Does prayer change things or does it only change us?

[Arsenios]

Do you take that verse as meaning God will give us anything we want, if we just keep asking often enough?

If God's answer is no, how would you expect to get that answer?

How do you take that verse?


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

During the late 1940's and well into the 1950's Charles Templeton was one of the leading evangelists in North America. He was a contemporary and close friend of Billy Graham and even travelled and roomed with him on joint crusades. Some, at the time, regarded him as a greater evangelist than Graham himself. In 1957, just following his greatest crusade ever, and after a long period of soul searching, he turned his back on his ministry and walked away from it. He said to himself, in effect, “how can I stand here and preach passionately to these people when I know that I am not preaching the truth.”

Charles Templeton wrote in “Farewell to God” --- “According to Christian theology, God is omniscient and exists apart from time. Being omniscient he knows the end from the beginning. But if true, would this not mean that all temporal life is predetermined? If God knows the end from the beginning then nothing is subject to change --- otherwise it would not have been known from the beginning. This being so, prayer cannot possibly change anything and there is no point to it. Apart from its function as worship, prayer is based on the premise that God can be talked into running the universe according to the wishes of a devout person on his knees. But, again, try to imagine the chaos if every devout person's prayers were answered! Belief in the efficacy of prayer is a form of self-delusion. Our real prayers are not what we say while on our knees --- the facile words whispered during a prayer. They are the aspirations, attitudes, and desires that motivate our daily lives. It is easy to prime the pump and have the words gush forth in a torrent of pious phrases but the proof of what we really want, regardless of what we say we want, is evident in the way we live. “

Templeton encountered the weakness in that Evangellism and walked away...
Graham never abandoned his first Love...
He knew it wasn't about words, but was about God...
Templeton had great integrity but subjected God to human logic...

That dog don't hunt...

Here is your answer to Templeton:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fSV9T-rK-E


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Because Jesus' parables and teachings did not generally contain the caveat "unless God doesn't want to".
The only caveats are to obey His commandments and not ask for sinful things.

And He commands us to pray...


Arsenios

 

[tango]

Because Jesus' parables and teachings did not generally contain the caveat "unless God doesn't want to". The only caveats are to obey His commandments and not ask for sinful things.

Sometimes we have to accept that the things we want now aren't good for us. Just as the three-year-old who wants to play with the big knife Daddy uses to cut up the food promises to be careful with it (but needless to say Daddy knows better and doesn't let little Jimmy play with the knife), so if we accept God knows what is best for us we can accept that however good something might seem now it's not good in the long term.

 

[tango]

God knows what you are going to pray for even before you start to pray.
We can't look at God as a genie who grants wishes, Jesus teaches us that we should pray that God forgives us our trespasses as we forgive others, that we should pray against temptations, that we should pray for strength and deliverance.

It's very easy to get into the mindset that God is some kind of cosmic vending machine where you put in the prayers, pull the lever and get exactly what you wanted. You can even call 1-800-BAD-PRAY if you get the wrong thing.

Sadly it doesn't work like that. The lack of a Lamborghini Aventador Roadster on my driveway is living proof of this.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Sometimes we have to accept that the things we want now aren't good for us. Just as the three-year-old who wants to play with the big knife Daddy uses to cut up the food promises to be careful with it (but needless to say Daddy knows better and doesn't let little Jimmy play with the knife), so if we accept God knows what is best for us we can accept that however good something might seem now it's not good in the long term.

The comparison doesn't hold water. Daddy is not an omnipotent being who can stop the knife from harming Jimmy at any moment by just willing it. God is.

 

[tango]

The comparison doesn't hold water. Daddy is not an omnipotent being who can stop the knife from harming Jimmy at any moment by just willing it. God is.

So what do you expect? That if you ask God for something that will harm you you'll get it anyway, complete with as much divine intervention as it takes to stop you harming yourself with it?

 

[MennoSota]

We should simply pray that God's will is done and trust that He knows what that is and we don't always. Sometimes he will change the situation and then sometimes he uses the situation to change us. As a whole, pray is not about what you can get, but about trusting in Him

We can pray within God's will and believe by faith that God will do it.
James 1:5-6
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind.

 

[MennoSota]

1 Samuel 12:23

Moreover, as for me, far be it from me that I should sin against the Lord by ceasing to pray for you, and I will instruct you in the good and the right way.

Samuel considered it a sin if he ceased to pray for the people. What might that tell us regarding prayer?

 

[tango]

How do you take that verse?


Arsenios

I think we need to take it as indicating a benefit to persistence in prayer, not necessarily that we can have anything we ask for if we only ask often enough. It seems very much like the "if you ask anything in my name" verse, that some take to mean we are guaranteed anything we ask for just by tagging "in Jesus' name" on the end of our prayer.

 

[Arsenios]

I think we need to take it as indicating a benefit to persistence in prayer, not necessarily that we can have anything we ask for if we only ask often enough. It seems very much like the "if you ask anything in my name" verse, that some take to mean we are guaranteed anything we ask for just by tagging "in Jesus' name" on the end of our prayer.

Well, it speaks of pestering God with the same issue all the time across a lot of time...
For the Orthodox, this means taking a small prayer and repeating it throughout the day and night...
Or having several small prayers and doing one for a time and then another and another...
A line from the Psalter that resonates might be one of them...

"O God be Gracious unto me the sinner and have Mercy on me..."

"O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have Mercy on me the Sinner..."

"For though I should walk in the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil, for Thou art with me..."

And as we slowly across time keep utterance of these few prayers with us...
As we keep them throughout the day and into the night...
They slowly embed themselves within us by God's Grace...
And we will find that they have become a part of our souls...

And we will find that they slowly become a Treasury of Grace...
Adorning the Temple of God within us...
And we may find ourselves awakening in the night...
And notice we are praying them in our sleep...

And by this action we keep our vigil through the night...
And during the day, when we may forget we are God's...
We are reminded in them of His Ever-Presence...
As we embrace the discipline of prayer within our souls...


Arsenios

 

[tango]

True, although there's a difference between a repeated request that will be granted and a repeated request made entirely for selfish reasons that probably won't be. My desire for a Lamborghini Aventador is unlikely to be met by divine providence since it is hard to see how it would advance God's kingdom.

In more general terms a prayer request that ultimately boils down to "I want" is very different to one that has its ultimate focus on someone else.

 

[Josiah]

Does it have to be one or the other?

Sometimes we pray and things change. Sometimes we pray and we change.

What he said...


But I think prayer has less to do with things than with the relationship.


.

 

[Arsenios]

What he said...


But I think prayer has less to do with things than with the relationship.


.

Well, three relationships are involved:

One's relationship with God...
One's relationship with Neighbor...
One's relationship with demonic rulership in this fallen creation...

We can add that one's relationship with one's self, IF it is Christian, is a relationship of DENIAL, yes??


Arsenios

 

[RichWh1]

Prayer can change both us and things.


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[Lucian Hodoboc]

So what do you expect? That if you ask God for something that will harm you you'll get it anyway, complete with as much divine intervention as it takes to stop you harming yourself with it?

Yes. Or at least a clear explanation of the reason for which the prayer is not answered. I don't necessarily need to know God's entire plan or how things will unfold, but a simple: "petition denied because what you're asking for at this moment will have the following undesirable consequences in the future: ..." would be cool.

 

[tango]

Yes. Or at least a clear explanation of the reason for which the prayer is not answered. I don't necessarily need to know God's entire plan or how things will unfold, but a simple: "petition denied because what you're asking for at this moment will have the following undesirable consequences in the future: ..." would be cool.

It would be cool but it's hard to see how such a detailed response would happen. Sometimes silence needs to be interpreted as "no" or at least "not yet". It's not always easy to tell them apart.