Assurance or Arrogance

[Pedrito]

From Post #26 [emphasis added]:
#13 is where I see a list of scriptures that MIGHT SEEM to imply a person who is saved is not always saved, but can somehow 'lose' their salvation or have it revoked?

But its more examples of taking chopped portions of passages out of context and attaching them to each other to bolster a point, or at least imply one.
The 3 verses from Hebrews6 are starting to seem like a broken record.
The popular new passage to try to bring fear and doubt to believers.

The chopped portions of scripture referred to by Snerfle, quoted in full in Post #13, were:
1 Corinthians 10:12
Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 10:26-29
Luke 9:62
1 John 5:16-17
Hebrews 3:6-12
Hebrews 3:13-14
Matthew 24:13

==============================================================================================

1 Corinthians 10:12

The context is dire warnings from the apostle Paul to his readers. It is possible to fall. There is always a way out, but it is on the person being tempted to take it. Otherwise, if “Once Saved, Always Saved” is really true, why did Paul even bother to mention these things?

Hebrews 6:4-6

The context is the fact that it is possible for “saved” people (to use terminology often seen used) to fall away. If they do, their fate is likened in the following verses (Hebrews 6:7-8) to that of plants bearing thorns and briers – cursing and burning. One might also mention Hebrews 6:11-12.

Hebrews 10:26-29

That does seem rather self-explanatory.

Luke 9:62

This statement follows three examples of people who initially had a desire to follow Jesus, but let worldly things take precedence. Just like the example in Post #21.

1 John 5:16-17

People who have experienced true spiritual regeneration can, and have the responsibility to, recognise each other, and know when such a person is on the way out as it were. (“Going out backwards”, to borrow a term from the card game “Five Hundred”).

Hebrews 3:6-12

The context is, as confirmed by Verse 12, and by the example of God’s judgement on the people He had delivered from Egypt, that it is possible to fall away and pay the penalty for so doing.

Hebrews 3:13-14

Ditto.

Matthew 24:13

The context is persecution and social decay.

Pedrito hereby reiterates the pertinence of all of those Scripture quotes in evaluating the “Once Saved Always Saved” proposition.

==============================================================================================

And with respect to The 3 verses from Hebrews6 are starting to seem like a broken record.
The popular new passage to try to bring fear and doubt to believers.

Pedrito suggests that that “popular new passage” and its clear message have been around for quite some time.

 

[MennoSota]

Absolutely true OSAS is a lie that satan wants people to believe all the way to hell

Does God "unadopt" children whom he chose to adopt?
If, as the Bible states, God's adopted children are chosen from before the foundation of the world, does God unchoose some that he once chose?
Does the shepherd lose some sheep and refuse to search for them and refuse to bring them back to the stable?
The lie that is taught is that a person can choose God of their own free will and that their prayer acts as a magical incantation to seal their salvation.
The lie of free-will for salvation leads to many many false assertions about how God brings people to himself in the process of adoption.

 

[Pedrito]

Post #23:

All those seemingly contradictions are just 2 sides of the same coin and ppl make a doctrin of one side.

The pigeon-hole in Pedrito’s wall for that sort of statement is “cop out”.

That is simply because that style of statement is often used by people who don’t know what the balanced Scriptural position is, and don’t want to make the effort to find out.

Pedrito is open to being proven wrong in this case. But the proof will of necessity consist of demonstrable evidence that the search for the truth pertaining to this matter has been commenced.

 

[Imalive]

Post #23:


The pigeon-hole in Pedrito’s wall for that sort of statement is “cop out”.

That is simply because that style of statement is often used by people who don’t know what the balanced Scriptural position is, and don’t want to make the effort to find out.

Pedrito is open to being proven wrong in this case. But the proof will of necessity consist of demonstrable evidence that the search for the truth pertaining to this matter has been commenced.

The ones who are elect and bear fruit are secure because they stay in Him (Philippians 1 and 2 show eternal security, but you stay eternally secure because He warns w hell if you don't listen)
The warnings are there so that you don't stray.
But there will be a falling away. The ones who fall away hear and don't do the Word, foolish man who didn't build his house on the rock, foolish virgins. Parable of the sawyer, they believe for a while.
Paul spoke eternal security to ppl from whom he saw fruit and in the same letter he warned em so that they are eternally secure.

 

[user1234]

Wow, the scriptorture in this thread is astounding.
Sure, if Pedrito or whoever, wants to take bits and pieces out of a letter here, a book there, a passage this way, then of course, you can twist it into meaning whatever you want.

It amazes me though, how the One True and Living God and Saviour Jesus Christ, went through ALL He did to save us, purchasing us in His own blood, and He holds out His hand to a bunch of undeserving, wretched sinners (no, I'm not pointing fingers ... I include myself, and it's the bible's consensus) and yet some ppl are determined to undermine His grace and goodness, and twist His Gospel (Good News) into a lifetime of fear, doubt, mean-spiritedness, and 'bad' cheer (instead of good cheer, mutual support and encouragement, and rejoicing).

Butcher 3 verses out of Hebrews 6, and you have saved ppl not only losing their salvation, but NEVER being able to 'get it again' .
Just horrible!

Same thing with other passages plucked out of their context...it's just sad what God/Jesus is portrayed as....an arbitrary, unpredictable, mean, 'Indian-giver' (←sorry, bad phrase).

Okay, lets say you're Once saved, but NOT ALWAYS saved....Can you get saved again?
Can you lose it again, then?
How many times can you get saved, lost, saved, lost?
If you die on that 'unsaved' day, do you go straight to hell, but if you dont die, and then get re-saved, then die, do you go straight to heaven?

Which sins do you have to commit (or is it the ones of Omission...) And how many, or for how long, does it take to get unsaved....and what does it take to get re-saved?

This sounds like the same kind of scriptorture and oppression that the RC, many cults, and other religions of false gods, impose on their adherents.
Sin, confess to a priest, repent ...
Sin, confess, repent ... lather, rinse, repeat.

What if you die in between trips to the confessional?
This whole thing is just so works/self-righteousness based.

Why not read these verses in the context of the full passage, chapters, or full letter?
Why not back up to Heb.5:12 and start reading forward...then go all the way thru chapter6, and key on vs9, and finish with vss17-20?

Then you'll see vss 4-6 in context, how it's NOT talking about a SAVED person LOSING their salvation, it doesnt apply to born-again or saved believers at all, and the full passage gives great ASSURANCE of salvation, bc JESUS accomplished it FOR us. Vss17-20.
And so many passages are like that.

I just dont understand this obsession with trying to make God look like a big stern taskmaster who wants to keep His subjects dangling over hot coals, ready to drop them in...
Instead of seeing Him as the loving Saviour and Good Shepherd that He is.

It's not believing that Jesus saves us once for all forever and we can trust in Him completely that sends ppl to hell...

It's the NOT believing in Jesus, and believing you might LOSE your salvation so you have to work or earn your way into His grace that sends ppl to hell, bc it means you're not fully trusting in Jesus, but self/works/behavior/performance, or some combination, to save and/or keep you.

Do you want an isolated chopped verse?
One with eternal promise and security, rather than fears and threats?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. ~Acts16:31b~ GBU resent:

 

[Imalive]

I posted a link here once in which a guy explained it but I can't find it anymore. He had Paul w those guys on the ship as an example. God promised him none would perish. He had given them to him. Then next thing He says is: dont let em go off the ship or they die. He used the warning to save em.
Or Rahab. Let all your family be in your house otherwise their blood comes on their own head. Her whole family got saved because of that warning.


But after long abstinence from food, then Paul stood in the midst of them and said, “Men, you should have listened to me, and not have sailed from Crete and incurred this disaster and loss. 22 And now I urge you to take heart, for there will be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve, 24 saying, ‘Do not be afraid, Paul; you must be brought before Caesar; and indeed God has granted you all those who sail with you.’ 25 Therefore take heart, men, for I believe God that it will be just as it was told me. 26 However, we must run aground on a certain island.”

30 And as the sailors were seeking to escape from the ship, when they had let down the skiff into the sea, under pretense of putting out anchors from the prow, 31 Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved.”

The texts are a seemingly contradiction.
If you only teach half you get a problem. Take heart you will all be safe! Oh thats nice, the prisoners think, lets escape and do what we may not. One sided osas preaching without warnings makes some people too secure.
If you dont forgive others you go to hell. Skip this text and only teach em you cannot get unsaved and they will not forgive and go to hell. People have seen born again tongue speaking family members in hell who refused to forgive a relative. It just happens, so don't be dumb and forgive.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Wow, the scriptorture in this thread is astounding.
Sure, if Pedrito or whoever, wants to take bits and pieces out of a letter here, a book there, a passage this way, then of course, you can twist it into meaning whatever you want.

It amazes me though, how the One True and Living God and Saviour Jesus Christ, went through ALL He did to save us, purchasing us in His own blood, and He holds out His hand to a bunch of undeserving, wretched sinners (no, I'm not pointing fingers ... I include myself, and it's the bible's consensus) and yet some ppl are determined to undermine His grace and goodness, and twist His Gospel (Good News) into a lifetime of fear, doubt, mean-spiritedness, and 'bad' cheer (instead of good cheer, mutual support and encouragement, and rejoicing).

Butcher 3 verses out of Hebrews 6, and you have saved ppl not only losing their salvation, but NEVER being able to 'get it again' .
Just horrible!

Same thing with other passages plucked out of their context...it's just sad what God/Jesus is portrayed as....an arbitrary, unpredictable, mean, 'Indian-giver' (←sorry, bad phrase).

Okay, lets say you're Once saved, but NOT ALWAYS saved....Can you get saved again?
Can you lose it again, then?
How many times can you get saved, lost, saved, lost?
If you die on that 'unsaved' day, do you go straight to hell, but if you dont die, and then get re-saved, then die, do you go straight to heaven?

Which sins do you have to commit (or is it the ones of Omission...) And how many, or for how long, does it take to get unsaved....and what does it take to get re-saved?

This sounds like the same kind of scriptorture and oppression that the RC, many cults, and other religions of false gods, impose on their adherents.
Sin, confess to a priest, repent ...
Sin, confess, repent ... lather, rinse, repeat.

What if you die in between trips to the confessional?
This whole thing is just so works/self-righteousness based.

Why not read these verses in the context of the full passage, chapters, or full letter?
Why not back up to Heb.5:12 and start reading forward...then go all the way thru chapter6, and key on vs9, and finish with vss17-20?

Then you'll see vss 4-6 in context, how it's NOT talking about a SAVED person LOSING their salvation, it doesnt apply to born-again or saved believers at all, and the full passage gives great ASSURANCE of salvation, bc JESUS accomplished it FOR us. Vss17-20.
And so many passages are like that.

I just dont understand this obsession with trying to make God look like a big stern taskmaster who wants to keep His subjects dangling over hot coals, ready to drop them in...
Instead of seeing Him as the loving Saviour and Good Shepherd that He is.

It's not believing that Jesus saves us once for all forever and we can trust in Him completely that sends ppl to hell...

It's the NOT believing in Jesus, and believing you might LOSE your salvation so you have to work or earn your way into His grace that sends ppl to hell, bc it means you're not fully trusting in Jesus, but self/works/behavior/performance, or some combination, to save and/or keep you.

Do you want an isolated chopped verse?
One with eternal promise and security, rather than fears and threats?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. ~Acts16:31b~ GBU resent:

Belief is shown through action and word.

Faith is effectual.

If change is not effected through faith and one doesn't abide by the Word then what is it they believe?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[psalms 91]

Wow, the scriptorture in this thread is astounding.
Sure, if Pedrito or whoever, wants to take bits and pieces out of a letter here, a book there, a passage this way, then of course, you can twist it into meaning whatever you want.

It amazes me though, how the One True and Living God and Saviour Jesus Christ, went through ALL He did to save us, purchasing us in His own blood, and He holds out His hand to a bunch of undeserving, wretched sinners (no, I'm not pointing fingers ... I include myself, and it's the bible's consensus) and yet some ppl are determined to undermine His grace and goodness, and twist His Gospel (Good News) into a lifetime of fear, doubt, mean-spiritedness, and 'bad' cheer (instead of good cheer, mutual support and encouragement, and rejoicing).

Butcher 3 verses out of Hebrews 6, and you have saved ppl not only losing their salvation, but NEVER being able to 'get it again' .
Just horrible!

Same thing with other passages plucked out of their context...it's just sad what God/Jesus is portrayed as....an arbitrary, unpredictable, mean, 'Indian-giver' (←sorry, bad phrase).

Okay, lets say you're Once saved, but NOT ALWAYS saved....Can you get saved again?
Can you lose it again, then?
How many times can you get saved, lost, saved, lost?
If you die on that 'unsaved' day, do you go straight to hell, but if you dont die, and then get re-saved, then die, do you go straight to heaven?

Which sins do you have to commit (or is it the ones of Omission...) And how many, or for how long, does it take to get unsaved....and what does it take to get re-saved?

This sounds like the same kind of scriptorture and oppression that the RC, many cults, and other religions of false gods, impose on their adherents.
Sin, confess to a priest, repent ...
Sin, confess, repent ... lather, rinse, repeat.

What if you die in between trips to the confessional?
This whole thing is just so works/self-righteousness based.

Why not read these verses in the context of the full passage, chapters, or full letter?
Why not back up to Heb.5:12 and start reading forward...then go all the way thru chapter6, and key on vs9, and finish with vss17-20?

Then you'll see vss 4-6 in context, how it's NOT talking about a SAVED person LOSING their salvation, it doesnt apply to born-again or saved believers at all, and the full passage gives great ASSURANCE of salvation, bc JESUS accomplished it FOR us. Vss17-20.
And so many passages are like that.

I just dont understand this obsession with trying to make God look like a big stern taskmaster who wants to keep His subjects dangling over hot coals, ready to drop them in...
Instead of seeing Him as the loving Saviour and Good Shepherd that He is.

It's not believing that Jesus saves us once for all forever and we can trust in Him completely that sends ppl to hell...

It's the NOT believing in Jesus, and believing you might LOSE your salvation so you have to work or earn your way into His grace that sends ppl to hell, bc it means you're not fully trusting in Jesus, but self/works/behavior/performance, or some combination, to save and/or keep you.

Do you want an isolated chopped verse?
One with eternal promise and security, rather than fears and threats?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. ~Acts16:31b~ GBU resent:

I hate to tell you nthis bnut no one scripture stand s alone, in oprder to gain understanding you have to sift through the entire word of God and arrive at meaning. Only the Holy Spirit can do this for you not man.

 

[MennoSota]

Undiscerned Spiritual Pride by Jonathan Edwards. I am as guilty as anyone of being prideful and I am sure all of you recognize it in me. This message will sober a person up quickly.
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/pride_edwards.html

 

[Imalive]

Undiscerned Spiritual Pride by Jonathan Edwards. I am as guilty as anyone of being prideful and I am sure all of you recognize it in me. This message will sober a person up quickly.
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/pride_edwards.html

That's great.
That's why young believers shouldn't be teachers. And if God wants to use you for something big He first humbles you and changes your heart, else it becomes a disaster.

 

[Pedrito]

I have a thought to float.

If one looked carefully at the scripture statements that indicate security, and looked carefully at the scripture statements that indicate that it is indeed possible to fall away with resulting dire consequences, might one find that:
- The statements that point to assurance state that God will not instigate the rejection of a believer.
- The statements that point to falling away (the sin unto death) show that the rejection of once-held faith can be instigated by individuals.

In fact, in I John 5:16-17 believers are expected to identify a brother (or a sister – a fellow believer) who is in that condition of falling away, and specifically not pray for them. That brother or sister has had it – they are doomed – there is no way back.

==============================================================================================

Once again I point out that the back door escape for “once saved, always saved” advocates when one of “their own” suddenly apostatises, is proclaiming “they were never saved in the first place”. That proclamation is made even though the apostate himself or herself formerly believed that they were surely saved, as did everyone who knew them. Neither that person, nor their Christian brothers and sisters, had any idea before the downward slide started, that it would ever start. They all thought it could never happen. And all would have stated so with conviction.

Which or course means that no “OS,AS” believer has any assurance at all. No assurance that they are indeed themselves saved. Because they have no idea whether or not one day that same statement – “they were never saved in the first place” – could be applied to them.

==============================================================================================

(The fact that Scripture also identifies false believers – people who have made false declarations of faith to suit their own nefarious purposes – is a separate issue, and should not be used in an attempt to muddy the water on this particular matter.)

==============================================================================================

And with respect to this from Post #47:
“Why not read these verses in the context of the full passage, chapters, or full letter?
Why not back up to Heb.5:12 and start reading forward...then go all the way thru chapter6, and key on vs9, and finish with vss17-20?

Then you'll see vss 4-6 in context, how it's NOT talking about a SAVED person LOSING their salvation, it doesnt apply to born-again or saved believers at all, and the full passage gives great ASSURANCE of salvation, bc JESUS accomplished it FOR us. Vss17-20.
And so many passages are like that.”

After reading the broader context as suggested, that context seemed to actually accentuate the dangers of falling away. The writer’s emphasis is on the importance of continued growth in wisdom and knowledge, versus the stagnation which can lead to a dangerous diminution of effective faith. Encouragement to move forward is thus the key.

 

[Albion]

I have a thought to float.

If one looked carefully at the scripture statements that indicate security, and looked carefully at the scripture statements that indicate that it is indeed possible to fall away with resulting dire consequences, might one find that:
- The statements that point to assurance state that God will not instigate the rejection of a believer.
- The statements that point to falling away (the sin unto death) show that the rejection of once-held faith can be instigated by individuals.

However, John 10:28-30 says:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Once again I point out that the back door escape for “once saved, always saved” advocates when one of “their own” suddenly apostatises, is proclaiming “they were never saved in the first place”. That proclamation is made even though the apostate himself or herself formerly believed that they were surely saved, as did everyone who knew them.

That does not in any way prove or show that they ever had saving Faith, though.

 

[popsthebuilder]

However, John 10:28-30 says:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.



That does not in any way prove or show that they ever had saving Faith, though.

Seems to me that "no man can pluck them away" could be referring to any other than self, or said individual themselves.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[MennoSota]

Seems to me that "no man can pluck them away" could be referring to any other than self, or said individual themselves.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Really? The context of John 10 doesn't support your contention.

 

[Pedrito]

@Albion in Post #52 offered:

However, John 10:28-30 says:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

Well pointed out.
[MENTION=37]popsthebuilder[/MENTION] expressed my understanding of the matter well in his Post #53:

Seems to me that "no man can pluck them away" could be referring to any other than self, or said individual themselves.

My understanding has been that protection from third party maleficence is an integral part of God’s beneficence towards those that love Him. But Albion has correctly taken me to task for not expressing the idea directly. And I thank him for plugging the gap.

(The context of John Chapter 10 is clearly that of third party interference. Bypassing other scripture so that first party action can be included, is subject to question. The Greek verb (pluck) pertains only to action originating externally.)

==============================================================================================

Albion, same Post [[insertion] added for clarity]:

That does not in any way prove or show that they [once-saved-always-saved people] ever had saving Faith, though.

Exactly my point. But they were once convinced that they did have that saving faith, as were those around them so convinced. They were all totally convinced. Absolutely convinced. They were convinced beyond all doubt – reasonable and unreasonable. To no avail.

The uncertainty is therefore constantly there. No once-saved-always-saved person can ever have any assurance that their faith – the faith that they and others are so convinced is so real right now – is the lasting one.

==============================================================================================

The other perspective of course is expressed thus:

Matthew 10:22: “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.”
Matthew 24:13: “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Mark 13:13: “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Philippians 3:10-11: “10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.” (Look at the expanded context.)
Revelation 2:17: “...To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it ."

That will do me for now.

 

[TurtleHare]

@Albion in Post #52 offered:


Well pointed out.

[MENTION=37]popsthebuilder[/MENTION] expressed my understanding of the matter well in his Post #53:


My understanding has been that protection from third party maleficence is an integral part of God’s beneficence towards those that love Him. But Albion has correctly taken me to task for not expressing the idea directly. And I thank him for plugging the gap.

(The context of John Chapter 10 is clearly that of third party interference. Bypassing other scripture so that first party action can be included, is subject to question. The Greek verb (pluck) pertains only to action originating externally.)

==============================================================================================

Albion, same Post [[insertion] added for clarity]:


Exactly my point. But they were once convinced that they did have that saving faith, as were those around them so convinced. They were all totally convinced. Absolutely convinced. They were convinced beyond all doubt – reasonable and unreasonable. To no avail.

The uncertainty is therefore constantly there. No once-saved-always-saved person can ever have any assurance that their faith – the faith that they and others are so convinced is so real right now – is the lasting one.

==============================================================================================

The other perspective of course is expressed thus:

Matthew 10:22: “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.”
Matthew 24:13: “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Mark 13:13: “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Philippians 3:10-11: “10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.” (Look at the expanded context.)
Revelation 2:17: “...To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it ."

That will do me for now.

See that's the problem of people saying look at my faith instead of look at my Jesus who forgives me. When you got the difference handled it is an eye widening experience of joy and peace.