Divine hiddenness

[Jazzy]

If God exists and created miracles why is all evidence hidden? We know the flood didn't happen from geological evidence, so people are forced to either believe it metaphorically or admit god intentionally hid the evidence.

The other examples particularly from the new testament we have no evidence those miracles actually happened, we only have claims that they happened. So why hasn't God given us evidence that lasted the test of time?

 

[tango]

What sort of evidence would you expect to prove something like turning water into wine, 2000 years later?

What sort of evidence is widely accepted in a court of law to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt?

 

[Lamb]

If God exists and created miracles why is all evidence hidden? We know the flood didn't happen from geological evidence, so people are forced to either believe it metaphorically or admit god intentionally hid the evidence.

The other examples particularly from the new testament we have no evidence those miracles actually happened, we only have claims that they happened. So why hasn't God given us evidence that lasted the test of time?

IF God exists?

 

[Lees]

If God exists and created miracles why is all evidence hidden? We know the flood didn't happen from geological evidence, so people are forced to either believe it metaphorically or admit god intentionally hid the evidence.

The other examples particularly from the new testament we have no evidence those miracles actually happened, we only have claims that they happened. So why hasn't God given us evidence that lasted the test of time?

I am not aware of the evidence that the flood didn't happen. I am aware that people don't believe the flood recorded in the Bible didn't happen. Thus I am comfortable in believing the flood occurred just exactly as the Bible says.

Will God hide 'evidence'? I believe He will. Why? Because He is not interested in people coming to Him because He proves Himself to them. As far as believing God exists, God doesn't need to prove Himself to His people. He reveals Himself to His people.

Consider this, many saw the miracles of God and Jesus, and did not believe. Why?

And, we do have evidence that has lasted the test of time...the Bible. The only written Word of God on earth.

Lees

 

[fuddy]

Evidence?

According to current scientific evidence, nearly 14 billion years ago there existed nothing. At all. Not even time and space.

Then WHAM, and all kinds of junk came violently flying out of nowhere, racing outwards in every direction into a cold, black, infinite void.

Rocks, dust, gasses, crap everywhere. As all this physical stuff traveled out over vast distances, it all began gradually cooling down, slowing down, and breaking down into simpler and simpler forms, eventually arriving at a point of complete stasis, silent, cold (-459.67 F), reduced down to its simplest possible atomic structure.

NOT!

Instead, we have Leave it to Beaver reruns, Handels Messiah, AI, frighteningly powerful super computers and nuclear weaponry, people, oceans and land masses filled with an incredible variety of lifeforms, all of which is impossible if the dominant driver of physical things is the Law of Entropy.

There's your evidence.

The Bible refers to the Law of Sin and Death, as well as the Law of Life.

Science only acknowledges the Law of Sin and Death (entropy).
At least they got it half right.

 

[Mercury]

As far as believing God exists, God doesn't need to prove Himself to His people. He reveals Himself to His people.

I submit that revealing himself would equate to proving that he exists which kind of nullifies your assertion that he doesn't want to prove himself.

Consider this, many saw the miracles of God and Jesus, and did not believe. Why?

This needs expanding a little. What is it exactly that the people did not believe? Presumably the people who knew the blind man or the leper could immediately see that those people had been healed. So what exactly didn't they believe? I submit that although they could see a change effected that they didn't believe in Jesus's claims of how it was being done.

I could show you any of a number of card tricks and coin tricks and they would entertain and amaze you. If I said to you that they were being done by "magic" you would of course not believe me. You can still see and appreciate the transformations that are happening before your very own eyes, whilst still knowing in your heart that it is not magic that is at the heart of the trick. It is in fact just my own skill and sleight of hand.

It is my conclusion that Jesus was an alchemist and had the Tree Of Life, Elixir of Life, Philosopher's Stone call it what you will. This special substance is said to effect great transformations and transmutations as well as healing the body of all disease and illness. Countless alchemy documents and treatises attest to these benefits. Those propoerties of the Elixir tie in very well with what the Bible says Jesus did.

Healed sick people, transmuted water into wine (rather than base metal into gold) and so on.

So, even though the people saw the great tricks and transformations that Jesus did, I guess that some of them discerned that he was using something clever rather than using magic or being God and so on.

And, we do have evidence that has lasted the test of time...the Bible. The only written Word of God on earth.

The Bible isn't evidence of anything. It's just a collection of written documents that were written by human beings and that collection itself is only a cherry picked set of the available individual works out there, again cherry picked by human beings. Works that didn't support the narrative that the compilers wanted to peddle (i.e. the divinity of Jesus, being more than just a man) were censored and left out of the Bible. Such includes the Gospels of Philip, Thomas and Mary Magdalene. In fact it's rather silly to treat the Bible as anything but an interesting purposebuilt compilation of a selection of other works which has some important information in it and many useful proverbs and adages for life.


It always gives me a bit of a giggle when people talk of the Bible being the definitive truth of all things and being unassailable.

They talk of a perfect super intelligent God yet fail to realise that even a half-wit who had been told to record some important information in a way that it would last 1000s of years, would never choose parchment or paper as the medium for the job. An all-powerful god would not make such a mistake. He would etch the information on the side of a mountain with lightning or set all the stars in the night sky in certain positions to record the information and so on. These are really quite basic issues the kind of which we should have grown up from by now.
The Bible is a man-made work, a man-made compilation. The sooner we realise and accept this the sooner we can all get on and start looking at the real truth recorded in all the available works.

 

[Lamb]

I submit that revealing himself would equate to proving that he exists which kind of nullifies your assertion that he doesn't want to prove himself.




This needs expanding a little. What is it exactly that the people did not believe? Presumably the people who knew the blind man or the leper could immediately see that those people had been healed. So what exactly didn't they believe? I submit that although they could see a change effected that they didn't believe in Jesus's claims of how it was being done.

I could show you any of a number of card tricks and coin tricks and they would entertain and amaze you. If I said to you that they were being done by "magic" you would of course not believe me. You can still see and appreciate the transformations that are happening before your very own eyes, whilst still knowing in your heart that it is not magic that is at the heart of the trick. It is in fact just my own skill and sleight of hand.

It is my conclusion that Jesus was an alchemist and had the Tree Of Life, Elixir of Life, Philosopher's Stone call it what you will. This special substance is said to effect great transformations and transmutations as well as healing the body of all disease and illness. Countless alchemy documents and treatises attest to these benefits. Those propoerties of the Elixir tie in very well with what the Bible says Jesus did.

Healed sick people, transmuted water into wine (rather than base metal into gold) and so on.

So, even though the people saw the great tricks and transformations that Jesus did, I guess that some of them discerned that he was using something clever rather than using magic or being God and so on.





The Bible isn't evidence of anything. It's just a collection of written documents that were written by human beings and that collection itself is only a cherry picked set of the available individual works out there, again cherry picked by human beings. Works that didn't support the narrative that the compilers wanted to peddle (i.e. the divinity of Jesus, being more than just a man) were censored and left out of the Bible. Such includes the Gospels of Philip, Thomas and Mary Magdalene. In fact it's rather silly to treat the Bible as anything but an interesting purposebuilt compilation of a selection of other works which has some important information in it and many useful proverbs and adages for life.


It always gives me a bit of a giggle when people talk of the Bible being the definitive truth of all things and being unassailable.

They talk of a perfect super intelligent God yet fail to realise that even a half-wit who had been told to record some important information in a way that it would last 1000s of years, would never choose parchment or paper as the medium for the job. An all-powerful god would not make such a mistake. He would etch the information on the side of a mountain with lightning or set all the stars in the night sky is certain positions to record the information and so on. These are really quite basic issues the kind of which we should have grown up from by now.
The Bible is a man-made work, a man-made compilation. The sooner we realise and accept this the sooner we can all get on and start lookig at the real truth recorded in all the available works.
Lees

The first rule stated in our forum is:
Promotion of non-Christian beliefs is not allowed.

You may ask questions, but you aren't to try to talk us out of believing in the one true God.

 

[Mercury]

The first rule stated in our forum is:
Promotion of non-Christian beliefs is not allowed.

Thanks for highlighting.

Since there are numerous groups of Christians/denominations/factions does your rule suggest that it is acceptable for any one of them to promote their particular flavour of Christianity?

So for example would it be ok for a Calvanist to promote Calvinism here?
For a Protestant to promote Protestantism?

If not who decides what should be deemed "Christian belief" and on what authority?

 

[Lamb]

Thanks for highlighting.

Since there are numerous groups of Christians/denominations/factions does your rule suggest that it is acceptable for any one of them to promote their particular flavour of Christianity?

So for example would it be ok for a Calvanist to promote Calvinism here?
For a Protestant to promote Protestantism?

If not who decides what should be deemed "Christian belief" and on what authority?

Our statement of faith is the Nicene Creed. Those who adhere to that and believe in the trinity are allowed to post in the Christian areas of this forum. There will be variations of beliefs, but the basics of Jesus as Savior is true across the board for Christians.

 

[jswauto]

If God exists and created miracles why is all evidence hidden? We know the flood didn't happen from geological evidence, so people are forced to either believe it metaphorically or admit god intentionally hid the evidence.

The other examples particularly from the new testament we have no evidence those miracles actually happened, we only have claims that they happened. So why hasn't God given us evidence that lasted the test of time?

Here's what the Bible says in Mark 4:

10And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

And also in Luke 10:

21In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

2 examples as to why it's might not be in the headlines or on the news at 11.

 

[Edward429451]

If God exists and created miracles why is all evidence hidden? We know the flood didn't happen from geological evidence, so people are forced to either believe it metaphorically or admit god intentionally hid the evidence.

The other examples particularly from the new testament we have no evidence those miracles actually happened, we only have claims that they happened. So why hasn't God given us evidence that lasted the test of time?

Scripture tells us to look to the unseen (2nd Corinthians 4:18) and to have Faith in Him and hope in Him. He wants you to trust Him...and without tangible evidence.

Romans 8:24-27
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.///KJV

His plan! Have faith Brother! You can trust Him. Scripture says that we are allowed to test Him with tithing, and see if the floodgates of heaven are not opened with blessings for you. It says we're allowed to test Him in this one way. So I did it. I had not been paying tithes, I was married for a long time, lol.

When I tested the Lord with tithing, I had to keep is secret from my left hand, if you catch my drift, lol. It was actually fairly easy to conceal because we were self employed as a Furnace & A/C Contractor and I was the one working in the field and collecting the checks. So, job done, swing by the bank, cash the check, sneak by the church and pay tithes, go home and hand her all the rest of it. She never missed any of it! (We were making good money).

And it was absolutely astounding to me. I unequivocally say that, the Lord passed this test with flying colors! My slow season wasn't my slow season any more!

So What happened was I thought originally that, I can't afford to pay tithes...but testing the Lord with Tithes & Offerings taught me that, I can't afford not to tithe! So I pay tithes and offerings still to this day.

It did not give me tangible evidence that I can present, but! I do have my proof, for myself. My testimony of it. But I am not a minister or own an airplane or take donations or any of that. I aint even trying to sell books. So I have no reason to lie. That's the good thing about having this experience. The man with experience will never be at the mercy of the one with Doctrine, lol!

Try it and see Brother. You'll have your evidence.

 

[Edward429451]

If God exists and created miracles why is all evidence hidden? We know the flood didn't happen from geological evidence, so people are forced to either believe it metaphorically or admit god intentionally hid the evidence.

The other examples particularly from the new testament we have no evidence those miracles actually happened, we only have claims that they happened. So why hasn't God given us evidence that lasted the test of time?

Proverbs 25:2
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter..../KJV

You want to find God? Well my experience has shown me that He has a sense of Humor! So he makes it hard for us so we can't see Him (normally). We have to have faith in what is unseen to us. That can be a tough cookie at times. But it gets easier.

You must climb the Mountain of God. And it takes effort from us, to diligently seek Him out. Why should He take that person for His Bride?!
Well, because she is the one that He does like, loves actually. So much so that He actually became a man and died for her that she might live...! Whoa. And this one is the one that keeps on bugging Him, to do this for me do that for me show me...and He says, ahh but you must prove your love for me! (You have to build a resume of trust between you and the Lord). So you accomplish this by immersing yourself in His Word. Read it so much that it overflows into your heart and dont be the one that never calls, oh no, this Bride is the one that wont shut up! And bugs Him in prayer all the time.
I never knew you? Ha! And you make an effort to clean up your aact and stop sinning. You know the difference between right and wrong. Everyone has a conscience! Don't disobey your conscience! The Lord know we love Him, if we obey him. So that means, Not only read the Bible but put it into action in your life. There is so many good life principles in the Word, that, That's what you do.

It really only takes 21 days of inputting something different to your mind to reprogram it. You jeep reading the Word and as it overflows your heart it soaks in and changes what heart you have. I found reacting in new ways to situations that I never reacted that way to that before! It was a little spooky but I felt good! And scripture also says, Pray without ceasing...That's big. But it get easier! I started inviting Jesus to go to work with me instead of saying a prayer in the morning and saying Amen and walking out! I talked to him in the truck all day long while driving from one customers to the next. then I would (leave Him in the truck?) and go in and do the job. It didn't take long, I had enough trouble on one job that I went to pray for help, and remembered that I left Him in the truck so to speak, lol! What an idiot I was. I invited Him to the jobsite and He fixed that thing right away and everything fell into place. Praise the Lord! I never made that mistake again, lol. You know I wound up laying hands on furnaces & A/C systems sometimes after that. He even fixed one without parts or anything that I couldnt figure out where the problem was! Weird problem! He fixed it. I was gathering up my tools when I had gave up on it and was going to leave without fixing it, sorry sir? WHat do I tell him? And I had just finished packing up my tools and stuff and turned around and there was the customer asking, did you fix it yet? As he reached for the power button and turned it on...The furnace lit up so quick and so smoothly, I was astonished and still catching up to the fact that, it Works now! It didn't just minutes ago. I didnt do anything to it except test for where is the problem? I was there for about 4 hours I think, and it didnt work.

No Brother, I dont leave Him in the truck anymore, or play the radio, lol. (He told me to shut it off!)

But it takes some diligence to show the Lord that your serious about climbing the Mountain of God. and then one day all of a sudden, He will come to you or He will speak to you inside of you, and there will be no denying it because the presence is so strong! So if you invite Him to go with you, remember that He is the one that sticks closer than a Brother, so don't ignore Him, talk to Him. He loves small talk, it's conversation with the one He loves! You, me, every one. It's like He turned up the volume and it's easy to hear Him now.

But be warned, climbing the Mountain of God...gets real steep, real fast. But just, trust Him...and obey. So go to Him with everything. You got your best friend with you! It's real my Friend. He is real. (He even spoke to one time, Audibly!