Catholicism

[Faith]

As most of you know, I‘ve been going through a faith crisis for lack of better words, due to my belief that the Lutheran church teaches the Universe is 6,000 y/o and that there’s no such thing as microevolution, and I don’t believe that. I’m thisclose to returning to the RCC since they allow for (and the priests I know believe) the belief in a universe that’s billions of years old.
Evolution doesn’t bother me as much as the age of the universe and earth.
Any advice?

@Josiah

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

As most of you know, I‘ve been going through a faith crisis for lack of better words, due to my belief that the Lutheran church teaches the Universe is 6,000 y/o and that there’s no such thing as microevolution, and I don’t believe that. I’m thisclose to returning to the RCC since they allow for (and the priests I know believe) the belief in a universe that’s billions of years old.
Evolution doesn’t bother me as much as the age of the universe and earth.
Any advice?

Sit down with your current pastor and ask him to prove the earth is
6,000 years old. I'm a Lutheran and I've never heard this taught in my church.

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[Faith]

Sit down with your current pastor and ask him to prove the earth is
6,000 years old. I'm a Lutheran and I've never heard this taught in my church.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

I’m LCMS. My pastor and I have talked about this ad nauseam. (Sp) He says that science changes every so often and he believes in the supernatural. Among other things.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

I’m LCMS. My pastor and I have talked about this ad nauseam. (Sp) He says that science changes every so often and he believes in the supernatural. Among other things.

Has he proven the earth is six thousand years old using Scripture? He shouldn't teach a doctrine that has no Scriptural support. I wouldn't suggest going back to the RCC because of the age of the earth and micro-evolution. Now, if you had a crisis of faith over how we are justified or believed in receiving only the bread during Communion, then going back to the RCC would make more sense.

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[Faith]

Has he proven the earth is six thousand years old using Scripture? He shouldn't teach a doctrine that has no Scriptural support. I wouldn't suggest going back to the RCC because of the age of the earth and micro-evolution. Now, if you had a crisis of faith over how we are justified or believed in receiving only the bread during Communion, then going back to the RCC would make more sense.

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Well, speaking of the Eucharist, I don’t know that I believe the LCMS Eucharist is really Jesus, like the RCC.

 

[Faith]

Has he proven the earth is six thousand years old using Scripture? He shouldn't teach a doctrine that has no Scriptural support. I wouldn't suggest going back to the RCC because of the age of the earth and micro-evolution. Now, if you had a crisis of faith over how we are justified or believed in receiving only the bread during Communion, then going back to the RCC would make more sense.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

He doesn’t preach this, it’s just the official position of the LCMS. It supposedly come from the genealogies in Genesis.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Relativity allows for a billions of years old universe with a ~6000-year-old earth. That doe not make it so, just another idea about our universe and time. I simply trust the Bible in that the heavens and earth were created in 6 days (Exodus 20:11). The genealogies give an unbroken lineage to recorded historic times and so can be added up to give an age of the earth of approximately 6000 years.

While men try to explain the creation week scientifically (as with relativity and age), it very well may be that the Creation Week was a week filled with miraculous events in suspension of the natural laws that we normally have to work with (gravity, speed of light, etc.). Ha, even the speed of light cannot be proved, at least not the one-way speed, just the round trip average speed. With the suspension of natural laws during creation week we need not invoke relativity to explain stars being billions of light years away in a universe created just 6000 years ago by earth clocks.

Micro-evolution is not the best term for what in reality is the massive genetic variation God apparently built into each kind. Typically the fact of natural selection is interpreted as evidence for evolution and termed micro-evolution, when in reality it is just changes in what subset of the total originally created genetic material is displayed.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

He doesn’t preach this, it’s just the official position of the LCMS. It supposedly come from the genealogies in Genesis.

It's always been my understanding that the geneaologies in Genesis were written as a record of Jesus' bloodline. They are not proof of the age of the earth. Young Earthers can't even agree on how young Earth is, I've seen people say 6,000 years, I've seen others say 20,000 years. If it's so clear from Scripture, why is there no consistency in their answers? I'm WELS btw.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

Well, speaking of the Eucharist, I don’t know that I believe the LCMS Eucharist is really Jesus, like the RCC.

So you align more with the Protestant teaching that the Lord's Supper is symbolic only, doesn't deliver forgiveness of sin to the believer, and is an act that you do for God to show how faithful you are?

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[Faith]

Relativity allows for a billions of years old universe with a ~6000-year-old earth. That doe not make it so, just another idea about our universe and time. I simply trust the Bible in that the heavens and earth were created in 6 days (Exodus 20:11). The genealogies give an unbroken lineage to recorded historic times and so can be added up to give an age of the earth of approximately 6000 years.

While men try to explain the creation week scientifically (as with relativity and age), it very well may be that the Creation Week was a week filled with miraculous events in suspension of the natural laws that we normally have to work with (gravity, speed of light, etc.). Ha, even the speed of light cannot be proved, at least not the one-way speed, just the round trip average speed. With the suspension of natural laws during creation week we need not invoke relativity to explain stars being billions of light years away in a universe created just 6000 years ago by earth clocks.

Micro-evolution is not the best term for what in reality is the massive genetic variation God apparently built into each kind. Typically the fact of natural selection is interpreted as evidence for evolution and termed micro-evolution, when in reality it is just changes in what subset of the total originally created genetic material is displayed.

Thank you! Food for thought. I prefer my Lutheran church…..awesome pastors, awesome congregants, awesome messages, awesome music, but because of my doubts about all this I felt like I’d have to return to the RCC. Still don’t know what I’m going to do but I emailed my registration to the RCC (different church than my previous Catholic church) then started questioning my choice and called their office to not official have me registered until I can make a final decision.

 

[Faith]

It's always been my understanding that the geneaologies in Genesis were written as a record of Jesus' bloodline. They are not proof of the age of the earth. Young Earthers can't even agree on how young Earth is, I've seen people say 6,000 years, I've seen others say 20,000 years. If it's so clear from Scripture, why is there no consistency in their answers? I'm WELS btw.

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I haven’t seen 20,000 years but I have seen 10,000 years.

 

[zecryphon_nomdiv]

I haven’t seen 20,000 years but I have seen 10,000 years.

Yeah, I've seen that number too. There's just no concensus among a group who believe the geneaologies are clear and definitive. It doesn't make sense.

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[Faith]

So you align more with the Protestant teaching that the Lord's Supper is symbolic only, doesn't deliver forgiveness of sin to the believer, and is an act that you do for God to show how faithful you are?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

No, I question my Pastors ability to consecrate the Eucharist (via the Holy Spirit) or whatever it’s called due to their lack of apostolic succession.

 

[Faith]

So you align more with the Protestant teaching that the Lord's Supper is symbolic only, doesn't deliver forgiveness of sin to the believer, and is an act that you do for God to show how faithful you are?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

I think I believe that the RCC communion is Jesus. But at the same time IF the LCMS also has Jesus in and under the bread and wine, all the better. That makes more sense to me than transubstantiation.

 

[Faith]

It's always been my understanding that the geneaologies in Genesis were written as a record of Jesus' bloodline. They are not proof of the age of the earth. Young Earthers can't even agree on how young Earth is, I've seen people say 6,000 years, I've seen others say 20,000 years. If it's so clear from Scripture, why is there no consistency in their answers? I'm WELS btw.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

The genealogies of Genesis provide the framework around which the Book of Genesis is structured. Beginning with Adam, genealogical material in Genesis 4, 5, 10, 11, 22, 25, 29–30, 35–36, and 46 moves the narrative forward from the creation to the beginnings of the Israelites' existence as a people.

Genealogies of Genesis - Wikipedia​

 

[Faith]

I guess what bothers me a lot, too, is that in doing online research, all I get is old earth commentary, articles etc. unless it’s from questionable creationist sites like Answers In Genesis, rather than scientists.

 

[Faith]

Relativity allows for a billions of years old universe with a ~6000-year-old earth. That doe not make it so, just another idea about our universe and time. I simply trust the Bible in that the heavens and earth were created in 6 days (Exodus 20:11). The genealogies give an unbroken lineage to recorded historic times and so can be added up to give an age of the earth of approximately 6000 years.

While men try to explain the creation week scientifically (as with relativity and age), it very well may be that the Creation Week was a week filled with miraculous events in suspension of the natural laws that we normally have to work with (gravity, speed of light, etc.). Ha, even the speed of light cannot be proved, at least not the one-way speed, just the round trip average speed. With the suspension of natural laws during creation week we need not invoke relativity to explain stars being billions of light years away in a universe created just 6000 years ago by earth clocks.

Micro-evolution is not the best term for what in reality is the massive genetic variation God apparently built into each kind. Typically the fact of natural selection is interpreted as evidence for evolution and termed micro-evolution, when in reality it is just changes in what subset of the total originally created genetic material is displayed.

Yes, but what about the dating of the earth? I read credible scientific articles that said creationists make it sound as if the dating method (s) is faulty when in reality they have many different dating methods, all pointing to an old earth.

Creationists use the Grand Canyons bent layers of rock as evidence this occurred from the Great Flood and scientists say that these bent layers can happen from something else (heat?).

So all this comes back to my not knowing where I belong. In the Catholic Church or the LCMS?

 

[Fritz Kobus]

He doesn’t preach this, it’s just the official position of the LCMS. It supposedly come from the genealogies in Genesis.

Well, I guess you would want to determine how much that bothers you. I cannot find a church that I agree with all their teachings. If he does not preach it, then it is more or less in the background, though perhaps they might use creationist materials for VBS or Sunday School.

I guess what bothers me a lot, too, is that in doing online research, all I get is old earth commentary, articles etc. unless it’s from questionable creationist sites like Answers In Genesis, rather than scientists.

Answers in Genesis actually employs real scientists. I prefer a different group of scientists at Creation Ministries International (CMI). Here is something on the age of the earth from CMI:

Implied precision and potential cultural differences (e.g. calendar systems, birthday conventions, and rounding conventions) mean we cannot pinpoint the age of the earth to a single year, yet the accumulated imprecision from those sources is limited to a maximum range of 308 years. Even including textual variants and debates over interpretation does not allow for dates approaching 10,000 ... Accounting for all presently known relevant details and assuming the Babylonian Captivity began in 587 or 586 BC, we can say with confidence that the Bible places limits on the year of creation between 5665 and 3822 BC.

Biblical age of the earth

Can the age of the earth be determined from the Bible?

creation.com

 

[Faith]

Well, I guess you would want to determine how much that bothers you. I cannot find a church that I agree with all their teachings. If he does not preach it, then it is more or less in the background, though perhaps they might use creationist materials for VBS or Sunday School.

Answers in Genesis actually employs real scientists. I prefer a different group of scientists at Creation Ministries International (CMI). Here is something on the age of the earth from CMI:

Biblical age of the earth

Can the age of the earth be determined from the Bible?

creation.com

Math isn’t my forte‘. So if creation was around the years listed, that would make the earth how old?

 

[Fritz Kobus]

No, I question my Pastors ability to consecrate the Eucharist (via the Holy Spirit) or whatever it’s called due to their lack of apostolic succession.

If you are baptized by a pastor who later turns out to be a hypocrite unbeliever who was just faking it because he had no other job skills and the church job at least paid the bills, your baptism is still valid. It is not dependent on who administers it, but on God. Same goes for the Eucharist. I cannot find apostolic succession in the Bible, much less that it would be required for pastors to give communion.