Born of water and the Spirit.

MoreCoffee

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Acts 2
wind too

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord[a] in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

well then if Acts 2 is the baptism with fire and Spirit we need look no further. But how does that relate to being born from above by water and the Spirit?
 

Imalive

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well then if Acts 2 is the baptism with fire and Spirit we need look no further. But how does that relate to being born from above by water and the Spirit?

That fire is the Holy Spirit and he says 2 things, just like in water and Holy Spirit. So water can mean the Holy Spirit.
 

MoreCoffee

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That fire is the Holy Spirit and he says 2 things, just like in water and Holy Spirit. So water can mean the Holy Spirit.

so "fire and Spirit" means "Spirit" and "water and Spirit" means "Spirit"? I don't think that is good exegesis :)
 

Imalive

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If D.A. Carson didn’t convince you with mere words, perhaps Gungor will with music:

When water is used figuratively in the Old Testament, it habitually refers to renewal or cleansing, especially when it is found in conjunction with ‘spirit’. This conjunction may be explicit, or may hide behind language depicting the ‘pouring out’ of the spirit (cf. Nu. 19:17-19; Ps. 51:9-10; Is. 32:15; 44:3-5; 55:1-3; Je. 2:13; 17:13; Ezk. 47:9; Joel 2:28-29; Zc. 14:8). Most important of all is Ezekiel 36:25-27, where water and spirit come together so forcefully, the first to signify cleansing from impurity, and the second to depict the transformation of heart that will enable people to follow God wholly. And it is no accident that the account of the valley of dry bones, where Ezekiel preaches and the Spirit brings life to dry bones, follows hard after Ezekiel’s water/spirit passage (cf. Ezk. 37; and notes on 3:8, below). The language is reminiscent of the ‘new heart’ expressions that revolve around the promise of the new covenant

https://www.google.nl/amp/s/aaronsh...aning-of-born-of-water-and-of-the-spirit/amp/
 

Imalive

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He says this about water being baptism:

Those who adopt this position, of course, are forced to admit that John’s words could have had no relevance to the historical Nicodemus. This part of the account, at least, becomes a narrative fiction designed to instruct the church on the importance of baptism. What is not always recognized is that this theory makes the Evangelist an extraordinarily incompetent story-teller, since in v. 10 he pictures Jesus berating Nicodemus for not understanding these things. If water = baptism is so important for entering the kingdom, it is surprising that the rest of the discussion never mentions it again: the entire focus is on the work of the Spirit (v. 8), the work of the Son (vv. 14-15), the work of God himself (vv. 16-17), and the place of faith (vv. 15-16).

Ezekiel 36

Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
 

MoreCoffee

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If D.A. Carson didn’t convince you with mere words, perhaps Gungor will with music:

...

Looks like a whole lot of effort just to avoid the obvious meaning of water. The water is water and the Spirit is the Spirit. The water doesn't need to be converted to symbolism. Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Get baptised and receive the Holy Spirit. That's what baptism is for.

 

Imalive

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Looks like a whole lot of effort just to avoid the obvious meaning of water. The water is water and the Spirit is the Spirit. The water doesn't need to be converted to symbolism. Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Get baptised and receive the Holy Spirit. That's what baptism is for.


Dumb that Nicodemus didn't get that.
 

MoreCoffee

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Dumb that Nicodemus didn't get that.

Jesus did - more or less - say that Nicodemus was kind of stupid for a man who was the teacher of Israel.
 

Imalive

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Jesus did - more or less - say that Nicodemus was kind of stupid for a man who was the teacher of Israel.

Yes but he couldn't have known that. That was in Acts.
Then it should have been about the baptism of John.
 

MoreCoffee

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Yes but he couldn't have known that. That was in Acts.
Then it should have been about the baptism of John.

Why? Jesus' disciples were already baptising. They were not doing John's work.
 

Imalive

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Why? Jesus' disciples were already baptising. They were not doing John's work.

Yes I thought about that later too. But the baptism in the Spirit wasn't yet.
Anyways it cant be baptism because He says without it he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Abraham was never baptized. It cant be amniotic fluid because miscarriages go to heaven and are not born. So the last guy is right.
 

MoreCoffee

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Yes I thought about that later too. But the baptism in the Spirit wasn't yet.
Anyways it cant be baptism because He says without it he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Abraham was never baptized. It cant be amniotic fluid because miscarriages go to heaven and are not born. So the last guy is right.

If the disciples were doing Christian baptisms then the Spirit was there. It is possible that the disciples were doing some other baptisms.
 

atpollard

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It was a joke. I give up. I can't find it. I found other funny idioms though.

Good to hear, because I ran it through Google Translate and was having a heck of a time applying it to what Jesus and Nicodemus were talking about.
 

atpollard

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so "fire and Spirit" means "Spirit" and "water and Spirit" means "Spirit"? I don't think that is good exegesis :)

Typology. The Bible is full of typologies that reappear over and over.

FIRE refers to God burning away sin. It is the Power of God to punish by utterly destroying sin (all that sets itself up in opposition to him). By FIRE God passed judgement on Sodom and Gamorah. By FIRE that could not consume a bush that contained only the perfect, God anointed Moses to deliver His people from slavery and establish the greatest typology in all of scripture for what the Messiah would ultimately come to do. FIRE consumed the Bulls and goats and all of the sin offerings, utterly burning them until nothing of the sin remained but the purified ash of the red heffer that was used to cleanse the people.
So a baptism by fire and the Spirit is a baptism (immersion/ritual cleansing) accomplished by the Holy Spirit himself, employing the power of God to burn away completely all of our sin in the ultimate refiner's fire. It is not enough to attempt to pour new wine (the Holy Spirit) into an old wine skin. The Fire of God must utterly consume the old heart and create in us a new heart.

WATER is the symbol for passing from an old life to a new life. Before the Great Flood, the entire world was one way. Noah and his family passed 'through' the flood of God's judgement and exited the Ark in a completely new world that was unlike the world that had existed before. Jonah and the typology of WATER. Before Jonah refused the command of God. Jonah passed through the WATER and was transformed. Moses lead the people of Israel out of Egypt and they crossed the Red Sea. Passing through the water marked an eternal turning point in their history. There would be no going back the way they came and God washed away all those influences that would draw them back to the old life. Israel was baptized again as they crossed the Jordan and entered their homeland. John the Baptist came along and made things crystal clear by preaching a message of repentence. Repent of your sins, perform the ceremonial washing to cleanse you and mark the fresh start, and prepare your heart to receive the Messiah. WATER again as a clear typology for a transformational divide between what came before and what came after.
So the baptism by Water and the Spirit is again the work of the Holy Spirit himself, employing the power of God to wash away our old life and mark the beginning of a new life.

The Bible is all about typologies repeated over and over until they find their ultimate truth in Jesus Christ.
 

MennoSota

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Jesus answered Nicodemus’s confusion by elaborating on the truth He introduced in verse 3: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” A number of interpretations have been offered to explain the phrase born of water. Some see two births here, one natural, and the other spiritual. Proponents of this view interpret the water as the amniotic fluid that flows from the womb just before childbirth. But it is not clear that the ancients described natural birth in that way. Further, the phrase born of water and the Spirit parallels the phrase “born again” in verse 3; thus, only one birth is in view. Others see in the phrase born of water a reference to baptism, either that of John the Baptist, or Christian baptism. But Nicodemus would not have understood Christian baptism (which did not yet exist) nor misunderstood John the Baptist’s baptism. Nor would Jesus have refrained from baptizing people (4:2) if baptism were necessary for salvation. Still others see the phrase as a reference to Jewish ceremonial washings, which being born of the Spirit transcends. However the two terms are not in contrast with each other, but combine to form a parallel with the phrase “born again” in verse 3. (For a careful examination of the various interpretations of born of water, see D. A. Carson, The Gospel According to John, The Pillar New Testament Commentary [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1991], 191–96.)

Since Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand this truth (v. 10), it must have been something with which he was familiar. Water and Spirit often refer symbolically in the Old Testament to spiritual renewal and cleansing (cf. Num. 19:17–19; Isa. 4:4; 32:15; 44:3; 55:1; Joel 2:28–29; Zech. 13:1). In one of the most glorious passages in all of Scripture describing Israel’s restoration to the Lord by the new covenant, God said through Ezekiel,

For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. (Ezek. 36:24–27)

It was surely this passage that Jesus had in mind, showing regeneration to be an Old Testament truth (cf. Deut. 30:6; Jer. 31:31–34; Ezek. 11:18–20) with which Nicodemus would have been acquainted. Against this Old Testament backdrop, Christ’s point was unmistakable: Without the spiritual washing of the soul, a cleansing accomplished only by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) through the Word of God (Eph. 5:26), no one can enter God’s kingdom.

Jesus continued by further emphasizing that this spiritual cleansing is wholly a work of God, and not the result of human effort: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” Just as only human nature can beget human nature, so also only the Holy Spirit can effect spiritual transformation. The term flesh (sarx) here refers merely to human nature (as it does in 1:13–14); in this context, it does not have the negative moral connotation that it frequently does in Paul’s writings (e.g., Rom. 8:1–8, 12–13). Even if a physical rebirth were possible, it would produce only flesh. Thus, only the Spirit can produce the spiritual birth required for entrance into God’s kingdom. Regeneration is entirely His work, unaided by any human effort (cf. Rom. 3:25).
https://www.gty.org/library/bibleqn...t-does-it-mean-to-be-born-of-water-and-spirit
 

atpollard

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I like the Ezekiel parallel as an explanation for the words that Nicodemus would have been expected to know ... the promised rebirth by water and the Spirit with both promised as coming from God to restore Israel (the true Israel United to the True Vine).
 

MoreCoffee

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Typology. The Bible is full of typologies that reappear over and over.

FIRE refers to God burning away sin. It is the Power of God to punish by utterly destroying sin (all that sets itself up in opposition to him). By FIRE God passed judgement on Sodom and Gamorah. By FIRE that could not consume a bush that contained only the perfect, God anointed Moses to deliver His people from slavery and establish the greatest typology in all of scripture for what the Messiah would ultimately come to do. FIRE consumed the Bulls and goats and all of the sin offerings, utterly burning them until nothing of the sin remained but the purified ash of the red heffer that was used to cleanse the people.
So a baptism by fire and the Spirit is a baptism (immersion/ritual cleansing) accomplished by the Holy Spirit himself, employing the power of God to burn away completely all of our sin in the ultimate refiner's fire. It is not enough to attempt to pour new wine (the Holy Spirit) into an old wine skin. The Fire of God must utterly consume the old heart and create in us a new heart.

WATER is the symbol for passing from an old life to a new life. Before the Great Flood, the entire world was one way. Noah and his family passed 'through' the flood of God's judgement and exited the Ark in a completely new world that was unlike the world that had existed before. Jonah and the typology of WATER. Before Jonah refused the command of God. Jonah passed through the WATER and was transformed. Moses lead the people of Israel out of Egypt and they crossed the Red Sea. Passing through the water marked an eternal turning point in their history. There would be no going back the way they came and God washed away all those influences that would draw them back to the old life. Israel was baptized again as they crossed the Jordan and entered their homeland. John the Baptist came along and made things crystal clear by preaching a message of repentence. Repent of your sins, perform the ceremonial washing to cleanse you and mark the fresh start, and prepare your heart to receive the Messiah. WATER again as a clear typology for a transformational divide between what came before and what came after.
So the baptism by Water and the Spirit is again the work of the Holy Spirit himself, employing the power of God to wash away our old life and mark the beginning of a new life.

The Bible is all about typologies repeated over and over until they find their ultimate truth in Jesus Christ.

There is plenty of typology in the holy scriptures but isn't it usual that the type is in the old testament and the reality is in the new? I am very sure that "I am telling you the truth," replied Jesus, "that no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit." is in the new testament alone. But tell me, why can't water just be water in the verse? The verse allows for that. Just like the verse allows "the Spirit" to just be "the Spirit" without any symbolism attached.
 

Imalive

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Or it's the Word.
The Words I speak to you are Spirit and Life.
 

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Or it's the Word.
The Words I speak to you are Spirit and Life.

Baptism isn't baptism without the Word because then it's just water.
 

MoreCoffee

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Or it's the Word.
The Words I speak to you are Spirit and Life.

I do not think so. Water is water. It can have symbolic meaning if somebody wants it to but Jesus said "born of water and the Spirit" which doesn't seem like he was trying to use symbolic water and Spirit. He was explaining birth from above to Nicodemus. Nicodemus didn't get it in verse 4. So Jesus spells it out in the following verses.
John 3:3-15 Jesus answered: In all truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above. [4] Nicodemus said, 'How can anyone who is already old be born? Is it possible to go back into the womb again and be born?' [5] Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit; [6] what is born of human nature is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Do not be surprised when I say: You must be born from above. [8] The wind blows where it pleases; you can hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. [9] 'How is that possible?' asked Nicodemus. [10] Jesus replied, 'You are the Teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things! [11] 'In all truth I tell you, we speak only about what we know and witness only to what we have seen and yet you people reject our evidence. [12] If you do not believe me when I speak to you about earthly things, how will you believe me when I speak to you about heavenly things? [13] No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of man; [14] as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up [15] so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.
 
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