Did Christ die for them that are perishing ?

[Vanguard]

How can God be a saviour of people that go to hell? That's always the issue when this subject comes up. If 1 Tim.4:10 teaches universalism then it clearly contradicts the rest of the Bible. All the quotes you gave except Timothy do not use the word "all" to refer to every single human being ever but in a non-literal sense to refer to saved people. This can be shown through study of context and historical facts relating to Biblical times and terminology used. If you want to argue that the word "All" has no specific attribution but instead can be taken in only one sense of the word, that is hyper-literalistic interpretation which leaves no room for nuance.

So if Timothy 4:10 does teach universalism, your next task is to reconcile that as contradictory to most of the rest of the Bible and especially the New Testament passages that teach there is a hell and people go there and not everybody is or will be saved. If you can do that it would open the floor to much material of interest.

How can God be a Savior of people that go to hell? To answer that question I start off first by saying that God is God over the universe, whether people want Him to be or not. And that's the same with Jesus being the Savior of the world, whether everyone in the world wants Him to be or not.

 

[brightfame52]

Were made Righteous !


All for whom Christ died have been made Righteous, simply by His One Obedience apart from theirs ! Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This being made Righteous by His One Obedience is merely the antithesis or opposite of having been made sinners by ones act of disobedience apart from theirs !

Now Christ's active obedience that issued in His Death, even the Death of the Cross was made up of His doing the Will of God, expressed here Ps 40:7-8

7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

His will was to , in behalf of those Chosen in Him, Isa 42:21

21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Which was what man in the first adam utterly failed to do ! So as a result we read Rom 5:19a

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You see, in Christ's active obedience as the Last Adam on His way to the cross, He performed a absolutely perfect Obedience to God's Law to every commandment and righteous rule of conduct that the Law required of man, in outward conduct and in inward thoughts and every word spoken 1 Pet 2:22

Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Ps 34:13

Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.

His Active Obedience also included all His works , and Miracles His Life from His cradle to the Cross, thats why it is also affirmed that He was Made under the Law Gal 4:4-5

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Now, all of His Active Obedience to God's Will and Law, His Perfect and Spotless Obedience to every precept of it in outward and inward conformity, in thought and tongue, as a Free Gift of Reckoning, it has been charged to the account of for whom He died and so we read Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

That word Righteous dikaios:

I.righteous, observing divine laws
A.
in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
i.
of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined

ii.
innocent, faultless, guiltless

iii.
used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
a.
only Christ truly

B.
in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them


iv.
approved of or acceptable of God

Listen, as free Gift of Imputation, that Active Obedience of Christ, in His Pure and Spotless thinking, feeling and performing wholly in conforming to the Will of God as Per Ps 40:7-8;Heb 10:7

that Active Obedience is given to all for whom He died and represented as they given what was done being represented in Adam, So that's why Rom 5:19 is True, we are made Righteous with that Active Obedience of Christ that He rendered to God's Law and Commandments in our behalf, If He died for us ! 27

 

[brightfame52]

@Vanguard

And that's the same with Jesus being the Savior of the world, whether everyone in the world wants Him to be or not.

Thats false if you saying Christ is the Saviour of them that perish. Its also in my opinion blasphemy against the saving work of Christ.

 

[Can't think of a name]

How can God be a Savior of people that go to hell? To answer that question I start off first by saying that God is God over the universe, whether people want Him to be or not. And that's the same with Jesus being the Savior of the world, whether everyone in the world wants Him to be or not.

I think you could have missed the import of the usage of the word "saviour". If you aren't saved from hell then what are you saved from?

 

[brightfame52]

All for whom Christ died, in His Active Obedience, from the cradle to the Cross, all the requirements of God's Holy Law, that reflect His Purity and Perfections, have been performed in the Lord Jesus Christ, He in His Representative Capacity, Honoured the Law of God for us with Perfect Obedience; Now for all whom He Lived and died as an Representative for, each one of them individually, God the Father reckons upon them as a Free Gift of His Grace, an Unspotted Righteousness that Honored and Obeyed His Law with spotless purity, as they did it themselves Rom 5:17

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

The word gift dórea means:

a (free) gift, a gift (without repayment). The Ideal meaning is that something was bestowed and the recipient came into possession of or acquired it, or it was reckoned upon them, and so it is also written Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

They are freely made Righteous because they have received by Imputation the Free Gift of Righteousness Vs 17 Its a Righteousness that means:

in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God;

Just as Christ kept them ! Jn 15:10

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 27

 

[brightfame52]

More on Active Obedience of Christ !


There is another dimension of importance in the Obedience of Christ for His People/ Sheep, which is a passive obedience, after having satisfied for God the Law Keeping aspect for God's People, there needed to be the obedience unto the Death of the Cross Phil 2:8

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

You see, the Sheep still had sinned already, that is broken God's Law, and this passive obedience to the death of the Cross has to do with Christ, for all His Sheep, bearing their sins and its penalty, Death. They had sinned first in their Federal Natural head Adam even before they had any physical existence, that's what Rom 5:12 reveals and of course they began sinning personally following their physical existence Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So because of that Christ's Obedience cost Him His Life, since He had been made their Surety, He must suffer the Eternal Agony that their sins against God's Law so deserved, He had to become a curse for them that they may go free from any curse Gal 3:13,14

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

By doing this,He secured for them Spiritual Life as Vs 14 states, this is what all for whom He was made a curse for receives :

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


They receive the blessing of Abraham, the Spirit, which is Life from Christ !

They receive the Spirit of Life because Christ's Active and Passive Obedience has been accepted by God for them and now because of Him, they are owed Life, it must be applied to them as effectively as Death was applied to Christ on their behalf ! 27

 

[brightfame52]

Faith to Live and Serve God by !



Its no fluke that the scriptures state emphatically that the Just shall live by Faith Rom 1:17 that being all for whom Christ died, because His death of obedience makes them Just or Righteous Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. or Just ! Thats because the word righteous dikaios means:

just; especially, just in the eyes of God; righteous; the elect (a Jewish idea).

Its translated Just 6 times !

Now since Christ's Obedience makes one Just in the eyes of God, if He died for you, then the promise made to the Just is what ?

Rom 1:17

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Its promised to them all that they shall live and experience a Life of Faith !

So if one does not believe on Christ, it means Christ did not die for them, or else Rom 1:17 and Rom 5:19 are Lies !

But scripture confirms scripture, and the effects of the Obedience of Christ unto death and or the shedding of His Blood, is that those He died for shall Live by Faith and serve the Living God, this also confirmed by Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Look whats in this verse : "How much more shall the blood of Christ purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"

Now if thats not a clear declaration of the effect of the Blood of Christ, I dont know what is ! His Blood shed via His death ensures the purification of conscience from dead works to the serving of the True and Living God, which serving cannot be without Faith, So hence Faith is ensured by the Blood of Christ !

The word serve here, the greek word latreuó :

I serve, especially God, perhaps simply: I worship.

The Blood of Christ ensures True Worship of God ! Remember Paul wrote Phil 3:3

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Guess what ? Thats the effect of the Blood of Christ being shed for him/them ! The serving / worshipping God in the Spirit is the result and effect of Christ's Blood shed for anyone it was shed for !

Now any denial of this Truth, any opposition to it, is antichrist ! Its absolutely impossible for anyone Christ died for ,not to eventually in this Life , begin to live by Faith and serving the True and Living God, else Christ's Blood was not even as effective as that of bulls and goats ! 27

 

[Can't think of a name]

There are definitely lots of Bible verses that suggest that Christ died for everybody. I think it would be just plain dishonest to say there are not or try to re-interpret them through semantics to say things they don't say. Likewise, there are obvious Bible verses that talk about predestination. There is no way to square these passages together other than God knows who is His at the end of time and people have the opportunity to either accept and believe in God or to reject Him. It is evidently unfair to say God is partial where he doesn't give every human a chance to get it right before they die. The Bible in fact says the complete opposite - it says God is not partial, God is impartial. God doesn't change, etc.

If you say you can square the Bible verses about predestination with the ones that say Jesus died for everybody and therefore people have the freedom to choose God or to choose hell, that might be a bit tricky. Nobody is immune from this paradoxical reality that comes from the words of scripture who has actually thought long enough about it. So instead of ruminating on this inscrutable fact wouldn't it be better to be practical in life by helping people to open their mind to the reality of the existence of God first and foremost and then let the chips fall where they may?

 

[Frankj]

If you say you can square the Bible verses about predestination with the ones that say Jesus died for everybody and therefore people have the freedom to choose God or to choose hell, that might be a bit tricky.

I would this would be fundamental to consider since if we don't have the freedom to choose God or Hell there isn't any purpose to Christianity as it has been since the beginning.

Why evangelize and baptize the nations if everything is already pre determined and there is no free will choice involved and how can one who believes he is saved ever actually know that he is and is not just engaging in wishful thinking?

This is not to agree or disagree with anyone, but to examine the personal implications of the idea in respect to what it would mean in relation to other current discussions that are taking place.

 

[Can't think of a name]

I would this would be fundamental to consider since if we don't have the freedom to choose God or Hell there isn't any purpose to Christianity as it has been since the beginning.

Why evangelize and baptize the nations if everything is already pre determined and there is no free will choice involved and how can one who believes he is saved ever actually know that he is and is not just engaging in wishful thinking?

This is not to agree or disagree with anyone, but to examine the personal implications of the idea in respect to what it would mean in relation to other current discussions that are taking place.

If you don't know if you are saved it is because you never experienced God and you never got changed. That doesn't have much to do with the concept of predestination.

 

[Frankj]

How can God be a Savior of people that go to hell? To answer that question I start off first by saying that God is God over the universe, whether people want Him to be or not. And that's the same with Jesus being the Savior of the world, whether everyone in the world wants Him to be or not.

How do you understand the concept of predestination?

 

[brightfame52]

Faith to Live and Serve God by ! 2


Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The Blood of Christ, the Blood He shed for many Matt 26:28, for all of them He did die for, that Blood effects a Power inwardly unto them, which causes them to begin to serve the Living God.

They do partake of the New Covenant Blessings within His Blood, that does affect the inward parts Jer 31:33

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Heb 8:10

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

It is then they can and do begin to serve the Law of God with their Mind and Heart like Paul says here Rom 7:25

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Yes, this serving of the Law of God with His Mind was an effect of the Blood of Christ Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 5:17

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Now who is it that receives the Gift of Righteousness ?

Why its those Christ died for, by His Obedience alone they are made Righteous Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Yes, that being made Righteous is the same as in Vs 17 as receiving the Gift of Righteousness !

Now what is the Promise to those who received the Gift of Righteousness or were made Righteous ? The Promise is :

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

What this means, those who have by the Obedience of Christ, have been made Righteous, they shall receive a New Birth, a New Life, a New Life of Spiritual Victory and Liberty, which consists in a Life of Faith 1 Jn 5:4

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

In order to reign in Life they must have Two things given them, Life Spiritually and Faith. They are made Kings and Priests 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Rev 5:10

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The Main Point of Rom 5:17,is just as the result of the one offence of Adam was death, we begin our earthly and natural life in spiritual death and alienation from God, But likewise and through Jesus Christ, all who are made Righteous Rom 5:19, Shall be made alive to reign in Life ! So if anyone Christ died for does not reign spiritually in Life here on earth, then Christ's death comes to nothing !27

 

[brightfame52]

It causes those He died for to become overcomers !


Rev 12:11

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Here we see that John attributes the Churches Overcoming the devil not by our Faith, but First and foremost by the Blood of the Lamb !

The word overcome nikaó :

I conquer, am victorious, overcome, prevail, subdue.

Now the attributing cause or reason for this overcoming is stated to by by διά the preposition that means:

gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.


of one who is the author of the action as well as its instrument, or of the efficient cause

It could read : "And they overcame him [The Devil] by reason of the Blood of the Lamb "

Its on account of the Blood that we become overcomers by Faith 1 Jn 5:4

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

The Blood of Christ is the reason why that those who Christ died for receive a New Birth of the Spirit by which the Gift or Fruit of Faith accompanies it Gal 5:22 and that God given Faith gives them Victory that overcometh the World, Flesh and devil.

Remember the writer of the Hebrews Letter says that its by the Blood that our conscience is purged from dead works to serve the Living God Heb 9:14

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

You see that ? That right there is an aspect of how the Blood of the Lamb causes us to overcome the dead works of false religion, thats a Victory over the devil, since he causes many to believe lies 1 Tim 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The Blood of Christ is the Primary Cause why God's Elect People cannot remain deceived ! And why Jesus says Matt 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Now all of the Elect by nature are as others born deceived as Paul alludes to here Titus 3:3

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

But Thanks to the Blood of the Lamb, we the Elect cannot remain deceived, we must by the Power and Authority in the Blood of the Lamb be undeceived ! This is something accomplished by the Atonement of Christ !

 

[Vanguard]

How do you understand the concept of predestination?

I am a firm believer of single predestination and not double.

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation comes from His Death !


Its simply amazing how many so called Believers in Christ, they dont even believe that His Death ALONE saved those He died for, which such a belief is essential to Faith in Christ, believing on Him for all of Salvation; in other words, if we dont believe Christ's Death ALONE is what saves a Soul for whom He dies from Death, the Penalty of Sin, that is Death in all of its phases, Spiritual, Eternal, and out of Physical Death if we must die Physically, for all shall not sleep, then quite frankly we dont believe in Christ, that's all to it , we are yet in unbelief, no matter how religious and sincere we may be !

Now there are numerous scriptures that teach God's True People that Christ's death alone saved those He died for, yet at this Time I will Highlight one in particular that is so neglected, which is this One Jn 12:24

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

The Corn of wheat here that falls into the Ground and DIES, signifies Christ's Death Vs 32-33

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

This is all in the same context of Jn 12 ! And if He as that Corn of wheat dies, the result is, " it bringeth forth MUCH Fruit" which is meant by that Salvation, The Salvation of Souls, The Fruit of Life Eternal !

The bringing forth much fruit is the producing of a numerous Offspring or descendants , for the word fruit karpos does mean:

B.the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity

Its related to the Great Prophecy Isa 53:10

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin[Fall into the Ground and die], he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

That word seed zera` means:

D.offspring, descendants, posterity, children

Yes, Jn 12:24 is the same as Isa 53:10, and this offspring receives its Life from Christ 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

And there is no other way to understand Jn 12:24, the verse simply teaches the Eternal Salvation of each and everyone Christ as the Corn of wheat fell into the Ground and died for, Seeing His Seed is the Fruit of His Death, or bringing forth much fruit ! 28

 

[brightfame52]

He finished the Work God gave Him to do !


John 17:4

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Now what exactly was the Work that He finished ? Was it to make Salvation possible ? What about available ? No never, but it was everything needed to be done for the complete Salvation, the Saving of Gods Covenant People Israel, Remember the Promise Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Thats His Work God gave Him to do, to ensure that that Promise comes into frution.

For this cause He was given a Covenant unto the People Isa 42:6-7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

These things constitute their Salvation from sin ! Now Christ the Lord did accomplish this Work, He executes everything needful for everyone of Israel [God's Elect from all Nations] to come into a Saving Knowledge of their Salvation by experience, He finished all things needed to accomplish that Jn 19:30

30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Not one of them shall be Lost. They needed the Spirit to work effectually in their Lives in order for this to be done and accomplished, so that's why after completing the Work of the Cross, God gave Him the Holy Spirit to pour upon all He had been given as a Covenant Head to Acts 2:32-33

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

This act ensures that everyone for whom He died comes into the Saving Knowledge of the Truth 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

And the And the Holy Ghost that Christ sheds upon them effects this outcome 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

The Work of the Spirit through Christ fufills the Will of God the Father expressed in 1 Tim 2:4 !

 

[brightfame52]

He finished the Work God gave Him to do ! 2


Now if this doesn't happen unto all for whom God desires to be saved and come into a Knowledge of the Truth as expressed in 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Then Christ Lied here Jn 17:4

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

And He was delusional and lied here Jn 19:30

30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

That word finished there means:

II.to perform, execute, complete, fulfil, (so that the thing done corresponds to what has been said, the order, command etc.)

God's Commandment from the Work of Christ is Everlasting Life Accomplished Jn 12:50

And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

God is NOT GLORIFIED if Christ did not finish all that needed to be finished that ensured the Execution of the Divine Purpose and Will which to seek and TO SAVE ALL that which was Lost Lk 19:10

10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

Christ has miserably failed if What He finished upon the completion of His Work does not effect that All whom God willed to be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth as Per 1 Tim 2:4, which is to experience Salvation in the belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13 !

 

[brightfame52]

He finished the Work God gave Him to do ! 3


Now it cannot be said enough, unless 1 Tim 2:4 ; Lk 19:10 are performed successfully for all whom God desires it for, then again Christ did not finish the Work the Father gave Him to do as Per He said He did here Jn 17:4

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Now myself and every True Believer does believe Christ accomplished God's Will and desire, and that everyone God desired to be saved experimentally Lk 19:10; 1 Tim 2:4 is saved and shall be saved, and consequently any that are not saved and do remained in a lost state, then obviously they were not of the all of them that God desired to be saved , lest again we charge Christ with failure to Finish His Fathers Work given Him to do ! 28

 

[BruceLeiter]

How can God be a Savior of people that go to hell? To answer that question I start off first by saying that God is God over the universe, whether people want Him to be or not. And that's the same with Jesus being the Savior of the world, whether everyone in the world wants Him to be or not.

@Vanguard, the "not" is the key to the answer to your question. Yes, God wants everyone to come to faith in Jesus as their Savior, and he has his good plans for all events. However, it's just as true that all humans have full responsibility for their whole lives, including their decisions. Joseph says it very well to his brothers, who were very guilty in selling him into slavery, but God brought great good out of it:

Gen 50:19 But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.