Do you agree with the Nicean creed, but disagree with the other decisions at the Council of Nicaea?

[NathanH83]

“Forasmuch as many enrolled among the Clergy, following covetousness and lust of gain, have forgotten the divine Scripture, which says, “He has not given his money upon usury,” (Psalm 15) and in lending money ask the hundredth of the sum [as monthly interest], the holy and great Synod thinks it just that if after this decree any one be found to receive usury, whether he accomplish it by secret transaction or otherwise, as by demanding the whole and one half, or by using any other contrivance whatever for filthy lucre's sake, he shall be deposed from the clergy and his name stricken from the list.”

-First Council of Nicaea, Canon 17. - CHURCH FATHERS: First Council of Nicaea (A.D. 325)

 

[Fritz Kobus]

If the natural rate of interest is 5% and you loan me a $1000 today on the condition that I pay you $1050 one year from now, there is no usury in my opinion because a dollar today is worth a dollar and a nickle a year from now (assuming 5% natural rate of interest), so it is break even.

And that tells you that when you get a measly 1 or 2 percent interest on a savings account at the bank, the government surely should not be taxing that 1 to 2 percent as if it were gain. But that is a different story for a different thread.

 

[NathanH83]

If the natural rate of interest is 5% and you loan me a $1000 today on the condition that I pay you $1050 one year from now, there is no usury in my opinion because a dollar today is worth a dollar and a nickle a year from now (assuming 5% natural rate of interest), so it is break even.

And that tells you that when you get a measly 1 or 2 percent interest on a savings account at the bank, the government surely should not be taxing that 1 to 2 percent as if it were gain. But that is a different story for a different thread.

I think you meant inflation

 

[NathanH83]

If the natural rate of interest is 5% and you loan me a $1000 today on the condition that I pay you $1050 one year from now, there is no usury in my opinion because a dollar today is worth a dollar and a nickle a year from now (assuming 5% natural rate of interest), so it is break even.

And that tells you that when you get a measly 1 or 2 percent interest on a savings account at the bank, the government surely should not be taxing that 1 to 2 percent as if it were gain. But that is a different story for a different thread.

It sounds to me like you’re saying that we need interest in order to keep up with inflation. But what you don’t seem to realize is that interest is what causes inflation. You’ve got the cart before the horse.

It’s like someone saying, “The horse needs to keep running fast in order to keep up with the cart.”

Uh, no. The reason why the cart is moving fast to begin with is because the horse is what’s pulling it. You’ve got it backwards.

 

[NathanH83]

If the natural rate of interest is 5% and you loan me a $1000 today on the condition that I pay you $1050 one year from now, there is no usury in my opinion because a dollar today is worth a dollar and a nickle a year from now (assuming 5% natural rate of interest), so it is break even.

And that tells you that when you get a measly 1 or 2 percent interest on a savings account at the bank, the government surely should not be taxing that 1 to 2 percent as if it were gain. But that is a different story for a different thread.

That’s actually a good point though. The government shouldn’t tax that when you’re not even breaking even. But yea, different story for a different thread.

 

[Lanman87]

I agree that the clergy shouldn't be loan sharks, which is what this was happening in many places and what the council was addressing.

Notice that this directive was specifically to the Clergy.

 

[NathanH83]

I agree that the clergy shouldn't be loan sharks, which is what this was happening in many places and what the council was addressing.

Notice that this directive was specifically to the Clergy.

Who is Ezekiel addressing?

“If he has exacted usury Or taken increase— Shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, He shall surely die; His blood shall be upon him.”
Ezekiel 18:13 - Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 18:13 - New King James Version

Who is Psalm 15 addressing?

“He who does not put out his money at usury, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved.”
Psalm 15:5 - Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 15:5 - New King James Version

 

[NathanH83]

I agree that the clergy shouldn't be loan sharks, which is what this was happening in many places and what the council was addressing.

Notice that this directive was specifically to the Clergy.

Can you show the scripture verse that says church leaders aren’t allowed to practice usury, but laymen are? I don’t see that written in my Bible.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

I think you meant inflation

To put it simply, the natural rate of interest is the time value of money. If I put that dollar to work, it gains. Jesus even refered to such in the parable of the talents.

"..the natural rate of interest is a rate that emerges in the market as a result of borrowing and lending activity and governs the allocation of the economy's resources over time."
More here: Natural and Neutral Rates of Interest in Theory and Policy Formulation | Roger W. Garrison

 

[Fritz Kobus]

It sounds to me like you’re saying that we need interest in order to keep up with inflation. But what you don’t seem to realize is that interest is what causes inflation. You’ve got the cart before the horse.

No because inflation is primarily a function of the government printing excess money and distributing it, which devalues our dollars, and is another way of taxing us. Inflation was restrained when our dollars were 100% backed by gold and silver, but now it is fiat money and the government can print as much of it as they please, something anyone else would be put in federal prison for doing.

More on inflation: Inflation | Ludwig von Mises

If we do not lend with interest, then how does an entrepreneur borrow to build and/or expand a business? When you loan someone money you exclude your own use of it and so some form of compensation is needed to encourage loans. No bank will loan interest free. People will sometimes do that for a friend, but if that person really is a friend, they will do favors in return. Now I suspect the IRS would have some tax code that says if you receive an interest free loan from a friend, then you have to calculate what the going intererst rate is, consider that amount a gift, and pay taxes on it.

The whole system is perverse!

But in my mind, usury (if defined broadly as charging interest) is only wrong if exorbitant rates are charged. In the case of a needy person you are loaning money to (and you are not a financial institution) then I can see where any interest might be considered usury.

 

[Lanman87]

Can you show the scripture verse that says church leaders aren’t allowed to practice usury, but laymen are? I don’t see that written in my Bible.

I was specifically addressing what you quoted from the Council of Nicea. If the question is, do I agree with the Council of Nicea that the clergy shouldn't practice usury? Then my answer is yes, I agree with the Council of Nicea that the Clergy shouldn't practice Usury.

Usury, loaning money at interest, was forbidding in the Mosaic law. Leviticus 25:35-37

But it was only forbidden for Jews to charge interest to other Jews. It was perfectly fine to charge interest to a foreigner. Deuteronomy 23:20

If you are an observant Jew then you are breaking the Mosaic law if you loan money to another Jew and charge them interest.


The New Testament doesn't address Usury much at all other than to acknowledge it exist. In the parable of the talents the man who left talents for his servants admonishes the one who didn't at least invest the talent in the bank so he would have made interest. Matthew 25:27

Having money in the bank is a form of usury as you are letting the bank use your money and they are giving you interest in return.

I think the overriding principle for Christians is to do everything for the Glory of God and for the love of our neighbor. That means, to me at least, to do what I can to help people out of poverty instead of doing things that will keep them in poverty.

There are times when providing a loan to someone can help them out of poverty. I just watched It's a Wonderful Life on Christmas Eve. That is a great allegory of how loans can help people escape poverty. The Bailey Building and Loan would provide low cost loans to the Citizens of Bedford Falls escape from the slum lord, Mr. Potter. The Bailey Building and Loan wasn't getting rich from interest, instead they were using the interest to provide more loans to others who need help.

At any rate, our modern definition of usury is not just loaning money at interest. It is the illegal action or practice of lending money at unreasonably high rates of interest. I believe that is something we all can agree is bad, be it from clergy, an individual, bank, or car title loan company.

 

[NathanH83]

I was specifically addressing what you quoted from the Council of Nicea. If the question is, do I agree with the Council of Nicea that the clergy shouldn't practice usury? Then my answer is yes, I agree with the Council of Nicea that the Clergy shouldn't practice Usury.

Usury, loaning money at interest, was forbidding in the Mosaic law. Leviticus 25:35-37

But it was only forbidden for Jews to charge interest to other Jews. It was perfectly fine to charge interest to a foreigner. Deuteronomy 23:20

If you are an observant Jew then you are breaking the Mosaic law if you loan money to another Jew and charge them interest.


The New Testament doesn't address Usury much at all other than to acknowledge it exist. In the parable of the talents the man who left talents for his servants admonishes the one who didn't at least invest the talent in the bank so he would have made interest. Matthew 25:27

Having money in the bank is a form of usury as you are letting the bank use your money and they are giving you interest in return.

I think the overriding principle for Christians is to do everything for the Glory of God and for the love of our neighbor. That means, to me at least, to do what I can to help people out of poverty instead of doing things that will keep them in poverty.

There are times when providing a loan to someone can help them out of poverty. I just watched It's a Wonderful Life on Christmas Eve. That is a great allegory of how loans can help people escape poverty. The Bailey Building and Loan would provide low cost loans to the Citizens of Bedford Falls escape from the slum lord, Mr. Potter. The Bailey Building and Loan wasn't getting rich from interest, instead they were using the interest to provide more loans to others who need help.

At any rate, our modern definition of usury is not just loaning money at interest. It is the illegal action or practice of lending money at unreasonably high rates of interest. I believe that is something we all can agree is bad, be it from clergy, an individual, bank, or car title loan company.

“ You are not to charge interest to your countrymen: interest on money, food, or anything that may be loaned on interest. You may charge interest to a foreigner, but to your countrymen you shall not charge interest, so that the Lord your God may bless you in all that you undertake in the land which you are about to enter to possess.
Deuteronomy 23:19-20 - Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 23:19-20 - New American Standard Bible

“remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.”
“So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone”
Ephesians 2:12-13,19-20 - Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:12-13, Ephesians 2:19-20 - New American Standard Bible

“And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount. But love your enemies and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil people.”
Luke 6:34-35 - Bible Gateway passage: Luke 6:34-35 - New American Standard Bible

 

[NathanH83]

The New Testament doesn't address Usury much at all other than to acknowledge it exist. In the parable of the talents the man who left talents for his servants admonishes the one who didn't at least invest the talent in the bank so he would have made interest. Matthew 25:27

The New Testament doesn’t address it?

Seems to me that Jesus addressed it when he got a whip and turned over their tables, scattered their coins, and called them a “Den of Thieves”

In Jesus’ parable in Luke 19, when Jesus says “bank” the actual word that he used is the Greek word “trapezo”. That’s a Greek word, G5132, which literally means “table”. So the master is really saying “bank table” or “moneychanger’s table”.

That’s a reference to the same money changers’ tables that Jesus flipped over. Jesus was acknowledging that these people practice usury. And he called them a “den of thieves”.

I think Jesus addressed it pretty good.

 

[Lanman87]

The New Testament doesn’t address it?

Seems to me that Jesus addressed it when he got a whip and turned over their tables, scattered their coins, and called them a “Den of Thieves”

In Jesus’ parable in Luke 19, when Jesus says “bank” the actual word that he used is the Greek word “trapezo”. That’s a Greek word, G5132, which literally means “table”. So the master is really saying “bank table” or “moneychanger’s table”.

That’s a reference to the same money changers’ tables that Jesus flipped over. Jesus was acknowledging that these people practice usury. And he called them a “den of thieves”.

I think Jesus addressed it pretty good.

So do you think banks should be illegal? Do you have a savings account in a bank?

I agree that Jesus was preaching against those taking advantage of people for monetary gain.

And what does this have to do with the Council of Nicea saying the Clergy shouldn't take advantage of the poor for monetary gain (which is what Usury meant at the time of the council)?

 

[NathanH83]

So do you think banks should be illegal? Do you have a savings account in a bank?

I agree that Jesus was preaching against those taking advantage of people for monetary gain.

And what does this have to do with the Council of Nicea saying the Clergy shouldn't take advantage of the poor for monetary gain (which is what Usury meant at the time of the council)?

I believe the Bible. If banks today are disobeying the Bible, then they’re disobeying the Bible. Simple as that. I’m not concerned about whether banks are outlawed. What concerns me is the Christians who are actively involved in disobeying God’s law, all while they think they’re going to Heaven.

Yes, I have both a savings account and a checking. The interest I earned last month was 10 cents. 10 pennies. And honestly, I don’t even want that from them.

 

[atpollard]

as by demanding the whole and one half

“I will loan you $100 to buy groceries, but you need to pay me back $150”

“Thank you, Father.”

[Are you really asking if I think the Nicene Council was wrong to have a problem with that scenario in the Church?]
To be clear, I agree with the Nicene Council that Christian Clergy should not practice usury.

 

[NathanH83]

“I will loan you $100 to buy groceries, but you need to pay me back $150”

“Thank you, Father.”

[Are you really asking if I think the Nicene Council was wrong to have a problem with that scenario in the Church?]
To be clear, I agree with the Nicene Council that Christian Clergy should not practice usury.

I don’t know what you’re quoting there. But demanding anything more than the principal is usury

 

[Fritz Kobus]

I don’t know what you’re quoting there. But demanding anything more than the principal is usury

but in theory the money loaned is taken out of productivity for the loaner, so that productivity is rightfully repaid in the form of interest. It is only when interest is exorbitant that it becomes usury.

 

[Lanman87]

What concerns me is the Christians who are actively involved in disobeying God’s law, all while they think they’re going to Heaven.

I'm concerned about Christians running title loan companies, pawn shops, or credit card companies that are taking advantage of people in need.

I'm not concerned about Christians working at banks, credit unions and saving and loans that provide a legitimate and vital service to a community. There is a reason that when America was settled the first five buildings built in a new town were a church, a general store, a bank, a tavern and a jail. All were vital to the quality of life of the community and important to economic well being of the citizens.

 

[NathanH83]

I'm concerned about Christians running title loan companies, pawn shops, or credit card companies that are taking advantage of people in need.

I'm not concerned about Christians working at banks, credit unions and saving and loans that provide a legitimate and vital service to a community. There is a reason that when America was settled the first five buildings built in a new town were a church, a general store, a bank, a tavern and a jail. All were vital to the quality of life of the community and important to economic well being of the citizens.

You talking about Jamestown, Virginia?