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Do you believe that denominations existed in the fourth century?

MoreCoffee

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In the history of ideas do you think that the concept of denomination existed in the fourth century AD?
 

psalms 91

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Yes and I also believe that the Catholic church is not what at least one here claims
 

Tigger

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Yes they were called non-chalcedon churches.
 

Josiah

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In the history of ideas do you think that the concept of denomination existed in the fourth century AD?

It seems unlikely that any denomination existed before the early 4th Century, when the Roman Empire created one (in its own image) for its own self (it never existed outside the Empire), as a geopolitical/economic/legal entity linking together the thousands of parishes now suddenly legal in the Empire (they thus become owned and operated by the newly formed Roman Church).

Prior to that, Christianity was primary an ILLEGAL and largely underground movement... very, very loosely connected and with no organization (much less denomination!) owning and operating parishes. Customs, languages, even doctrines seem to have varied... things were pretty "loosy goosy". As we would expect in an underground, illegal movement. The Roman Empire changed all that - by first making it legal and then almost immediately making it The Empire Religion and Organization - the State Church. Rome loved (well, Rome was OBSESSED) with POWER, CONTROL, AUTHORITY, CENTRALITY.... "loosey goosey" was the antithesis of anything Roman. Rome wanted as much conformity of teaching and practice as possible - and so the EMPIRE called councils and demanded decisions. The Empire set up it's religion as a mirror image of itself - top down, all about power-control-submission, "lording it over others as the Romans do" as Jesus summerized it. The first denomination was born.

Now.... it is true.... before this, there was a very, very, very informal, unstructed, and rare collaboration. The Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 is an example of Christians at least in some way connecting beyond the congregational level. Paul's collection for the relief of the saints in Jerusalem is another. There were rare, limited, informal areas of connection and cooperation before Rome created the Roman Church for itself, but there's nothing there like a denomination.

Now, More Coffee has claimed that no denomination existed before the year 1200 AD (which of course means the RC one didn't) but I don't agree. A case can be made for none before the early 4th Century but I think there clearly is at least one denomination created then. It was just for the Empire and so not "catholic" in any sense, but I think a case can be made that there was just one Roman one for the Roman Empire created by the Roman Empire for itself. But it split in 451 (actually fragmented).... and again in 1054 (the largest split in all of Christian history).... so there were several denominations before the Reformation came around. And then there were all those churches (in early Ireland for example, in India also) that were not in ANY denomination for centuries.




.
 

MoreCoffee

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In the history of ideas do you think that the concept of denomination existed in the fourth century AD?

Don't know, but from the start there were divisions. I'm from Paul. I'm from Apollos.
 

Tigger

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How about Luke 9:50?
 

MoreCoffee

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How about Luke 9:50?

Are you suggesting that the chap in question in Luke 9:50 was starting a new denomination of christians?
 

MoreCoffee

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Don't know, but from the start there were divisions. I'm from Paul. I'm from Apollos.

Yes, but wasn't saint Paul condemning the Corinthians for having factions like that? It is not as though saint Paul approved of them, right?
 

Tigger

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Are you suggesting that the chap in question in Luke 9:50 was starting a new denomination of christians?

That scripture at least indicates that there was a group invoking the name of Christ to cast out demons yet who weren't associated with the apostles.
 

MoreCoffee

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That scripture at least indicates that there was a group invoking the name of Christ to cast out demons yet who weren't associated with the apostles.

It suggests that there was one chap who was not associated with Jesus.

Luke 9:49-50 John answered, "Master, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he does not follow with us." 50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not forbid him; for he that is not against you is for you."
 

psalms 91

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We know from Acts that the church grew daily and that there was a governing body in Jerusalem not in Rome. The evidence for churchs that are not Catholic is there if one doesnt have a slanted view
 

MoreCoffee

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We know from Acts that the church grew daily and that there was a governing body in Jerusalem not in Rome. The evidence for churchs that are not Catholic is there if one doesnt have a slanted view

Did the Word of Faith religion/denomination/meeting exist in the fourth century?
 

Tigger

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It suggests that there was one chap who was not associated with Jesus.

Luke 9:49-50 John answered, "Master, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he does not follow with us." 50 But Jesus said to him, "Do not forbid him; for he that is not against you is for you."
Then how was he casting out demons?
 

MoreCoffee

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Then how was he casting out demons?

Do you think he was successful?

Mind you, he was doing it while Judaism (the first century variety not the twenty first century version with which we are familiar) was still operating according to God's requirements (with a temple and sacrifices and an Aaronic priesthood with Levite helpers) so maybe he was casting out demons in accord with old covenant practises.
 

Alithis

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We know from Acts that the church grew daily and that there was a governing body in Jerusalem not in Rome. The evidence for churchs that are not Catholic is there if one doesnt have a slanted view

you mean not roman catholic ?

the term catholic .. meaning universal would encapsulate all .. but any that do not submit to the leadership of ROME (ie vatican pope etc ) are not deemd to be a part of THIER church . thius they canot be the true church .

but mostly because there is no man made organisation nor institution that is the true church .
the true church is the hearts of al those in whom the holy Spirit dwells and have been born again of water and of the Spirit .

it is not a building or a denomination,it cant be pinpointed you cant say here it is or there it is . it moves with the Holy Spirit .it is a spiritual body and JESUS is the head of that spiritual body .

any one who claims .it is ehere or there and one other the JESUS is its head .. is then so obviously not the body of Jesus but the body of whom ever is their head .
 

MoreCoffee

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[MENTION=61]Alithis[/MENTION], did your denomination exist in the fourth century AD?
 

Alithis

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i dont have one. or belong to one .i did..but i wanted to obey god and they aernt yet willing to .so i came out from among them.
that is why i make no preference and am willing tk look at any one objectivly in regard to teachibgs that dont agree with the word of God.
 

MoreCoffee

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i dont have one. or belong to one .i did..but i wanted to obey god and they aernt yet willing to .so i came out from among them.
that is why i make no preference and am willing tk look at any one objectivly in regard to teachibgs that dont agree with the word of God.

I see. Then the answer is "no, my religion is no older than I. My religion certainly did not exist in the fourth century AD".
 
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Rens

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Did the Word of Faith religion/denomination/meeting exist in the fourth century?

I suppose there still was Word of Faith teaching, well except the man made parts. They didn't feel the need to turn everything into a denomination in the beginning. 4th century, I think there already was a State church. I know nothing about church history, but heard that they institutionalized it, so they wouldn't be persecuted anymore. Also heard once that the Jewish believers who had Sabbath and such had their own groups.
 
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