Divine hiddenness

Lamb

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It just seems silly when there is no room for discussion-- just check a box and you're good.

You had one troll do just that-- @VeritatisVerba stated in one thread (authored himself under the name -staff edit of personal information) that he doesn't believe in the Trinity at all, but poof! He deleted the thread and most of his posts saying "None of you are worthy of this work."

You have the right to your opinion, but we have our rules to be a safe haven for Christians. Non-trinitarians are put into another usergroup where they are able to post on only certain sections of the forum, because we are a haven for Christians.

Now, if you have further complaints, please take them to Member Admin Center and the owner will be glad to discuss with you, but our rules will not change.
 
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VeritatisVerba

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It just seems silly when there is no room for discussion-- just check a box and you're good.

You had one troll do just that-- @VeritatisVerba stated in one thread (authored himself under the name -staff edit of personal information) that he doesn't believe in the Trinity at all, but poof! He deleted the thread and most of his posts saying "None of you are worthy of this work."
This is a lie. I 100% was not, nor have I ever been, nor am I at all interested in ever being a troll. Some of the management around here might gig you for "flaming" me based on that false accusation, by the way. (Whatever "flaming" even means!)

Secondly, and more importantly, I have most certainly never ever denied the Trinity. In fact, if God is not a Trinity, the whole of Christianity itself is falsified. It is literally that foundational of a doctrine.

Thirdly, I have never posted anything, anywhere about anything under the name Cletus.

No, I will not support that statement about the Trinity (nor any other statement) in anyway whatsoever on this website. Everyone here is far too easily offended. I only pop in from time to time because I'm waiting for the only person I found here worth talking with to respond to an already started conversation. When that discussion concludes I won't be back at all. This post was just me defending myself against your intentionally insulting lies.
 
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MrE

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You have the right to your opinion, but we have our rules to be a safe haven for Christians. Non-trinitarians are put into another usergroup where they are able to post on only certain sections of the forum, because we are a haven for Christians.

Now, if you have further complaints, please take them to Member Admin Center and the owner will be glad to discuss with you, but our rules will not change.

;) No further questions. Keep doing what you are doing and you’ll keep getting what you are getting. Hundreds of threads with zero replies. People who join, but don’t post, and people who post a few times until they lose interest or you run them off.

-but do carry on.
 

VeritatisVerba

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;) No further questions. Keep doing what you are doing and you’ll keep getting what you are getting. Hundreds of threads with zero replies. People who join, but don’t post, and people who post a few times until they lose interest or you run them off.

-but do carry on.
Do you mean run them off by telling intentional lies about them the way you and a handful of your buddies around have done with me?

Oh wait! You must surely be except from the standards you hold everyone else to! Yes, yes - I get it now! Mirrors aren't allowed around here.
 

VeritatisVerba

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For those who might be tempted to believe the lies spread concerning my doctrine....


God is Relational

God is not a solitary being, closed in upon Himself, nor a detached abstraction, He is relational. This is not a trait He acquired when He created the world, nor a mode of interaction He chose to adopt. It is who He is. Relationship is not a consequence of creation; it is a quality of God's eternal being. God did not become relational. He always has been.

Some have argued that if God is truly perfect and self-sufficient, then relationship must be beneath Him. Why would a perfect being need anything outside Himself? This objection sounds pious but reveals a misunderstanding. It treats relationship as a response to deficiency rather than as an expression of fullness. It assumes that to be relational is to be dependent, that to love is to lack, and that to give is to diminish oneself. This is not Christianity, it’s Platonism. The God of Scripture is not a static perfection removed from relationship, He is a living, personal Being whose nature is so rich and complete that it overflows in communion and love. To say that God is relational is not to weaken Him but to glorify Him. It is not to make Him needy but to reveal Him as the source of all goodness.

This truth becomes clear when we consider that God is Triune. He did not exist as a solitary essence for all eternity. From everlasting to everlasting, God has existed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These are not roles He temporarily adopts, but are names that express eternal relationships within the divine being. A father is not a father without a child, nor is a son a son without a father. These terms point beyond metaphor and into the very structure of God's nature. He is not a solitary monad, self-contained and impersonal. He is the living God who speaks, who loves, who gives, and who receives all within His triune self, and in so doing provides a coherent answer to one of the oldest moral questions ever posed....

Is something good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good?

If the former, then goodness is arbitrary. If the latter, then goodness is higher than God. If goodness is defined solely by God's commands, then morality is arbitrary. He could just as easily have declared cruelty to be good and kindness to be evil. Yet if God commands something because it is good, then goodness exists as a standard outside of God, which makes Him subject to something higher than Himself. This is known as Euthyphro’s dilemma, and it has unsettled philosophers since Plato wrote it. The strength of the dilemma lies in its presupposition of a unitarian god; a solitary will that either creates morality by decree or submits to it as an external standard. Many theologies have tried to dodge the trap by appealing to mystery or semantics. Only one answers it directly. Only one shows why goodness, love, and righteousness are neither arbitrary nor external, but eternal. It is the triune nature of the Christian God that breaks this binary. God is not a lone authority, He is an eternal fellowship of three Persons, each bearing witness to the others. Goodness is not a divine assertion; it is a divine relationship. As Jesus said, “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not credible” (John 5:31). In God, there is not merely one witness to divine goodness, but Three. This avoids the problem of circular self-justification. The Father testifies of the Son, the Son of the Spirit, and the Spirit of the Father, each of the three bearing witness to the righteousness of the others. The standard of goodness is not externally imposed nor arbitrarily created. It is the eternal, relational consistency of God’s own being. Moral truth is not decided or invented, nor is it imposed from outside. It is descriptive of God’s nature. It is eternal because it is rooted in God's character, and His character does not change.

This is not any sort of abstract or esoteric philosophical indulgence; it is a foundational and necessary truth. If God were not relational in Himself, then love would not be essential to His nature. That would undermine not only moral absolutes but also God’s trustworthiness, His relationality, and ultimately, the very foundation of salvation. If God were not triune, He would have had to create in order to love. That would make love contingent rather than essential to His being. But God did not need to create in order to love. He said, “Let Us make man in Our image” (Genesis 1:26). Not in "My image", but in "Our image". Also, God the Son, the Logos of God, “was in the beginning with God” (John 1:2). There was already relationship. There was already love, joy, and fellowship, and there were three divine Witnesses to it all, which is how Christianity resolves the ancient dilemma. Rather than sidestepping it as other religions do, it exposes the false assumption that morality arises from either command or compliance. In the God of the Bible, there is no gap between what is and what ought to be, because relationship itself bridges the divide. God is righteous because He is relational, He is good because He is love, and He is love because He has never been alone.

God is relational. That is why love is possible and why righteousness is real. Relationship is not an add-on to divinity. It is not an appendage, an afterthought, or an accommodation to human weakness. It is the eternal glory of the living God. Everything else flows from this.

(The above was not copy/pasted from some other author. I wrote it myself, this morning.)
 

Frankj

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A question:

In your view -your cosmology- does God exist within the universe, does the universe exist within God, or is God completely separate and apart from the universe instead of part of it?
 

jswauto

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If God exists and created miracles why is all evidence hidden? We know the flood didn't happen from geological evidence, so people are forced to either believe it metaphorically or admit god intentionally hid the evidence.

The other examples particularly from the new testament we have no evidence those miracles actually happened, we only have claims that they happened. So why hasn't God given us evidence that lasted the test of time?
Here's some "Divine Hiddenness" for you:


 
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jswauto

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For those who might be tempted to believe the lies spread concerning my doctrine....


God is Relational

God is not a solitary being, closed in upon Himself, nor a detached abstraction, He is relational. This is not a trait He acquired when He created the world, nor a mode of interaction He chose to adopt. It is who He is. Relationship is not a consequence of creation; it is a quality of God's eternal being. God did not become relational. He always has been.

Some have argued that if God is truly perfect and self-sufficient, then relationship must be beneath Him. Why would a perfect being need anything outside Himself? This objection sounds pious but reveals a misunderstanding. It treats relationship as a response to deficiency rather than as an expression of fullness. It assumes that to be relational is to be dependent, that to love is to lack, and that to give is to diminish oneself. This is not Christianity, it’s Platonism. The God of Scripture is not a static perfection removed from relationship, He is a living, personal Being whose nature is so rich and complete that it overflows in communion and love. To say that God is relational is not to weaken Him but to glorify Him. It is not to make Him needy but to reveal Him as the source of all goodness.

This truth becomes clear when we consider that God is Triune. He did not exist as a solitary essence for all eternity. From everlasting to everlasting, God has existed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These are not roles He temporarily adopts, but are names that express eternal relationships within the divine being. A father is not a father without a child, nor is a son a son without a father. These terms point beyond metaphor and into the very structure of God's nature. He is not a solitary monad, self-contained and impersonal. He is the living God who speaks, who loves, who gives, and who receives all within His triune self, and in so doing provides a coherent answer to one of the oldest moral questions ever posed....

Is something good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is good?

If the former, then goodness is arbitrary. If the latter, then goodness is higher than God. If goodness is defined solely by God's commands, then morality is arbitrary. He could just as easily have declared cruelty to be good and kindness to be evil. Yet if God commands something because it is good, then goodness exists as a standard outside of God, which makes Him subject to something higher than Himself. This is known as Euthyphro’s dilemma, and it has unsettled philosophers since Plato wrote it. The strength of the dilemma lies in its presupposition of a unitarian god; a solitary will that either creates morality by decree or submits to it as an external standard. Many theologies have tried to dodge the trap by appealing to mystery or semantics. Only one answers it directly. Only one shows why goodness, love, and righteousness are neither arbitrary nor external, but eternal. It is the triune nature of the Christian God that breaks this binary. God is not a lone authority, He is an eternal fellowship of three Persons, each bearing witness to the others. Goodness is not a divine assertion; it is a divine relationship. As Jesus said, “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not credible” (John 5:31). In God, there is not merely one witness to divine goodness, but Three. This avoids the problem of circular self-justification. The Father testifies of the Son, the Son of the Spirit, and the Spirit of the Father, each of the three bearing witness to the righteousness of the others. The standard of goodness is not externally imposed nor arbitrarily created. It is the eternal, relational consistency of God’s own being. Moral truth is not decided or invented, nor is it imposed from outside. It is descriptive of God’s nature. It is eternal because it is rooted in God's character, and His character does not change.

This is not any sort of abstract or esoteric philosophical indulgence; it is a foundational and necessary truth. If God were not relational in Himself, then love would not be essential to His nature. That would undermine not only moral absolutes but also God’s trustworthiness, His relationality, and ultimately, the very foundation of salvation. If God were not triune, He would have had to create in order to love. That would make love contingent rather than essential to His being. But God did not need to create in order to love. He said, “Let Us make man in Our image” (Genesis 1:26). Not in "My image", but in "Our image". Also, God the Son, the Logos of God, “was in the beginning with God” (John 1:2). There was already relationship. There was already love, joy, and fellowship, and there were three divine Witnesses to it all, which is how Christianity resolves the ancient dilemma. Rather than sidestepping it as other religions do, it exposes the false assumption that morality arises from either command or compliance. In the God of the Bible, there is no gap between what is and what ought to be, because relationship itself bridges the divide. God is righteous because He is relational, He is good because He is love, and He is love because He has never been alone.

God is relational. That is why love is possible and why righteousness is real. Relationship is not an add-on to divinity. It is not an appendage, an afterthought, or an accommodation to human weakness. It is the eternal glory of the living God. Everything else flows from this.

(The above was not copy/pasted from some other author. I wrote it myself, this morning.)
When you call upon the Name of the Lord and develop a relationship with Him you quickly realize:

-He is not to busy to have a personal relationship with you!

-He cares about everything and wants to be a part of it no matter how miniscule!

-His Love is beyond our understanding as He pours it out upon us!
 

Can't think of a name

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If God exists and created miracles why is all evidence hidden? We know the flood didn't happen from geological evidence, so people are forced to either believe it metaphorically or admit god intentionally hid the evidence.

The other examples particularly from the new testament we have no evidence those miracles actually happened, we only have claims that they happened. So why hasn't God given us evidence that lasted the test of time?
"If God exists" it starts out with. Well, a person that has been born again doesn't just believe that God exists, they know God exists. So presumably the person that wrote this original post does not know if God exists or not. I think it is perfectly fair to say in response that such a person is not a Christian in the true meaning of the word.

"... and created miracles why is all the evidence hidden" and goes on to talk about the geological record, so I presume this questioning is about the dinosaurs as fossils.

"they have to admit that God intentionally hid the evidence" which is a weird way of juxtaposition from dinosaurs and the geological record previously inferred. So now this person thinks God is an evil baddy.

"New testament we have no evidence those miracles actually happened, we only have claims that they happened" Well, the New Testament is evidence that they happened and the New Testament is not a claim.

"Why hasn't God given us evidence that lasted the test of time?" God has given us evidence that has lasted the test of time - it is called "THE BIBLE".

Reviewing all this I can only come to the conclusion that it was probably written by someone with the intelligence of an 8 year old and it sounds very atheistic in tone. Since this webforum is clear enough in saying Atheists are not welcome here it's pretty easy to see that people who make hit and run posts and don't respond again are not serious and honest people who really are Christians. I mean actual Christians, people that have been born again as Jesus said.
 

jswauto

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A question:

In your view -your cosmology- does God exist within the universe, does the universe exist within God, or is God completely separate and apart from the universe instead of part of it?
Here's a vision from Heaven that may explain some of it:

Worship in Spirit​

As I listened to Wisdom, it was difficult to comprehend anyone, even this great cloud of witnesses, desiring authority or position in His presence. It seemed that in every moment I had spent here, He had become greater in glory and authority, and I knew that my vision of Him was still limited. Just as the universe was obviously expanding at a great pace and the vastness of it was already incomprehensible, our revelation of Him would likewise be expanding for eternity. “How could mere humans ever represent You?” I questioned.

“When My Father moves His little finger, the whole universe trembles. To shake the nations with words does not impress anyone who dwells here. But when even the least of My brethren on earth shows love, it brings joy to My Father’s heart. When even the most humble church sings to My Father with true love in their hearts, He silences all of heaven to listen to them. He knows that one cannot help but to worship when they are beholding His glory here, but when those who are living in such darkness and difficulty sing with true hearts to Him, it touches Him more than all of the myriads of heaven can.

“Many times, the broken notes from earth caused all of heaven to weep with joy as they beheld My Father being touched. A few holy ones struggling to express their adoration for Him has many times caused Him to weep.

Every time I see My brethren touch Him with true worship, it makes the pain and grief I knew on the cross seem like a small price to pay. Nothing brings Me more joy than when you worship My Father. I went to the cross so that you could worship Him through Me. It is in this worship that you, the Father and I are all one.”

Of all that I had yet experienced, the emotion coming from the Lord as He told me this was greater than I had ever experienced. He was not weeping or laughing. His voice was steady, but what He was telling me about worship came from such depths within Him that it was almost more than I could take. I knew that I was hearing the deepest love of the Son of God—to see His Father’s joy. True worship from the embattled, struggling, believers on earth could do this like nothing else could.

For the first time, I now badly wanted to leave that place, even with all of its glory, just to get into even the most dreary little worship service on earth. I was overwhelmed by the fact that we could actually touch the Father. One person who worshiped Him from earth during these dark times meant more to the Father than the millions and millions who worshiped Him in heaven. From earth we could touch His heart at this time like we might never be able to do again! I was so overtaken by this that I did not even realize I had fallen prostrate. I then fell into something like a deep sleep.

I saw the Father. Millions and millions were attending Him. His glory was so great and the power of His presence so awesome that I felt that the whole earth would not have even measured as a grain of sand before Him. When I had once heard His audible voice, I felt like an atom standing before the sun, but when I saw Him, I knew that the sun was like an atom before Him. The galaxies were like curtains around Him. His robe was composed of millions and millions of living stars. Everything in His presence was living—His throne, His crown, His scepter. I knew that I could dwell before Him forever and never cease to marvel; there was no higher purpose in the universe than to worship Him.

Then the Father became intent on one thing. All of heaven seemed to stop and watch. He was beholding the cross.

The Son’s love for His Father which I continued to express through all of the pain and darkness then coming upon Him touched the Father so deeply that He began to quake. When He did, heaven and earth quaked. When the Father closed His eyes, heaven and earth grew dark. The emotion of the Father was so great that I did not think I could have survived if I had beheld this scene for more than the brief moment that I did.

Then I was in a different place, beholding a worship service in a little church building. As sometimes happens in a prophetic experience, I just seemed to know everything about everyone in the battered little room. All were experiencing severe trials in their lives, but they were not even thinking of them here. They were not praying about their needs. They were all trying to compose songs of thanksgiving to the Lord. They were happy, and their joy was sincere.

I saw heaven, and all of heaven was weeping. I then saw the Father again and knew why heaven was weeping.


They were weeping because of the tears in the eyes of the Father. This little group of seemingly beaten down, struggling people had moved God so deeply that He wept. They were not tears of pain, but of joy. When I saw the love that He felt for these few worshipers, I could not contain my own tears.


Nothing I had experienced gripped me more than this scene. Worshiping the Lord on earth was now more desirable to me than dwelling in all of the glory of heaven. I knew that I had been given a message that could help prepare the saints for the battles that remained on earth, but now this did not mean nearly as much to me as trying to convey how we could touch the Father. Genuine adoration expressed by even the most humble believer on earth could cause all of heaven to rejoice, but even more than that, it touches the Father. This is why the angels would rather be given charge over a single believer on the earth than to be given authority over many galaxies of stars.

I saw Jesus standing next to the Father. Beholding the joy of the Father as He watched the little prayer meeting, He turned to me and said, “This is why I went to the cross. Giving My Father joy for just one moment would have been worth it all. Your worship can cause Him joy every day.

Your worship when you are in the midst of difficulties touches Him even more than all of the worship of heaven. Here, where His glory is seen, the angels cannot help but to worship. When you worship without seeing His glory in the midst of your trials, that is worship in Spirit and in truth. The Father seeks such to be His worshipers. Do not waste your trials. Worship the Father, not for what you will receive, but to bring Him joy. You will never be stronger than when you bring Him joy, for the joy of the Lord is your strength.”
 
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