Church... A word of pagan origin -

[amadeois]

@Lammchen

Terminology like you define it is the problem.

Everybody interpreting it their own way thus not fully agreeing with the other person and thus proper communications suffer.

Example:

John and Robert are good friends since grammar school days and they used to go fishing together to their local pond.

They grew up and went their different ways.

After a few years they contacted each other over the phone and remembered the good old time spent together by the pond.

So they shared on their new fishing adventures and John said that he had caught a seabass that was enormous.

Robert knew John well and remembered that he liked to exagerate things, so he asked him: how big it was in inches and its circumference?

Robert used the word "enormous", so this word to some may mean 15 inches, to other may mean 25 inches, to another 77 inches.

We used "terminologies", let's say WORDS to communicate between ourselves and if we are using different ideas there will never be an AGREEMENT between those trying to communicate.

That is the problem here. Everybody is using their own DEFINITION and there is NO AGREEMENT.

That is the problem with us understanding the word of God.

In this forum, we probably have humans from different countries and foreign languages, so to understand each other here, we are using the English language.

God used mainly 3 languages to convey His instructions to His CREATION:

1. Hebrew
2. Greek
3. Aramaic

Shouldn't we learn and understand those original words to fully understand HIS MESSAGE?

What I see is that instead of trying to agree between ourselves, we are ALL saying that what we say is correct. That is why there are so many denominations, it should be ONLY ONE if everybody was in the same wavelenght.

Is like the members of churches fight because the color of the new carpet doesn't agree with their preference.

Where is the COMMON DENOMINATOR?


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[Josiah]

Where is the COMMON DENOMINATOR?

Scripture.
Ecumenical Creeds: Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed
The Seven Ecumenical Councils.



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[MoreCoffee]

The English word church is derived from Greek. It is a borrowed word. It is not of anglo-saxon origin. It's Greek source means "house of the Lord".

Old English cir(i)ce, cyr(i)ce, related to Dutch kerk and German Kirche, based on medieval Greek kurikon, from Greek kuriakon (dōma) ‘Lord's (house)’, from kurios ‘master or lord’. Compare with kirk.​

 

[amadeois]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]

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[amadeois]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]

There are scriptures that are not the truth.

The next 3 you mentioned came after 325 CE and we're decided by men and not by God. Those decisions went LEFT of the word of God and of His instructions.

I could write 5 books of 300 pages each to show those errors, but I shouldn't do it. Why? You need to know it and discover it yourself because if I tell it to you, you are not going to believe me. I hope if you study the word in DEPTH you'll see the errors that man has done with the ORIGINAL word of God.

One of the things discussed was how to celebrate the Passover. Name changed to Easter, of a pagan origin (Go and find out).
Compare it to what God instructed on HIS BOOK and I hope you'll see the diffetences.

You and ALL OF US should imitate those people living in Berea.

BECOME A BEREAN A YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH AND YOU WIL BE FREE.

GET THE REAL MESSAGE
NOT THE FALSE MESSAGES.

STUDY ONLY THE TRUTH

Peace be with you brother.


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[amadeois]

What I said about proper communications and not communicating properly just got proven by Josiah's post.

I said that the ONLY book that should be trusted is the Bible.

Josiah has a different idea and perception that those things he mentioned are the COMMON DENOMINATOR, only ONE common denominator and not 4.

Scriptures word definition could be vague. There are many scriptures that are not the truth. Did you mean the Bible? If you meant it then use the proper word.

My case in this respect is closed.

A believer of the COMMON DENOMINATOR.

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[Lamb]

I see myself trusting my pastor who DOES know Hebrew and Greek instead of some guy on the internet.

 

[amadeois]

I'm sorry but I have to add a few things to what I see here.

To visionary, you said that God speaks in all languages. I only know He inspired people to write His message on only 3 just mentioned above.

He does understand ALL of them since He is the all knowing but He only used 3 languages.

WHY DIDN'T HE USE ENGLISH, TAGALOG, HINDI, JAPANESE, FRENCH, GERMAN OR ANY OTHER LANGUAGE?

He chose those languages because it was His decision to do it.

Hebrew is a very reach lenguage and it was spoken and written (with very interesting signs) by the descendants of Heber. So He inspired it on the way they knew. He could have done it in English but then the Hebrews would have not received the message.

Why the Greek? Also a very good language that has so many good explanations if YOU STUDY IT to understand it. My eyes got opened when I went to the original language and gave me the answer to what I was looking for. It was the difference between the words "kato" and "exo." These words were used by Matthew and Mark and they explained to me of who was the person that was present there at that time.

To continue with the Greek, it was the common language at that time all around that area. So it had to be Greek and not Korean.

How about the Aramaic?
Jesus spoke Aramaic and some persons say is the language spoken in Heaven.

AREN'T THESE LANGUAGES CHOSEN BY GOD AT THOSE TIMES THE BEST DECISION MADE BY OUR CREATOR????

We don't need to speak them or write them, but WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THEM if we want to understand GOD'S MESSAGE.

THAT IS WHAT GOD WANTS FROM US.

I have found that when I started to ONLY believe HIS WORD, I started to understand HIS MESSAGE.

I have read a lot about other ideas. I believed other ideas that were not from God but when I started to read, understand, comprehend and FOLLOW his Word, my life changed for the best.

SO I LIKE THE TEAM THAT HAS BEEN GIVEN THE SIGN ON YOUR HEAD AND ON YOUR HAND.

May God bless us all.
Peace with you brothers and sisters.

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[Josiah]

There are scriptures that are not the truth.

Then we fundamentally disagree. I accept the words of Scripture as true.

WHY DIDN'T HE USE ENGLISH, TAGALOG, HINDI, JAPANESE, FRENCH, GERMAN?

No one being addressed understood those languages and none of them existed at the time.

Theology is ALWAYS from the original languages.... theologians, pastors, etc. don't use ANY translation in the formation or discussion of doctrine. My pastor NEVER uses a traslation AT ALL - ever. When he leads the Sunday Bible Class, for example, he has his Greek, he uses the orginal words of the original koine Greek. And for OT references, he always has with him his Hebrew OT. I think this is typical. But never.... never.... not ever.... is theology formulated or discussed or debated by theologians or clergy from some translation: it's NEVER been that way, not even before the Reformation. Everyone knows that the original language the inspired penmen used for the OT was Hebrew (with a tiny bit of Aramaic) and for the NT was Koine Greek. I knew that when I was 10.... all Christians know that.





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[Josiah]

What I said about proper communications and not communicating properly just got proven by Josiah's post.

I said that the ONLY book that should be trusted is the Bible.

Josiah has a different idea and perception that those things he mentioned are the COMMON DENOMINATOR, only ONE common denominator and not 4.

I listed them in order. The only one I accept as infallible/unaccountable is Scripture - the others, in order, come below that.

What I reject is the obsession with SELF, ME, INDIVIDUALISM - that what matters, what is authoritative, what is Truth, what is normative, what God is mandated to agree with is whatever SELF (currently) says (whether "self" is an individual person or an individual denomination/sect/cult)... I believe the "common denominator" is not each of the 2.2 billion Christians now alive and each of their current feelings/opinions/theories/drama/inventions... IMO, WE need to look beyond self.





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[amadeois]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]

I'm sorry but you don't make any sense.

You say "What I reject is the obsession with ...". I'm not interested on what you think but on what the word says and that is what we are trying to discuss here.

The theme here was about the word "church."

More Coffee says is of pagan origin. To him everything is pagan and the only church that has the truth is the RCC. Far from it.

Church appears 77 times in the King James Version.

It comes from the Greek G1577 = ekklesia and is defined as:

A gathering of citizens CALLED OUT from their homes into some public place.

IT'S PURPOSE: to deliberate the things of God.

It comes from G1537=ek and from G2564=kale

Ekklesia (the Greek word) appears 118 times in the New Testament, 115 times is translated as church and 3 times as assembly.

If we go to the Old Testament we will get more information on what word was used when they got together and they used an Hebrew word and not a Greek word. Is the Old Testament diferent from the New Testament. Why?

Because Jesus made a NEW COVENANT in the middle of the week. (Go to other postings under The Arguments for Sunday, The 3 days and the 3 nights) There is SO MUCH misunderstanding on the word of God because we are LOUSY students of HIS WORD, not other writings.

I HOPE YOU PEOPLE ARE GETTING MY MESSAGE, I AM ONLY REPEATING WHAT GOD SAID AND I AM NOT TRYING TO ADD ANYTHING NEW LIKE TOO MANY OTHER PEOPLE ARE DOING HERE.

GET TO KNOW THE TRUTH.

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[Josiah]

There are scriptures that are not the truth.


.

Then we fundamentally disagree. I accept the words of Scripture as true.



.

WHY DIDN'T HE USE ENGLISH, TAGALOG, HINDI, JAPANESE, FRENCH, GERMAN?


.

No one being addressed understood those languages and none of them existed at the time.

Theology is ALWAYS from the original languages.... theologians, pastors, etc. don't use ANY translation in the formation or discussion of doctrine. My pastor NEVER uses a traslation AT ALL - ever. When he leads the Sunday Bible Class, for example, he has his Greek, he uses the orginal words of the original koine Greek. And for OT references, he always has with him his Hebrew OT. I think this is typical. But never.... never.... not ever.... is theology formulated or discussed or debated by theologians or clergy from some translation: it's NEVER been that way, not even before the Reformation. Everyone knows that the original language the inspired penmen used for the OT was Hebrew (with a tiny bit of Aramaic) and for the NT
was Koine Greek. I knew that when I was 10.... all Christians know that.


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I'm not interested on what you think but on what the word says and that is what we are trying to discuss here


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Then why should we care what you think? Why should any read anything you post here?


We all know what the Koine Greek word is. We all know what it means. And what you think is - according you - irrelevant and we should not care one bit what you think, you post, you say.

Sure - the word IN MODERN ENGLISH - has other meanings, too. So what? After all, we should not care what you think, say, post.

More Coffee says is of pagan origin

All human words are of human origin. There's not evidence that God invented ANY human language or supplied ANY normative grammar book and dictionary for such.




Pax Christi



- Josiah

 

[amadeois]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]

What day of the week do you meet at chuch?

The day of rest, or
Sunday?



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[MoreCoffee]

...

More Coffee says is of pagan origin. To him everything is pagan and the only church that has the truth is the RCC. Far from it.

...

[MENTION=252]amadeois[/MENTION] - I wrote that "church" is derived from Greek. I said nothing about pagans. You are misrepresenting what I wrote.

 

[tango]

And your thoughts on the article?
-Now posted above-

Not sure what the big deal is. Church is the group of people that happens to meet in a building.

It's curious to see the way some Christians seem to have a near obsession with "getting people into church" at just about any cost, including tactics that border on bait-and-switch, as if this all-powerful God they worship becomes magically impotent the minute someone steps off the premises. But it's probably not helpful to assume that the way the word "church" has come to refer to a building as much as (if not more so, in some quarters) the people who meet within the building implies that Christians as a whole regard the building as being somehow central to the whole thing.

When I stepped away from a church that had gotten into a silly hypercharismatic pattern I didn't attend any church at all for three months because I just wanted to take a break from it all. Attending church had become more of a chore and an endurance contest than anything edifying, so I needed time away from it. I was still quite capable of praying, of reading the Bible etc, I just didn't do it in the context of a building.

One thing it's worth remembering is that if a group of people wants to meet they need a place to meet. The idea of a house church is all well and good but in this day and age where homes are getting ever-smaller it simply isn't always practical to put a couple of dozen people in your living room for a Bible study. Renting a hall might be an option, as long as you don't mind finding out on Saturday that you don't have a place to meet on Sunday because someone double-booked it. Even then people will tend to regard "church" as being "the place we go on a Sunday" rather than "the group of people who gather in the name of Christ".

The church I attended for years before moving undertook a major renovation project, and all the time the leadership was keen to remind the membership that church was the people rather than the building, and that the purpose of the building was to provide a place where we could meet for worship and fellowship.

 

[Josiah]

The Koine Greek word means a gathering, an assembly.... it often indicates the corpus or community of a group of people.


True, in Koine Greek, it doesn 't refer to a building. Or a denomination. But in MODERN ENGLISH, it has gained those additional meanings.


SO WHAT?


:dunno:




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[tango]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]

I'm sorry but you don't make any sense.

You say "What I reject is the obsession with ...". I'm not interested on what you think but on what the word says and that is what we are trying to discuss here.

The theme here was about the word "church."

More Coffee says is of pagan origin. To him everything is pagan and the only church that has the truth is the RCC. Far from it.

Let's not bash the RCC just because MoreCoffee is a Catholic.

I don't see where MC said it was of specifically pagan origin, what I saw was MC showing the origins of the word (it's surely no coincidence that the word "church" is so very similar to the assorted variations of Kirk, Kirke etc found in Dutch, German, Norwegian etc). Many things can be traced back to all sorts of places, if we're so inclined. What does it matter whether or not the word "church" came from pagan origins? It's used on maps to indicate a building where worship is conducted (alongside mosque, temple, synagogue etc) and also used to collectively describe the people who meet to worship, either within the building or elsewhere.
It comes from the Greek G1577 = ekklesia and is defined as:

A gathering of citizens CALLED OUT from their homes into some public place.

IT'S PURPOSE: to deliberate the things of God.

Called out from their homes into some public place like, maybe, a building called a church?

But if using one word to describe two different things is a major issue, maybe we should stop depositing our money in the bit of land beside a river.

I HOPE YOU PEOPLE ARE GETTING MY MESSAGE, I AM ONLY REPEATING WHAT GOD SAID AND I AM NOT TRYING TO ADD ANYTHING NEW LIKE TOO MANY OTHER PEOPLE ARE DOING HERE.

GET TO KNOW THE TRUTH.

Honestly, this sort of shouting that you're only repeating God and we're all lousy students really does nothing to advance your message. None of it answers what a former boss of mine used to call the "so what" test. His question was simple, it's all very well to provide a piece of information but unless you can answer the question "so what?" you're no further forward.

So we've got some study of the origins of the word "church" and the possible conflict between "church" as a building and "church" as a group of people who come together once in a while. So what?

 

[amadeois]

There is a big difference "knowing about Him" or "believing in Him."

People may know the languages very well, but they may not know the meaning of what they have written.

More Coffee said that the word "church" is of pagan origin but he doesn't tell us what is based on.

The word used by Jesus was ekklesia of Greek origin. So the Greeks are all pagans. He might be correct but when we finally UNDERSTAND THE MESSAGE, that word transformed into meaning changes from pagan to sacred. Knowing the word is important but understanding the message is like the "punch line of a joke."

It seams many people are not getting "God's punch line."

BELIEVE IN MY WORDS AND YOU'LL BE FREE.

DO WE UNDERSTAND WHAT FREE MEANS?

I HOPE WE DO.

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[Josiah]

What day of the week do you meet at chuch?

The day of rest, or
Sunday?

I'm lost what that has to do with the Koine Greek word usually translated in to MODERN ENGLISH as "church."

The same day Anglicans typically do - and you declare that you are an Anglican. But I don't declare that Sunday is Saturday or Saturday is Sunday or that anyone says it is (I find that whole Seventh Day argument beyond silly). I find NOTHING in Scripture that states we are permitted to publicly worship God only on X day. But hey, if your Anglican parish disallows worship on Sunday but allows worship on Christmas, Easter, etc. (as long as such never falls on a Sunday), that's fine with me. NO ONE ON THE PLANET says that all Christians are mandated to publicly worship exclusively, solely on Sundays.

And since you declared you don't care what others think or do.... and you don't believe all Scritures are true..... why should we care what you think or your Anglican parish does?


:dunno:




:focus:





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[amadeois]

[MENTION=60]MoreCoffee[/MENTION]

Sorry, I confused you with Josiah.
You said "means house of the Lord."

That is not correct either.

Read my comment #31.

Sorry that I placed word in your mouth. If we are wrong, we should say so and ask forgiveness from the person that was misquoted.

So I ask you to forgive my error.

Peace be with you my brother.


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