Chariot of Fire

[Faith]

The Scripture that talks about Elijah being taken to heaven in a chariot of fire: Fact? Fiction? Supernatural? Miracle? Symbolic? What?

 

[Andrew]

The Scripture that talks about Elijah being taken to heaven in a chariot of fire: Fact? Fiction? Supernatural? Miracle? Symbolic? What?

Literal, remember that there are three heavens, now take into acount that these heavens are "spiritual abodes" but Angels have "footing" on an EARTH (Earth simply means land).
What makes up the heavens? Just stars? Then why doesn't it just read "God made the stars and the earth"?.

Many Christians have this disembodied spiritual view of the afterlife, however angels are very physical beings, God however is described as invisible.. also we know there shall be a new earth and new heavens, a kingdom that comes from Heaven unto the earth (unity), this event would definitely alter the cosmos.

I don't buy into the floating on clouds as spirits view, seems boring.

I also don't want to be misunderstood as suggesting that little green men are going to welcome us into the new age among the galactic federation... Angels and Jesus HAVE supernatural (to our standards) bodies that can appear and dissappear at will, but they are not the spirits of deceased people.

So "Chariot of Fire" or even a "whirlwind" sounds like something physical that impacts the environment around it, loud noise and such.
Was Enoch and Elijah taken up physically? Yes, but how can this be anymore stranger than life itself? The OT was full of signs and miracles, but we are under grace and faith, so it's natural for us to apply natural interpretations. Did God really speak to Moses through a burning bush? Split the sea? Flood the earth?

 

[tango]

The Scripture that talks about Elijah being taken to heaven in a chariot of fire: Fact? Fiction? Supernatural? Miracle? Symbolic? What?

Widely held misconception. Scripture doesn't say Elijah was taken up to heaven in a chariot of fire, the chariot of fire was a distraction and Elijah was taken to heaven in a whirlwind.

 

[Faith]

Widely held misconception. Scripture doesn't say Elijah was taken up to heaven in a chariot of fire, the chariot of fire was a distraction and Elijah was taken to heaven in a whirlwind.

So he wasn’t taken to heaven in the chariot? What was the chariot doing in the Scripture then, anyway?

 

[tango]

So he wasn’t taken to heaven in the chariot? What was the chariot doing in the Scripture then, anyway?

In the time leading up to Elijah being taken to heaven he asked Elisha what he wanted. Elisha wanted a double portion of Elijah's anointing. Elijah said something along the lines of "you ask a lot, but keep your eyes on me the entire time and if you're watching me as I'm taken into heaven you can have it".

Then followed a succession of tests to see if Elisha would leave his master. Finally the chariot came down and Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind. Had Elisha been wowed by the chariot of fire and taken his eyes off his master he wouldn't have got the double anointing.

One message I take away from this is not to be overly wowed by the signs and wonders "ministries" of some in the silly charismatic circles. Focus on what actually matters.

 

[tango]

2 Kings 2:1–12 (AV): And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel. And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho. And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on. And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan. And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

(emphasis is mine)

 

[Josiah]

2 Kings 2:1–12 (AV): And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel. And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho. And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on. And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan. And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

(emphasis is mine)

Correct.

Now, it's okay to ask questions about this event.... why was he named Elijah? Why was he from Gilgal and not Jerusalem? Why a whirlwind and not a desert wind or an east wind? IMO, it's okay to ask questions - just not to appoint self to answer it and then declare that answer correct. I'm often reminded of a frequent comment of my Greek Orthodox friend: "The biggest problem with modern Christians is their inability to shut up."


Blessings

Josiah



.

 

[Faith]

Correct.

Now, it's okay to ask questions about this event.... why was he named Elijah? Why was he from Gilgal and not Jerusalem? Why a whirlwind and not a desert wind or an east wind? IMO, it's okay to ask questions - just not to appoint self to answer it and then declare that answer correct. I'm often reminded of a frequent comment of my Greek Orthodox friend: "The biggest problem with modern Christians is their inability to shut up."


Blessings

Josiah



.

Is this a Protestant site or are there Catholics here? I’m sorry but I just don’t believe what the LCMS teaches about things in the OT and feel uncomfortable attending that church, when feeling the way I do. Because of that, I’ve decided to return to the Catholic Church.
Thank you for your help in answering my questions, but do you all mind if I stay here?

 

[Lamb]

Is this a Protestant site or are there Catholics here? I’m sorry but I just don’t believe what the LCMS teaches about things in the OT and feel uncomfortable attending that church, when feeling the way I do. Because of that, I’ve decided to return to the Catholic Church.
Thank you for your help in answering my questions, but do you all mind if I stay here?

You don't want to be LCMS because of teachings from the OT?

Well, what about Jesus? I would think teachings on Jesus would mean so much more.

This isn't just a Protestant site and we have/had Catholics here. People come and go all the time. We also have other religions represented.

 

[Faith]

You don't want to be LCMS because of teachings from the OT?

Well, what about Jesus? I would think teachings on Jesus would mean so much more.

This isn't just a Protestant site and we have/had Catholics here. People come and go all the time. We also have other religions represented.

I went to Mass and Confession tonight and I still disliked being there. I missed my LCMS church.

I did order a book called Restoring the Truth About Origins, which is a collection of articles published in 2 Volumes (I just ordered Volume 2) at Lulu.com that I‘m hoping will help me believe or understand the creationist perspective better.

Yes the teachings of Jesus are much more important.

Do you believe the OT literally? Like, back to the fiery chariot. Do you believe Elijah really flew off to heaven in a fiery chariot? If so, how was it possible?

Do you believe in evolution? Why? Why not?

 

[Lamb]

I went to Mass and Confession tonight and I still disliked being there. I missed my LCMS church.

I did order a book called Restoring the Truth About Origins, which is a collection of articles published in 2 Volumes (I just ordered Volume 2) at Lulu.com that I‘m hoping will help me believe or understand the creationist perspective better.

Yes the teachings of Jesus are much more important.

Do you believe the OT literally? Like, back to the fiery chariot. Do you believe Elijah really flew off to heaven in a fiery chariot? If so, how was it possible?

Do you believe in evolution? Why? Why not?

I believe that most of the OT is literal because of the way things were written. There are parts of the OT that are poetic and not literal.

I don't think that believing or not believing whether Elijah was taken to heaven should make a difference as to whether Jesus is your Savior who forgives your sin. Does it affect your faith whether you believe one way or the other?

Why would evolution affect how you believe about Jesus? I don't get caught up too much on those little things, and I call them little because they shouldn't get in the way of your focus on the Savior.

 

[Josiah]

Is this a Protestant site or are there Catholics here? I’m sorry but I just don’t believe what the LCMS teaches about things in the OT and feel uncomfortable attending that church, when feeling the way I do. Because of that, I’ve decided to return to the Catholic Church.
Thank you for your help in answering my questions, but do you all mind if I stay here?

Hope 1960,


Of course, all who accept the Nicene Creed may post here....


As for you "reason", may I?

1. You seem to radically misunderstand the LCMS position on the OT. The position of Lutheranism is found NOT in the common opinion of LCMS members on issues such as fave coffee or brats or even music .... or on Donald Trump or even abortion. The position of Lutheranism is found ONLY in the Book of Concord, the Lutheran Confessions. And as a layperson, you are not even ASKED to read all that (or agree with all that) BUT only with Luther's Small Catechism (about 8 pages long). When Confirmed in the LCMS, you are asked if you agree with LUTHER'S SMALL CATECHISM, not if you agree that Donald Trump was the political Messiah or that Abortion is a sin or that the Flood covered every inch of the Earth or whether contemporary hymns are satanic... you will be asked if you agree with one and only one thing: Luther's Small Catechism. So the issue is this? Do you? IF you do, you are perfectly qualified to be LCMS - and you cannot be Catholic. IF you don't, then it's irrelevant what you think about Donald Trump or Noah's Ark or birth control because REGARDLESS of your views on that, you are not qualified to be a Confirmed Lutheran.


2. Certainly you may convert to Catholicism (I went the other way). But the difference has nothing whatsoever to do with varient interpretations of the historicity of OT events. NOTHING. Absolutely nothing whatsoever. They have to do with VERY different views of salvation, of the church, of epistemology and much, much more. If you agree with the 2,865 points of the Catholic Catechism (and THEREFORE repudiate most of Luther's Small Catechism) THEN you are Catholic and not Lutheran. But, brother, this has NOTHING - absolutely nothing whatsoever - to do with Noah's Ark or six day creation or Donald Trump - nothing of which is so much as mentioned (at all) in either the Catholic Catechism (all 800 pages of which - all of which Catholics must "docilicly submit" as unto Christ) or Luther's Small Catechism.




.

 

[Faith]

Hope 1960,


Of course, all who accept the Nicene Creed may post here....


As for you "reason", may I?

1. You seem to radically misunderstand the LCMS position on the OT. The position of Lutheranism is found NOT in the common opinion of LCMS members on issues such as fave coffee or brats or even music .... or on Donald Trump or even abortion. The position of Lutheranism is found ONLY in the Book of Concord, the Lutheran Confessions. And as a layperson, you are not even ASKED to read all that (or agree with all that) BUT only with Luther's Small Catechism (about 8 pages long). When Confirmed in the LCMS, you are asked if you agree with LUTHER'S SMALL CATECHISM, not if you agree that Donald Trump was the political Messiah or that Abortion is a sin or that the Flood covered every inch of the Earth or whether contemporary hymns are satanic... you will be asked if you agree with one and only one thing: Luther's Small Catechism. So the issue is this? Do you? IF you do, you are perfectly qualified to be LCMS - and you cannot be Catholic. IF you don't, then it's irrelevant what you think about Donald Trump or Noah's Ark or birth control because REGARDLESS of your views on that, you are not qualified to be a Confirmed Lutheran.


2. Certainly you may convert to Catholicism (I went the other way). But the difference has nothing whatsoever to do with varient interpretations of the historicity of OT events. NOTHING. Absolutely nothing whatsoever. They have to do with VERY different views of salvation, of the church, of epistemology and much, much more. If you agree with the 2,865 points of the Catholic Catechism (and THEREFORE repudiate most of Luther's Small Catechism) THEN you are Catholic and not Lutheran. But, brother, this has NOTHING - absolutely nothing whatsoever - to do with Noah's Ark or six day creation or Donald Trump - nothing of which is so much as mentioned (at all) in either the Catholic Catechism (all 800 pages of which - all of which Catholics must "docilicly submit" as unto Christ) or Luther's Small Catechism.


I have Luther’s Small Catechism, with Explanation, the book, but where is the part where it’s 8 pages long? I’m kind of lost here. Are you talking about the 14 pages long part of Luther’s Small Catechism with Explanation that is in the front of the book? Does it begin with the 10 Commandments and end with
Christian questions?
.

 

[Faith]

Hope 1960,


Of course, all who accept the Nicene Creed may post here....


As for you "reason", may I?

1. You seem to radically misunderstand the LCMS position on the OT. The position of Lutheranism is found NOT in the common opinion of LCMS members on issues such as fave coffee or brats or even music .... or on Donald Trump or even abortion. The position of Lutheranism is found ONLY in the Book of Concord, the Lutheran Confessions. And as a layperson, you are not even ASKED to read all that (or agree with all that) BUT only with Luther's Small Catechism (about 8 pages long). When Confirmed in the LCMS, you are asked if you agree with LUTHER'S SMALL CATECHISM, not if you agree that Donald Trump was the political Messiah or that Abortion is a sin or that the Flood covered every inch of the Earth or whether contemporary hymns are satanic... you will be asked if you agree with one and only one thing: Luther's Small Catechism. So the issue is this? Do you? IF you do, you are perfectly qualified to be LCMS - and you cannot be Catholic. IF you don't, then it's irrelevant what you think about Donald Trump or Noah's Ark or birth control because REGARDLESS of your views on that, you are not qualified to be a Confirmed Lutheran.


2. Certainly you may convert to Catholicism (I went the other way). But the difference has nothing whatsoever to do with varient interpretations of the historicity of OT events. NOTHING. Absolutely nothing whatsoever. They have to do with VERY different views of salvation, of the church, of epistemology and much, much more. If you agree with the 2,865 points of the Catholic Catechism (and THEREFORE repudiate most of Luther's Small Catechism) THEN you are Catholic and not Lutheran. But, brother, this has NOTHING - absolutely nothing whatsoever - to do with Noah's Ark or six day creation or Donald Trump - nothing of which is so much as mentioned (at all) in either the Catholic Catechism (all 800 pages of which - all of which Catholics must "docilicly submit" as unto Christ) or Luther's Small Catechism.




.

i haven’t read the Catholic Catechism from front to back but I feel confident when I say that I don’t believe it ALL.

 

[tango]

I went to Mass and Confession tonight and I still disliked being there. I missed my LCMS church.

I did order a book called Restoring the Truth About Origins, which is a collection of articles published in 2 Volumes (I just ordered Volume 2) at Lulu.com that I‘m hoping will help me believe or understand the creationist perspective better.

Yes the teachings of Jesus are much more important.

Do you believe the OT literally? Like, back to the fiery chariot. Do you believe Elijah really flew off to heaven in a fiery chariot? If so, how was it possible?

Do you believe in evolution? Why? Why not?

Why do you go back to Elijah going to heaven in a fiery chariot when Scripture clearly says he was taken up in a whirlwind?

If you believe that God created the world by saying "let there be light" and raised Jesus from the dead why is it hard to believe that he could send a whirlwind to take his servant up to heaven?

 

[Faith]

Why do you go back to Elijah going to heaven in a fiery chariot when Scripture clearly says he was taken up in a whirlwind?

If you believe that God created the world by saying "let there be light" and raised Jesus from the dead why is it hard to believe that he could send a whirlwind to take his servant up to heaven?

Because the implication is he and his fiery chariot were taken to heaven in a whirlwind.

 

[Faith]

I’m going to see my pastor on Thursday about all of this, especially my disbelief that Adam was made from clay.
I mean, how can a Person be made from clay? Especially when science tells us there was never a human bottleneck of fewer than 10,000 people on earth?

 

[Lamb]

I’m going to see my pastor on Thursday about all of this, especially my disbelief that Adam was made from clay.
I mean, how can a Person be made from clay? Especially when science tells us there was never a human bottleneck of fewer than 10,000 people on earth?

How can the earth even be around if God didn't create it? My point is that God can do anything. He can form earth...then He can use that earth to create man.

 

[Faith]

How can the earth even be around if God didn't create it? My point is that God can do anything. He can form earth...then He can use that earth to create man.

But the thing is, there is no evidence He did outside of the Bible. Also.speaking of the creation of Adam, there is no evidence of a human bottleneck of fewer than something like 10,000 peopleon earth, ever.

 

[Lamb]

But the thing is, there is no evidence He did outside of the Bible. Also.speaking of the creation of Adam, there is no evidence of a human bottleneck of fewer than something like 10,000 peopleon earth, ever.

Why would you believe any other documents over the bible?