Common Figure of Speech?

[rstrats]

Pedrito,
re: "He was in the tomb for three whole days (three days and three nights) just as He said He would be."

And again, that's an issue for a different topic.

 

[rstrats]

Perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.

And that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.

 

[atpollard]

Perhaps someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.

And that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.

... and that someone should not care that whatever evidence you give will be dismissed by “atheist fiat” as another topic, wrong or insufficient.

 

[rstrats]

atpollard,
re: ... and that someone should not care that whatever evidence you give will be dismissed..."

All someone has to do to avoid having their post dismissed is to provide actual examples. As of yet none have been provided.

 

[rstrats]

Someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.

 

[rstrats]

Point #5 in post #1 should be changed to read: "To account for the lack of a 3rd night, there may be some of those mentioned above who say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language."

 

[rstrats]

Perhaps someone new looking in may know of examples.

 

[rstrats]

And again, that "someone new" needs to be someone who believes the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with a 1st day of the week resurrection, and who thinks that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb, and who tries to explain the lack of a 3rd night by saying that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period.

 

[rstrats]

Since it's been awhile, maybe someone new visiting this topic may know of examples.

 

[rstrats]

Point six of the OP should be changed to read: I wonder if anyone who falls in that group of believers could provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred?

 

[Stravinsk]

Actually, the title should be "Examples of Common Figure of Speech"?


1. The Messiah said that He would be three days and three nights in the "heart of the earth"

2. There are those who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.

3. Of those, there are some who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.

4. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights to be involved.

5. To account for the lack of a 3rd night, some of those mentioned above say that the Messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language.

6. I wonder if anyone who falls in that group of believers could provide examples to support that belief; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast or said to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime and/or no part of the night time could have occurred?

What you have run into is typical "Christian" apologetic reaching to make the story fit. Clearly, on the face of it the death/resurrection timeframe is out of whack, and Christians are left with apologists who basically argue that either Christ couldn't count to 3 or was lying (although they won't say the latter) by being deceptively vague.

This is a topic I have looked into over and over and over again, and I believe I have the answer, and it is simply this: A different calendar was being used at the time of Christ, not based on a continually cycling 7-day week we use today, but on weeks starting from moon cycles (what the bible calls "new moon") that are 7 days in length, but change according to each new moon.

It is the only way where the statements "3 days and 3 nights" and "after 3 days" can be literally true at the same time.

Btw, there is an "old testament" prophecy about an entity that would "change times and laws". This appears to have happened with the dominance of the Roman Catholic sect of Christianity early in the first few hundred years after Christ. They specifically targeted Sabbath keepers (not Saturn's day keepers, aka "Saturday") and boast, in their own literature as Sunday being their "mark of authority". 7th Day adventists are familiar with this, but mistakenly think it was just a change of day, rather than a total change in time keeping.

 

[rstrats]

This is a topic I have looked into over and over and over again, and I believe I have the answer, and it is simply this: A different calendar was being used at the time of Christ, not based on a continually cycling 7-day week we use today, but on weeks starting from moon cycles (what the bible calls "new moon") that are 7 days in length, but change according to each new moon.

That would be an issue for a different topic. Perhaps you might start one.

 

[rstrats]

Someone new looking in may know of examples.

 

[rstrats]

Stravinsk,

Have you started a new topic as suggested?

 

[Stravinsk]

Stravinsk,

Have you started a new topic as suggested?

No, and I probably won't. As the topic is closely correlated with the Sabbath issue, and the majority of those calling themselves christians are of the opinion that it's "done away with" along with "pass the pork, please", I don't expect it to gain much traction except to annoy people steeped in their traditions no matter how much confusion they bring.

A child could tell you that 3 days and 3 nights don't fit between Friday evening and dawn/"while it was still dark" Sunday morning but (nearly) all of Christian/Church fellowship regardless of denomination keep the practice as if it does, making Yeshua either a liar or preposterous riddle maker weaving highly time-interpretive stories about the death/burial/resurrection event central to Christian belief.

I don't think most people really want to know. I know if I was a church goer with social ties to my congregation it would probably be one of those rabbit holes marked "danger".

 

[rstrats]

No, and I probably won't. As the topic is closely correlated with the Sabbath issue...

I don't see how. The issue of this topic is the commonality of forecasting or saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur. If someone thinks that it was common practice I'm simply asking for the examples they are using to support that practice.

 

[Stravinsk]

I don't see how. The issue of this topic is the commonality of forecasting or saying that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of a daytime or no part of a night time could occur. If someone thinks that it was common practice I'm simply asking for the examples they are using to support that practice.

It isn't common practice. "Jesus professing" persons ignore this issue or rationalize it away because of tradition. If you "don't see how" this relates to Sabbath then I would assume you are unlikely to have ever been part of a Sunday keeping church, or even a "Saturday" keeping chruch which embraces the Fri/Sun Easter tradition, with personal social ties to that church's members. I was, and understand the issue from a logical viewpoint, and it's reluctance to be addressed from a church community standpoint because I was a member of several such churches with those social connections.

 

[rstrats]

It isn't common practice.

But this topic is directed to anyone who thinks that it was. Any issue other than that should be addressed in a new topic.

.

 

[Awaiting Transport]

I'm 'someone new' here...

I'll jump in with this:

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

So, unless Jesus was lying, it is physically impossible for him to be 3 days AND 3 nights from FriDAY to SunDAY!

We all know that Jesus didn't lie. Neither does the Word of God lie. Period. Take it or leave it. If Jesus or God lied, then throw away your Bible because it must be FULL of lies!

Disclaimer: I am NOT a theologian by any measure. I take what I read and hear and see how it does or does not line up with scripture then decide from there. Nor am I familiar in the least with more than a teeny bit of the 'way of life' in biblical times, both OT and NT. But I do know some of the customs and methods of the days.

In the 23 years I've been saved, I've read, seen, and heard various accounts of why Jesus was NOT crucified on a Friday.

We gentiles all 'know' that morning is the start of the day (midnight) but biblically, the 'day' starts at dusk the evening before. Look at how each day of creation was defined in Genesis:

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
(The following days of creation were similarly described)

The Jews still follow the beginning of each day at dusk.

Here's the law given to Moses regarding the passover:

Exodus 12:1-7
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,
2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
(underlining mine)

As I understand it, the Jewish calendar year starts with the month of Nissan and each month is 29 days corresponding to the new moon. Every couple of years they 'throw in' an extra month to accommodate the difference between the Jewish calendar and the annual calendar based on position of the sun.

So I just now Googled: "when is nissan 1 in 28 ad" and came up with the chart below:

Year	Vernal Equinox	Astronomical New Moon Conjunction	First evening of visible crescent	Date of the first of Nisan	14th day of Nisan (Passover)
		(On date, or first after vernal Equinox)	(Julian calendar. Midnight to midnight)	(Beginning at sundown the evening before...)	(Beginning at sundown the evening before...)

26 A.D.	Fri. Mar. 22, 0*	Sat. Apr. 6, 7 a.m.	Sun. Apr. 7	Mon. Apr. 8	Sun. Apr. 21
27 A.D.	Sun. Mar. 23, 6 a.m.	Wed. Mar. 26, 7 p.m.**	Fri. Mar. 28	Sat. Mar. 29	Fri. Apr. 11
28 A.D.	Mon. Mar. 22, noon	Tues. Apr. 13, 2 p.m.	Wed. Apr. 14	Thurs. Apr.15	Wed. Apr. 28
29 A.D.	Tues. Mar. 22, 6 p.m.	Sat. Apr. 2, 7 p.m.**	Mon. Apr. 4	Tues. Apr. 5	Mon. Apr. 18
30 A.D.	Wed. Mar. 22, 0*	Wed. Mar. 22, 8 p.m.***	Fri. Mar. 24	Sat. Mar. 25	Fri. Apr. 7
31 A.D.	Fri. Mar. 23, 5 a.m.	Tues. Apr. 10, 2 p.m.	Wed. Apr. 11	Thurs. Apr.12	Wed. Apr. 25
32 A.D.	Sat. Mar. 22, 11 a.m.	Sat. Mar. 29, 10 p.m.**	Mon. Mar. 31	Tues. Apr. 1	Mon. Apr. 14
33 A.D.	Sun. Mar. 22, 5 p.m.	Fri. Apr. 17, 9 p.m.**	Sun. Apr. 19	Mon. Apr. 20	Sun. May 3
34 A.D.	Mon. Mar. 22,11 p.m.	Wed. Apr. 7, 2 p.m.	Thurs. Apr. 8	Fri. Apr. 9	Thurs. Apr. 22

Most theologians I've read state that Jesus was born about 4-2 BC (by the Gregorian calendar) and died between 28-32 AD. 30 AD was commonly thought to be the date of His crucifixion, but lately, I've read more about 28 AD. So, that would make Him 30 years old if He was born in 2 BC.

Per verse 6 above, the 14th of Nissan in 28 AD was a Wednesday, as is 31 AD. Either one seems reasonable. As I understand it, burial must be done during daylight hours, even in those days. So, he was crucified on Wednesday and buried BEFORE dusk on Wednesday.
Night 1: Wednesday night
Day 1: Thursday day
Night 2: Thursday night
Day 2: Friday day
Night 3: Friday night
Day 3: Saturday day.
-----------------------------
3 nights + 3 days in the heart of the earth, exactly as Jesus declared in Matthew 12:40.

Saturday???? The Jewish Sabbath???? I'm as stumped as you are.

That clearly disagrees with Matthew's account of His resurrection:

Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

So obviously, He was crucified on a Thursday, not Wednesday or Friday! How can THAT be??? One of my well read and very biblically knowlegable friends of mine says she's read there were actually TWO passovers that year! That would explain the 2nd sacrifice happening on a Thursday. I've also read/heard that due to calendar errors and screwups through the years, the regular (and only) passover sacrifice actually happened on Thursday that year. Which one is right? Maybe there's another reason for the difference of days? I don't know. Regardless...we DO KNOW that the Bible is Gods' inspired, inerrant Word! I figure we'll find out when Jesus died for our sin when we see Him face to face!

So how did 'Good Friday' become the figure of speech as the day of Jesus' death? I've read and/or heard (don't ask me where or when, at age 74, my memory gets worse by the day!) that the Roman Catholic Church invented 'Good Friday' to 'fit' the timing of some pagan god or godess. And similarly, Resurrection Sunday was changed to Easter, again to fit some pagan god or godess worship. Bunnies and Easter eggs are also some of the pagan worship garbage thrown in during the past 2000 years.

Regardless of what day of the week that Jesus died for us, it makes no difference whatsoever to our faith nor our salvation. So this discussion is only an exercise in Bible study and hopefully, increasing our knowledge of Him!

 

[Stravinsk]

@Awaiting Transport

A few comments on your post.

1. All these statements made by Yeshua must be true at the same time concerning death/resurrection time:

A) 3 days and 3 nights
B) After 3 days
C) On the 3rd day

That leaves out any particular day of the week for both crucifixion and resurrection assuming that C does not contradict A/B and is figured another way.

2. We do not know "the jews" are following God's true calendar. This is frequently assumed by Christians, but there are indications even in the bible that things were changed/going to change. Acts 7:43, Amos 5:26 - "Remphan" can be interpreted as "Saturn" - or "Saturn's day" ie: Saturday. Also Daniel predicts that some power will change "times and laws". That could be an indication of calendar change.

3. The English interpretation of Matt 28:1 and all the other resurrection verses is not true to the Greek. It is literally Mia ton Sabbaton. One (missing word: day) of Sabbaths (yes, plural).

If you want to know the true day of the Resurrection, you need only consider the 7 day Creation account in Genesis - and forget about man-named days of the week. What happens on the 3rd day? Is the moon a sign for moedim or not? Is Sabbath not a moedim, and is the moon not a sign?