Do you agree with the Nicean creed, but disagree with the other decisions at the Council of Nicaea?

[NathanH83]

but in theory the money loaned is taken out of productivity for the loaner, so that productivity is rightfully repaid in the form of interest. It is only when interest is exorbitant that it becomes usury.

That’s not what the Bible says

 

[Lanman87]

You talking about Jamestown, Virginia?

No, I'm talking about in the 1800's as America settled the westward where communities developed into towns and cities almost always the first five things that happened, in no particular order, was a church was built, a general store was started, a bank was started, a pub/tavern/inn was built and a jail was built.

Other important institutions/businesses where a blacksmith, stables, a dentist, a doctor, a newspaper and so forth.

The point is that a bank was and is an important part of the health and growth of communities. So much so that a community without a bank had a very difficult time attracting new people and keep the people they already had from leaving.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

That’s not what the Bible says

It is the economic reality. What the Bible says is said in application to the faith community and would apply to a person truly in need of a loan. Not applicable to working with banks etc.

 

[NathanH83]

It is the economic reality. What the Bible says is said in application to the faith community and would apply to a person truly in need of a loan. Not applicable to working with banks etc.

The Bible says usury is a sin. Nehemiah 5:11 rebukes men for every charging their brethren a 1% interest rate.

It’s so hilariously ridiculous when I see signs that say “Your Hometown Bank”

Hometown Bank????

What blasphemy! This is your hometown? And you’re charging your neighbors in your own community interest on loans? That’s disobedience to God’s law!!!! You’re treating your own community members like strangers and foreigners!!!!!! This is evil!!

 

[NathanH83]

No, I'm talking about in the 1800's as America settled the westward where communities developed into towns and cities almost always the first five things that happened, in no particular order, was a church was built, a general store was started, a bank was started, a pub/tavern/inn was built and a jail was built.

Other important institutions/businesses where a blacksmith, stables, a dentist, a doctor, a newspaper and so forth.

The point is that a bank was and is an important part of the health and growth of communities. So much so that a community without a bank had a very difficult time attracting new people and keep the people they already had from leaving.

Well, I guess the good ol’ American West proves the Bible wrong. You’ve convinced me. Guess I’ll sit back and play the harmonica on my western ranch and enjoy the nostalgia of the old Wild West. Who needs to obey the Bible? The Old West is our role model, not the Bible.

 

[Lanman87]

Well, I guess the good ol’ American West proves the Bible wrong. You’ve convinced me. Guess I’ll sit back and play the harmonica on my western ranch and enjoy the nostalgia of the old Wild West. Who needs to obey the Bible? The Old West is our role model, not the Bible.

The reality is that if you followed the Mosaic Law (which we are not under as Christians) and closed all the banks we would have a huge economic collapse, millions of people would be out of work due to lack of investment capital, millions of retired folks retirement income from CD's and Money Market accounts would go away, crime would increase, and people would go hungry and maybe die. Plus, very few people would be able to purchase a home so landowners could then charge exorbitant rent in which the person would never get any return on investment in the form of increased equity in their home

Which one is following the New Testament command of loving your neighbor. Is it to strictly follow the Mosaic law of not loaning money to fellow "Jews" and causing economic collapse or making sure the economy is stable and growing so that people can work, save, and purchase homes and invest?

Plus the Mosaic law allows for Jews to charge interest to non-Jews. What does that mean in a Christian context? Are we forbidden to charge interest to Christians and Jews but it is okay to charge interest to Muslim and Hindus and Scientologist?

Does it mean Christian's can't have a savings account in a bank? Technically, if you are getting 1% interest from the bank on your Money Market account you are breaking the Mosaic law by charging the bank interest on your deposit (which technically is a loan to the bank).

What about not for profit institutions like Credit Unions which legally can't make a profit and are owned by the members who deposit money at the Credit Union?

Are Christians okay to be members of Credit Unions because any interest they earn can only be used to cover expenses and the rest must be returned to members in the form of lower fees, higher rates of return on savings accounts, and lower interest rates on loans. Or is it a sin to be a member of a Credit Union because the credit union provides car loans, mortgages, and home improvement loans to it's members?

And what about the other economic provisions of the Mosaic Law? Should we have a year of Jubilee every 50 years where everyone gets their property back if they have sold it to someone? It is okay to purchase "male and female slaves" as long as they are not Christians or Jews?

44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. 45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly. Leviticus 25:44-46

If the Mosaic Law was given for Christians in the 21st Century then we need to keep all of it and not pick and choose which laws to keep and which are okay to ignore. We need to give everyone their property back every 50 years and kill people who break the laws that are punishable by death and make sure our slaves are foreign and we only charge interest to foreigners and on and on and on.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

The Bible says usury is a sin. Nehemiah 5:11 rebukes men for every charging their brethren a 1% interest rate.

It’s so hilariously ridiculous when I see signs that say “Your Hometown Bank”

Hometown Bank????

What blasphemy! This is your hometown? And you’re charging your neighbors in your own community interest on loans? That’s disobedience to God’s law!!!! You’re treating your own community members like strangers and foreigners!!!!!! This is evil!!

Then there will be no banks and those wanting to borrow will have a difficult time finding anyone to loan to them because many are in the same boat of not having more than enough to get by week to week. A bank is a business that normally is not part of the Christian church, and therefore rules about brethren to brethren relations do not apply.

 

[NathanH83]

Then there will be no banks and those wanting to borrow will have a difficult time finding anyone to loan to them because many are in the same boat of not having more than enough to get by week to week. A bank is a business that normally is not part of the Christian church, and therefore rules about brethren to brethren relations do not apply.

Actually in big cities like New York and LA, there are Jewish owned organizations which will offer money to buy houses, cars, etc. And because these Jewish owners are strict followers of the Torah, they charge 0% interest.

I’ve looked into it. If the Jews can do it, then so can Christians.

There’s a few in Chicago and Toronto as well. And they loan not just to fellow Jews, but also to anyone in their community who they know and trust.

In this case, Torah following Jews are kinder and more righteous that evangelical Christians.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Actually in big cities like New York and LA, there are Jewish owned organizations which will offer money to buy houses, cars, etc. And because these Jewish owners are strict followers of the Torah, they charge 0% interest.

I’ve looked into it. If the Jews can do it, then so can Christians.

There’s a few in Chicago and Toronto as well. And they loan not just to fellow Jews, but also to anyone in their community who they know and trust.

In this case, Torah following Jews are kinder and more righteous that evangelical Christians.

I don't see them as being more righteous since nobody can be righteous apart from faith in Jesus. These Jews are following their law, which is legalism. But show me where the Old Testament rules for loans is put upon the Christian Church. If a person is needy, we are supposed to give, not loan, so I would argure that the New Testament is far kinder than the legal regulations of Old Testament Israel.

 

[NathanH83]

I don't see them as being more righteous since nobody can be righteous apart from faith in Jesus. These Jews are following their law, which is legalism. But show me where the Old Testament rules for loans is put upon the Christian Church. If a person is needy, we are supposed to give, not loan, so I would argure that the New Testament is far kinder than the legal regulations of Old Testament Israel.

I was making the point that people are not necessarily going to have hard time finding loans. There’s plenty of Jews who can find organizations who will give them an interest-free loan. Christians can also develop similar institutions.

Usury was condemned in the Christian church for the first 1500 years of Christianity. Usurers existed anyway, because not everyone was Christian. But at least Christians knew they shouldn’t do it. Now most Christians are completely clueless.

Thankfully the Apple Card can let you buy Apple products with a 0% interest rate. I think Apple does that because they know people can be hesitant to buy since they don’t want to have to pay interest. Apple doesn’t care about interest. They just want to sell their product.

Interestingly enough, the bank the Apple Card works through is Goldman Sachs, which was founded by Jews (both Goldman and Sachs were Jewish) and currently operated mostly by Jews.

Coincidence? Maybe not. The 0% interest rate idea might be an idea they got from the Torah.

Legalistic or not, I’m thankful there are people who care to help people out without slamming them with compounding interest.