Can babies be conscious of their baptism?

Lamb

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No, grace is not imparted in baptism. By you making that statement you are saying that baptism saves. It does not.
Grace is imparted at salvation/adoption. Baptism is a ceremony instituted by God to commemorate what God has already done in saving/adopting someone.
Conclusion: Baptizing an infant is putting the cart before the horse and is nowhere taught in scripture. Infant baptism is solely a man-made creation of church dogma not God ordained requirement.

Baptism saves in the same way the ark saved Noah and his family...it was a means used by God to give His grace and carry them through.
 

Albion

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No, grace is not imparted in baptism.
Yes, it is. And that has already been supported here with scripture. If you are skeptical about the veracity of the Bible, that is simply a personal opinion.
 

MennoSota

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Baptism saves in the same way the ark saved Noah and his family...it was a means used by God to give His grace and carry them through.
No, no, no and no.
Baptism is not equal to Noah's ark. Grace is not expressed in baptism. Grace is symbolized in baptism, which is why baptism should never take place until an individual can communicate their adoption by grace.
 

MennoSota

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Yes, it is. And that has already been supported here with scripture. If you are skeptical about the veracity of the Bible, that is simply a personal opinion.
No it isn't and you have abused scripture to make a pretzel in which you force the Bible to say what it does not say. It is you who is sharing an unsupported opinion.
 

Albion

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No it isn't and you have abused scripture to make a pretzel in which you force the Bible to say what it does not say. It is you who is sharing an unsupported opinion.
This issue has already been settled.
 

MennoSota

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This issue has already been settled.
Only for those who hold their dogma and tradition as greater than God's word. For us who hold to Sola Scriptura, the scripture proves you wrong.
 

Lamb

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No, no, no and no.
Baptism is not equal to Noah's ark. Grace is not expressed in baptism. Grace is symbolized in baptism, which is why baptism should never take place until an individual can communicate their adoption by grace.

Did I say baptism is equal to Noah's ark? I was giving you the examples you plainly miss on how God uses means so that you can see how HE is at work in baptism. God doesn't need water to do anything and yet He chose to use it. Jesus didn't need mud but chose to use it. You insist Jesus didn't use means and yet there it was...the mud. The mud did nothing.
 

MennoSota

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Did I say baptism is equal to Noah's ark? I was giving you the examples you plainly miss on how God uses means so that you can see how HE is at work in baptism. God doesn't need water to do anything and yet He chose to use it. Jesus didn't need mud but chose to use it. You insist Jesus didn't use means and yet there it was...the mud. The mud did nothing.
The difference is that there is no mystical healing or salvation taking place in baptism. Baptism doesn't represent anything to the infant. It is purely a photo op for the parents and family. Nothing more.
 

Albion

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Did I say baptism is equal to Noah's ark? I was giving you the examples you plainly miss on how God uses means so that you can see how HE is at work in baptism. .
God love ya, Lamm, but you're contending against Anabaptist dogma, you know...and a knee-jerk defender of it.

Under these circumstances, no meaningful discussion can go further between conventional Christians and, on the other side, a member who refuses even to consider Scripture. Can the thread simply be closed for the good of the forum (and no new duplicate of it allowed), since it is going nowhere and, at this stage, everything has been said many times previously??
 

Josiah

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MennoSota,

It's YOU insisting that God CANNOT use means to convey grace (you seem quite locked into all these things God CANNOT do)..... God cannot use parents sacrificing a lamb and putting the blood on the doorpost to save their child.... Jesus cannot use a mud ball to convey healing to a man born blind.... God cannot use an ark to save Noah and his family from death.... YOU are the one with all these restrictions on God, all these dogmatic things God cannot do. Odd coming from one who CLAIMS to be a monergist but chants the identical spin of synergists....


You keep saying we are mandated to ignore denominational interpretations and spins - but that's all you offer. Just the perfect, verbatim parroting of the new Anabaptist/Baptist spin on this subject.
You keep saying we are mandated to just go by the words we all see in Scripture - but you totally exempt yourself. You have offered NOT ONE Scripture that states ANY of the things you dogmatic shout over and over and over.


I think everyone is on to you, my friend.




- Josiah
 

MennoSota

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God love ya, Lamm, but you're contending against Anabaptist dogma, you know...and a knee-jerk defender of it.

Under these circumstances, no meaningful discussion can go further between conventional Christians and, on the other side, a member who refuses even to consider Scripture. Can the thread simply be closed for the good of the forum (and no new duplicate of it allowed), since it is going nowhere and, at this stage, everything has been said many times previously??
LOL, atpollard already addressed the foolish attempt at Anabaptist connection.
No, you're dealing with Sola Scriptura (atpollard and me) versus denominational dogma (you, Lämmchen and Josiah). Cling to your traditions over scripture if you must...
 

atpollard

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Josiah

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No, you're dealing with Sola Scriptura (atpollard and me) versus denominational dogma (you, Lämmchen and Josiah). Cling to your traditions over scripture if you must...



[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]


YOU have done nothing on this topic since coming to this site 6 months ago except parrot, verbatim, the new unique and invented denominational spin of the Anabaptist/Baptist denomination. YOU - my friend, are the one doing what you condemn and what you demand all disregard. Everyone knows this - but you.

YOU are the one who keeps insisting that we are mandated to disregard anything not specifically stated in the words found in the Bible.... yet you have not offered ONE SCRIPTURE that states the talking points you have been parroting. Not one. Haven't even attempted to do it. Everyone knows this - but you.


Many of us have TRIED to discuss the topic with you.... but you are SO powerfully locked into the synergistic mindset and SO powerfully locked into the new, invented denominational spin of the Anabaptist/Baptist denomination on this that it's absolutely impossible. And of course it is obvious (and you have admitted) that you often don't read what others post to you.



1. Infant baptism will never be acceptable to synergists. Thus you will constantly rant about what babies are unable to do. This new dogma was invented (altogether out of the blue) in the 16th Century by some very radical synergists NOT because of some verse about baptism but because it seemed undeniable to them that babies can't jump through the hoops we must jump through in order to be saved - and from that perspective, they're right..... I wasn't even awake or conscience or breathing when I was baptized, so I have to agree: IF everything is about MY adequately jumping through a bunch of hoops, OBVIOUSLY I could not have done so prior to my baptism. But while the argument focuses on baptism (because that IS the distinctive new invention of Anabaptists/Baptists) that's not really the issue, synergism is.



2. The Norm of Anabaptists will NEVER be accepted by others (or even themselves). They hold that what is normative for dogma is NOT the teachings of the Bible (the honest ones agree there is no stated prohibition) but the EXAMPLES found in the Bible. They are focused on one and only one issue: Where in the Bible is any baby baptized? Aren't all the examples of adults who FIRST came to faith, FIRST repented, FIRST consented and requested baptism? In other words, what the Bible TEACHES is irrelevant (they conceded their prohibition is nowhere taught) but what is EXAMPLED or ILLUSTRATED by the few cases of baptism that happen to be recorded in the NT. There are several problems with that, which sadly never get discussed because all focus on baptism rather than the rubric used in this argument.

A) It's false. And eventually, Anabaptists/Baptists will admit it. Actually, there are examples where we simply can't know what was the age or faith of the receiver. YES - no one can prove these 'househoods' included children or not-yet-believers but that's not the point. The point is it destroys their premise: that every case is of adults who FIRST repented, FIRST chose Jesus, FIRST consented. The whole apologetic is simply false. Some will admit this - finally admitting they are ASSUMING but then rebuke others for ASSUMING the opposite. They whole apologetic is thus declared to be wrong.

B) They THEMSELVES reject their own argumen
t. They declare this point that we can only do what is consistently illustrated as done in the NT by posting on the internet, lol. And perhaps during a worship service where 90% of what they are doing is never once (much less consistently) illustrated as done in the NT. Since they so boldly reject their premise, why should others accept it?



3. The radical individualism of the Anabaptist is problematic. In this UBER-individualistic milieu that has infected Christianity since the Enlightenment, the strong embrace of community and family in the Bible has been abandoned by many. Thus the argument, "The faith and actions of parents and the community can have NO relevance! It's Jesus and ME!" In terms of uber, radical individualism, this "rings" with a lot of people - but not with the Bible. I gave just one example: the last of the Ten Plagues of Egypt where the faith and obedience of PARENTS and the community is what literally saved the first-born child; God used the blood and the faith/obeidence of the PARENTS/COMMUNITY to save their child (who evidently didn't believe or do ANYTHING in this regard). I bring up that example - but there are SO many more. But this is a "hard sell" today because of the very, very radical embrace of individualism and the complete abandonment of any sense of community, family, church, chosen people of God. In truth, anti-paedobaptism just "fits" with this "It's Jesus and ME!" mentality SO entrenched in our socieity, as well as the synergism also SO popular today. Thus, your defense of this new invention.



See posts 203, 204, 207, 217..... all of which you have entirely, completely, and by necessity ignored.






A blessed lenten season to all...


- Josiah




.
 
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Josiah

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dp
 
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Pedrito

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In Post #192 I made a request:
I therefore ask Lämmchen to precisely define what “God working in that human according to Jesus' command” actually means with respect to baptised infants – i.e. what precise benefit(s) does a baby receive from God as a result of being baptised, that he or she would have missed out on had they not been baptised.

Once again, thanks in advance is extended.

In Post #198 Lämmchen replied:
Pedrito, I've posted in other baptism threads the benefits any human receives from God in baptism.

I therefore request of Lämmchen, to make it easy for all interested parties, that she either consolidate those thoughts from various locations regarding the baptism of babies, into a new Post, or provide links to the particular Posts in which she expressed those relevant thoughts.

==============================================================================================

And seeing that Albion in Post #218 stated:
Grace is imparted in baptism.
I ask of (you) Albion that (you) he provide a concise and precise answer to the question I asked of Lämmchen:

What precise benefit(s) does a baby receive from God as a result of being baptised, that he or she would have missed out on had they not been baptised?

And I offer thanks in advance.
 

Lamb

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1. WHAT BLESSINGS DO WE RECEIVE FROM GOD IN BAPTISM?

1 Peter 3:20-21. … in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it a few people, eight in all, were saved through water — and this water symbolizes Baptism that now saves you also.

Colossians 2:11-12. In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in Baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Romans 6:3-10. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through Baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

* Note: These passages from Colossians and Romans are summarized well by Dr. Lowell Green: “Baptism is the retroactive participation in the work of Good Friday and Easter Sunday — even better, it is incorporation into the body of the risen and ascended Savior ...”

Galatians 3:27. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Eph. 5:26. Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word.

Titus 3:5. He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Corinthians 12:13. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:11. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Acts 22:16. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.

Acts 2:37-39. Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

Mark 16:16. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

* Note: In these passages, the Word of God associates Baptism with dying and rising with Christ, being clothed with Christ, being cleansed and made holy by Christ, having sins washed away, receiving the Holy Spirit, being regenerated (reborn) and renewed, receiving the forgiveness of sins, and being saved.
 

Albion

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Nice answer, Lamm. Infant baptism makes the child part of the visible church of Christ, forgives original sin, gives grace for spiritual growth, and marks the child as a covenant person in the way that circumcision did in OT times.
 

Pedrito

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I thank Lämmchen for the detail she provided in Post #237.

(Readers will note that her response did not directly address the question "what precise benefit(s) does a baby receive from God as a result of being baptised, that he or she would have missed out on had they not been baptised".

So it seems reasonable to assume that of all the general blessings that "we" receive, as listed by Lämmchen, all of them apply to babies that are baptised.)

==============================================================================================

Based on that, my understanding becomes:

1 Peter 3:20-21 – Babies that are baptised are saved. Therefore those that are not baptised are lost.

Colossians 2:11-12 – Babies that are baptised are buried with Him in Baptism, in which they were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God. (We have been told that those babies can also have faith.) Babies that are not baptised have not been buried and raised in that way.

Romans 6:3-10 – Babies that are baptised have been buried with Him through Baptism into death, have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, and shall also live with Him. Babies that have not been baptised will miss out if they die.

Dr. Lowell Green: “Baptism is the retroactive participation in the work of Good Friday and Easter Sunday — even better, it is incorporation into the body of the risen and ascended Savior ...”. Therefore, babies that have not been baptised are not “incorporated into the body of the risen and ascended Savior”.

Galatians 3:27 -- Babies that are baptised have clothed themselves with Christ. Babies that have not been baptised are not so clothed, and are therefore vulnerable.

Eph. 5:26 – Babies that are baptised have been cleansed by the washing with water through the word. Babies that have not been baptised have not been cleansed (of their sins it would seem – see below).

Titus 3:5 – Babies that are baptised have experienced the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. Babies that have not been baptised have experienced neither.

1 Corinthians 6:11 – Babies that are baptised have been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Babies that have not been baptised have not been washed, have not been sanctified, and have not been justified. Their state appears to be precarious.

Acts 22:16 – Babies that are baptised have had their sins washed away. Babies that have not been baptised have not had their sins washed away.

Acts 2:37-39 – Babies that are baptised have received forgiveness of sins, (and apparently have received the gift of the Holy Spirit – see below). Babies that have not been baptised have not received forgiveness of sins.

Mark 16:16 – Babies that are baptised (we have been told that those babies can also have faith) are saved. Unbaptised babies are not.

“Note: In these passages, the Word of God associates Baptism with dying and rising with Christ, being clothed with Christ, being cleansed and made holy by Christ, having sins washed away, receiving the Holy Spirit, being regenerated (reborn) and renewed, receiving the forgiveness of sins, and being saved.” – which means that unbaptised babies have none of those things. If they die, they are lost.

==============================================================================================

There is a thread titled “Does Jesus Hate Children?”.

Jesus being God, can that not be rephrased, “Does God Hate Children?”?

If unbaptised infants are lost if they die, where does that lead?

If unbaptised infants are not lost, then could the stated benefits of baptising babies, need some review?

And does it matter whether or not babies can be conscious of their baptism?
 
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Albion

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Maybe it is a good thing that members occasionally will list the points that they do not understand, even after having read repeated explanations. While much of the post above checks out, there are a least two errors.

1. It is not the case that a baptized child is guaranteed of salvation. This point has been explained on these forums repeatedly. The first and the last verses cited were incorrectly interpreted, therefore.

2. We do not know the status of a baby who dies unbaptized.
 
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