Did Christ die for them that are perishing ?

[brightfame52]

The Calvinist reads John 12:32 as if Jesus said, “I will irresistibly save everyone I died for.” But Jesus actually said, “I will draw all men unto me,” and verse 33 clarifies He's talking about the type of death He would die, not an irresistible inward call.

The problem for Calvinism is that if “draw” means irresistible saving grace, and Jesus draws all men, then everyone would be saved, which even Calvinists deny. So to avoid universalism, they redefine “all men” to mean “all kinds of men” (i.e., the elect from every group), which is not in the text.

Their only options are:

1. Admit Jesus draws all people, which contradicts limited atonement and irresistible grace.
2. Admit not all are drawn, which makes Jesus' statement false.
3. Redefine words until the verse fits their system, which is dishonest exegesis.

Either way, John 12:32 breaks Calvinism. It teaches universal scope, not irresistible effect.

Further, the Greek word helkō primarily means to drag, not to “persuade.” Even when it implies inward influence, Scripture shows people can resist (e.g., Acts 7:51, Matthew 23:37).

The appeal to I Corinthians 15:45 confuses resurrection power with salvation. That passage deals with resurrection bodies, not being born again. Similarly, Romans 8:10 refers to those already in Christ, not how they got there.

Finally, linking “draw” with “faith” through shared root meanings is theological sleight of hand. Faith comes by hearing (Romans 10:17), not by a pre-regenerating zap. Drawing is not equivalent to saving; it is invitation, not compulsion.

Drawing is also giving them the Gift of Faith. And its also actually saving them, converting them

Further, the Greek word helkō primarily means to drag, not to “persuad

Yes it does have that connotation to persuade or win over:

2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.) Strong's Greek: 1670. ἑλκύω (helkó) -- To draw, to drag

And the words "win over" means:

"Win over" is a phrasal verb meaning to persuade someone to support or agree with you, especially when they were previously opposed to your idea or position. It implies successfully influencing someone's opinion or gaining their favor.

 

[VeritatisVerba]

So then you believe in your faith for salvation and not Christ, Christ only made it possible, but your faith saved you actually. All praises to your faith

Do you ever actually respond to the biblical argument people make?

Luke 7:50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.” - Jesus!​

Do you have any real arguments to make or are these truly idiotic word games all you've got?

If the latter, I submit that you've believed a false gospel and are a Christian in name only. You seem not to understand even the most basic precepts of the biblical Christianity. You define justice as it's opposite and you cannot conceive of what righteousness even is. Your god has more in common with a stone idol than with the God of scripture and you entire theological worldview is built on the musings a homosexual Greek philosopher. You're a blind man, babbling in the dark about nothing.

In short, you're boring and lazy. Make a real argument or go find a different hobby.


A question bf52 WILL NOT answer (Well, now that I've said he won't, he might offer something, but don't hold your breath for the straight answer any normal Christian would give you.)....

Did the Creator God become a man and die, spend three days in the grave and then rise from the dead by His own power with a brand new glorified human body that He never had before and retains to this day and forevermore?

 

[VeritatisVerba]

Drawing is also giving them the Gift of Faith. And its also actually saving them, converting them

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Yes it does have that connotation to persuade or win over:

The point is that you didn't and still don't know what you're talking about.

And the words "win over" means:

"Win over" is a phrasal verb meaning to persuade someone to support or agree with you, especially when they were previously opposed to your idea or position. It implies successfully influencing someone's opinion or gaining their favor.

You sound like a cult leader. The passage isn't teaching the nonsense you want to squeeze out of it.

 

[brightfame52]

Grace reigns through Him !

Rom 5:21

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death [through adam], even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

How does Grace reign through Righteousness. The word reign is the greek word basileuō and means:

I.
to be king, to exercise kingly power, to reign
A.
of the governor of a province

B.
of the rule of the Messiah

C.
of the reign of Christians in the millennium


II.
metaph. to exercise the highest influence, to control

Now we all know how effectual death has reigned through the lesser adam, but what man is so ignorant to is how Grace reigns effectual through Christ, how that it opposes successfully that death which reigned through adam !


Now Grace reigns successfully by the Saving and Converting Effects in those Christ died for and redeemed Titus 2:11-14

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The Grace here in Titus 2:11 is describing what it means for Grace to reign through the Righteousness of Christ of Rom 5:21 !

When it[Grace] reigns through Christ, it brings Salvation, it actually converts the one for whom Christ died.

Now I know that this passage has been sorely perverted by antichrist as to mean that all men without exception have been offered Grace or that it has been made available, but now it must be accepted by the freewill of sinful man for it to produce any effects ! Thats a Lie however !

This most blessed passage of scripture actually informs us just how effectual the Grace of God through Christ abounds toward sinners Christ died, it Illustrates the blessed Truth of how the Grace of God through the redemptive work of Christ, and His Righteousness, does reign through Righteousness in the Honor of His Righteousness on their behalf Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[brightfame52]

@VeritatisVerba

Do you ever actually respond to the biblical argument people make?

Yeah, you believe in your faith to save you, not Christ, as far as your own words revealed, Christ made your salvation possible, thats it.

 

[brightfame52]

Saying it doesn't make it so.


The point is that you didn't and still don't know what you're talking about.


You sound like a cult leader. The passage isn't teaching the nonsense you want to squeeze out of it.

You just cannot discern the truth

 

[brightfame52]

@VeritatisVerba

The Calvinist reads John 12:32 as if Jesus said, “I will irresistibly save everyone I died for.”

Thats exactly what He is saying, He draws them UNTO HIM, the ones He was lifted up for. A complementary scripture in the same chapter Jn 12

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Now Jesus Himself is the corn of wheat, and if He dies, it brings forth much fruit, fruit here is salvation, because e died.

 

[VeritatisVerba]

Okay, b52 is now officially on my ignore list. He is intentionally unresponsive and desires only to be an annoyance.

Won't be wasting any more time with him.

Good riddance.

 

[brightfame52]

Was made a Life giving Spirit !

1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The Last Adam was made a Life Giving Spirit, thats what the word quickening means, Life giving, for if we recall, Jesus said on occasions, that His Purpose was to give Life Jn 6:33

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Jn 10:10,28

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

This Life Giving was premised, based on Him putting away their sin debt, by dying the death they deserved for the wages of their sins Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Now understand, their being by nature dead in trespasses and sins, spiritually dead and alienated from the Life of God, is the wages of sin, Death !

Now , its by this paying of their sin debt by His death for them, and He being quickened from the dead after paying their debt 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh[for their sins], but quickened by the Spirit: Because their sin debt was paid in full, See Rom 4:25 also !

Now the word quickened here in 1 Pet 3:18 is the greek word zōopoieō:

I.
to produce alive, begat or bear living young

II.
to cause to live, make alive, give life

And its the same word quickening in 1 Cor 15:45, again meaning to give life, or to cause to live,B.to restore to life

D.of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life

So as being quickened from the dead as their Head and Shepherd, after having put away all causes for them being in death, even Spiritual death of which they were born naturally, having paid their sin penalty, death no more owed by them to God's Law and Justice, they are given Life, Spiritual Life from the dead, which is evidence that their sin debt has been paid, so Justice demands it ! 24

 

[brightfame52]

Was made a Life giving Spirit ! 2

Christ as the quickened Head, having paid the sin death for His dead body, He must give Life to His Own Body, the Church, as the quickened Head, He himself gives Life to every member of His Body, Paul wrote earlier to the Corinthian Believers 1 Cor 12:27

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

So each particular member of His Body will receive quickening from Him 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Their being quickened from the Spiritually dead is legally due unto them because their sin debt has been paid in full, and death of any kind, is due because of the sin debt Rom 6:23

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So the quickening they receive in this life from Spiritual death is the Gift of God through Jesus Christ, the Last Adam their Lord !

Now understand something, If only the Head be quickened, and not each member in particular of His Body, then the quickening is incomplete and so is Justice !

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why do you even quote such outlying ideas, @MoreCoffee? That's not what most evangelical people would say.

I quoted them because. 5. people made that proposition to me, on Christian forums. I also had one person on IRC say The same thing, namely, that The bible is God - by which they mean it is an incarnation of The Word, and by any standard that is a bit heretical.

 

[brightfame52]

It bought all for whom He died with a Price !

1 Cor 6:19-20

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

No doubt these scriptures apply strictly to the believers in Christ, however, Just when were they bought with a Price ? Was it before or after they became believers ? 24

 

[brightfame52]

It set us free from unbelief , a servant of sin !

Christ death was for the purpose of setting free from unbelief/servitude of sin for all whom He died, if it did not produce that result for each of them He died for, it failed the purpose of God. Rom 6:6

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Now even though this was written to believers, it applies to all for whom He died, and God's purpose therein was to set us free from the service of sin and or unbelief ! Thats primarily what being a servant of sin is, simply a unbeliever in the flesh. When Jesus said this Jn 8:34

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

He means no more by it than they are unbelievers, and in servitude to it. Here in Rom 6:6 Paul is saying to and of those Christ died for , that the connection we have with sin in our adamic nature, by which we are imprisoned to sin and unbelief, it has been destroyed, in order that we be no more servants of sin, unbelief, which equates to Jesus having by His death for us, setting us free from it Jn 8:36

36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 24

 

[brightfame52]

It set us free from unbelief , a servant of sin ! 2

Now it is Christ that sets us free from the servitude of sin symptomized by unbelief and dead works of false religion. So if one does not ever come to believe the Gospel, its because they are still being a servant of sin, and if and when they do come to embrace the Gospel, its the evidence that for them, Christ's death hath set them free, that is the effects of His death, it hath liberated them from service to sin, and God should be thanked for that as Paul writes here Rom 6:17

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin or unbelievers, but ye have obeyed/believed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Believing or obeying from the Heart the Gospel is something God should be thanked for ! Not mans idol freewill ! Believing the Doctrine of the Gospel is an act of obeying, as it is indicated here Rom 10:16

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Now the word obeyed in Rom 6:17 and here in Rom 10:16 are the same greek word hypakouō and means:

I.
to listen, to harken
A.
of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)


II.
to harken to a command
A.
to obey, be obedient to, submit to

Paul says that if one obeyed, then God should be Thanked for that Rom 6:17.

The same would apply for Rom 10:9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

That action if performed by us, God should be Thanked !

Antichrist followers would tell us that mans own freewill is responsible for believing from the heart the Doctrine of Christ and His finished work, which is a lie !

Take your pick, either God , Christ should get the Full credit for ones believing the Gospel, or mans freewill gets the credit, or even partial credit, but it cannot be both ! Remember, we must be first set free from the servitude of sin to become a believer ! Does Christ death effects that freedom, liberty or mans freewill ?

 

[brightfame52]

Causes to Live by Faith and why ?

To live by Faith is the same as belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

That word belief is actually the noun Faith, the greek word pistis which is translated faith 239 xs in NT !

Now Faith or belief of the Truth [Salvation] is the result and effect of The Sanctification of the Spirit, which is the result or effect of the Death and or Offering of Christ Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The writer states as a fact, that them who are now believers, had been sanctified by the offering of the body of Christ, which simply means His death also see Heb 2:9 ! This must mean all for whom He tasted death for Heb 2:9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

By that death, or offering of His Body for them, they have been sanctified by it. Now the word sanctified in Heb 10:10 is the greek word hagiazō and means:

I.
to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow

II.
to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
A.
consecrate things to God

B.
dedicate people to God


III.
to purify
A.
to cleanse externally

B.
to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin

C.
to purify internally by renewing of the soul +++++

This above definition is often neglected, overlooked and even denied, and that is, all for whom Christ died, it effects in them, a purification internally, a renewing of the soul, that which Paul refers to here Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This and 2 Thess 2:13 The Sanctification of the Spirit are the exact same thing !

This again is the direct result of the Offering of the Body of Christ Heb 10:10 which is another way of saying His Death or His Blood !

This purification internally results in the belief of the Truth or Faith ! That word sanctified in Heb 10:10 is also in the perfect tense which tense means:

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!") is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time."

The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

Greek Verbs (Shorter Definitions)

So the Truth is this, all for whom Christ died are by it Sanctified and will as a result of it be experiencing spiritual blessings that evidence it, simply based upon the Death of Christ and its meritorious virtue !

Now all this means without a shadow of doubt if we understand God's Truth, that Sanctification of the Spirit resulting in belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13 is the Blessed Effects of Christ's Offering or Death Heb 10:10, in fact if 2 Thess 2:13 does not happen for every one Christ died for, then Heb 10:10 is not true ! 25

 

[brightfame52]

Causes to Live by Faith and why ? 2

Heb 10:10

10 By the which will[will of God] we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The Sanctification here spoken of as a result of the offering of Christ or Death, same thing, its according to the will of God

It guarantees, makes certain or sure that the following happens unto each one Christ died for Heb 10:16-18

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

This happens for sure #1 God will put His Laws into their hearts ! These are Spiritual Laws, #2 He will put them in their Minds !

That reverses what is said here Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

By this He gives them a True Saving Knowledge of God and Christ Jn 17:3

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

#3 It makes certain their remission of sins and Gods non remembrance of them no more !

They shall receive a Knowledge of the same Lk 1:77

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins

Which was accomplished by the Offering of the Body of Christ or His Death Heb 10:10 !

The Covenant Death of Christ effects all these things, as to confirm what Paul writes here Rom 8:32

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

How can God have given us Christ without also giving us Faith to live by Him by ! As it is written, The Just shall live by Faith Rom 1:17 !

 

[brightfame52]

It makes us dead to the Law and sin !

All for whom Christ died, by that death alone , have been made dead to the Law and sin ! Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Now some may say that Paul here is referring to believers, and that is absolutely correct, he is speaking to believers because the Truth of what he is stating can only be true of believers, however it was just as true of believers before they became believers, for the Truth of the matter[being dead to the law] had nothing to do with their believing, except it was the foundation upon why they do and must believe.

Unbelievers whom Christ died for are dead to the Law as to its condemning power, for it cannot condemn them, and neither can sin be charged to them. All this is True, not because they believed, or repented, but because Christ has died for their sins against God's Law and Justice, they are 100% acquitted, and so they are dead to the Law, by the Body of Christ, which is to say His Death for them ! 25

 

[MrE]

Is this a blog?

 

[brightfame52]

It makes us dead to the Law and sin ! 2

Because of the accomplishment of the Body of Christ, that is to say His Death, all for whom who died, before they believe, repent, or obey in any capacity, and even while they are born sinners, disobedient,children of wrath by nature as others Eph 2:3, alientated from the life of God, and enemies in their minds by wicked works Col 1:21,notwithstanding , they are born in this world Dead to the Law of God ! How ? BY THE BODY OF CHRIST ! This is not my opinion, but tru biblical fact Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Now, God had a purpose for that. It was, so that they who are now dead to the Law of God, by Christ's death, it was in order that, or that it may result to the purpose of being married to another, which is Christ ! See before one can be Married to Christ conjugally and Lawfully, their legal husband must be dead, which in this case is the Law of God.

That word married in the original ginomai means:

I come into being, am born, become, come about, happen.

This is the New Birth language, being born again, to come into being, and thats how we become Married to Christ experimentally, by the New Birth, and thats the end result of being dead to the Law by the Body of Christ. Christ's death destroyed the condemning relationship that God's People had under the Law, so that they can legally start a New Fresh Life with their Husband Christ, a Life of Love and Fellowship. Thats why Paul wrote to the Corinthians 1 Cor 1:9

9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thats the intimacy of the Marriage Relationship, Fellowship ! Its the greek word koinónia:

(lit: partnership) (a) contributory help, participation, (b) sharing in, communion, (c) spiritual fellowship, a fellowship in the spirit.

Thats what Marriage is, a Partnership !

Now, with this in Mind, its a must that everyone Christ died for comes into this Partnership with Christ experimentally, if not, it overthrows the purpose of God and the designed end result for Christ having died for them and ending their relationship with the Law ! And this can never be !

 

[brightfame52]

Is this a blog?

No. You understand the post ? You want to discuss it ?