether the RNC's job is to select someone who appeals to the party faithful or who has a wider appeal to the more moderate voters on both sides, as well as floating voters.

Well, here's a consideration that no one discusses. Over the past quarter century or so, the demand for presidential primaries to be the vehicle for choosing the party nominee became irresistible, and for several reasons.

So now, "democracy" reigns in choosing a nominee and the backroom deals are largely a thing of the past. BUT those backroom dealers did know and took account of which candidate would be the most likely to win in November, not just which one had caught the public's attention, maybe coming out of nowhere.

 

[Lanman87]

In my guts, I don't want to disagree with most of what you've pointed to, but what you are describing here is simply to recognize that these are MANUFACTURED images that you are relaying to me.

That was my opinion about Trump before he ever ran for President. I think that is just the way Trump is. He comes across as vengeful, spiteful, and immature.

 

[Albion]

That was my opinion about Trump before he ever ran for President. I think that is just the way Trump is. He comes across as vengeful, spiteful, and immature.

He does, yes. "Comes across" that way.

But that's mainly in his mannerisms. He is the only president that I know of who gave back all of his salary to the country. He is now several million dollars poorer than before he was elected, I've read. Meanwhile, Obama and others became rich, somehow, by being in Washington, DC!

Trump made a point of contacting and/or visiting victims of tragedy, while Biden seldom will even interrupt his daily schedule (9AM to 3PM, is it?) to make any contact at all.

Trump was always appreciative and respectful of our servicemen and women and the events our country memorializes because of them. Biden, not much...not unless he wants some of them as decoration during one of his televised skreeds. And that's just some of the contrast.

 

[psalms 91]

ok lets look at Trump, no personality. He has been charged in New York for his business, it has been shown conclusively that he at the very least encouraged the Jan 6 riot and as such is guilty of sedition and thus ineligible to hold office and should be tried and put in jail, His closest people have shown how unstable he is mentally as well as shown how he tried to manipulate the vote. Conclusion: This man should never again hold an office