APOSTLE'S or NICENE Creed?

[Albion]

Okay then. So where do we stand so far as the thread is concerned? No one except the author is offended by the Creeds, and his objection is that they are Creeds instead of something else.

 

[Josiah]

I guess fewer and fewer are being properly catechized...

Fewer in U.S. Now See Bible as Literal Word of God

Coinciding with a general decline in religiosity in the U.S., a record-low 20% of Americans now say they believe the Bible is literally true.

news.gallup.com

So it seems....

IMO, the problem lies with 3 things....

1. The prevailing relativism (in some ways, the religion of the post-Christian world). Relativism embraces (among other things) that "truth" is whatever it is TO YOU. There is no objective, universal truth (well, maybe math). We have OPINIONS but not truths. Too often, even Christians ask "well, what do YOU think" or "What this means to ME is...." This seems to discourage even having a teaching, much less teaching a position.

2. I fear lot of pastors and church leadership (buying in a bit to #1 above) just want to get _______ in the seats and bucks in the plate. And thus they want to offend as few as possible and eliminate as many barriers as possible. Theologically (and maybe also morally), pretty much anything goes. I understand there was a day when ALL churches had extensive "church membership" or "confirmation" classes - sometimes as much as 3 years long. My parish has a 12 week (probably 18 hour) class for converts but I understand this is not typical among LCMS Lutherans anymore - even just 18 hours! Our youth confirmation class is 2 years, but again, more than typical now. In my brothers "mega non-denom" there is ZERO formal instruction in what they teach (probably because they have no set teaching to teach), just say you believe in Jesus and live a "life of love." And a lot of sermons aren't theological but "how to" stuff, "Six Steps to Creating a Compliant Teenager." I suspect (hope!) a lot of these pastors DO believe in truth and DO agree with the theology that exists in their denomination (if there is any) but they realize it's divisive and no one gives a rip.

3. A lot of laypeople just don't care (see #1 above). They church shop" NOT for a parish that has proper doctrine but for one with a big parking lot, a handsome pastor, great youth programs, friendly members and fresh donuts. I'm always surprised by how people leave a church (often because the donuts aren't fresh or the music is too loud or too soft) and wonder eventually to some parish with ENTIRELY different theology - and they not only don't care, they don't know. But the music is the right volume or donuts fresher or sermons shorter or people more like them or the men's breakfast is awesome.


THAT said, there ARE exceptions. I personally know several Catholics (mostly College - 30's) who are VERY Catholic, VERY into studying Catholic theology - it's a small (tiny) but powerful movement in Catholicism. I sense that happens in most denominations that still have something to study. I suspect some here fall into this category.... uncommon, the exception to the rule, a tiny minority in their denomination, BUT exist. Gives me hope.



- Josiah

 

[Albion]

All that you've identified there is true.; However, I suspect it's mainly true of Western society, and then its churches are affected by it in turn.

As for the Catholics who approach these matters with more apparent seriousness, I wonder if that isn't because those people first became convinced (because they were told it relentlessly) that their denomination was the only real church.

Once a person becomes convinced of that, most of the church's devotions, etc. will follow. Not for every member, it's true, but for those who take religion at all seriously.

Scientologists and some other movements of that sort seem to produce in their followers a similar kind of loyalty, even without the membership totals and historic prominence that seem to "prove" the Roman Catholic Church's claims to her members.

 

[prism]

So it seems....

IMO, the problem lies with 3 things....

1. The prevailing relativism (in some ways, the religion of the post-Christian world). Relativism embraces (among other things) that "truth" is whatever it is TO YOU. There is no objective, universal truth (well, maybe math). We have OPINIONS but not truths. Too often, even Christians ask "well, what do YOU think" or "What this means to ME is...." This seems to discourage even having a teaching, much less teaching a position.

2. I fear lot of pastors and church leadership (buying in a bit to #1 above) just want to get _______ in the seats and bucks in the plate. And thus they want to offend as few as possible and eliminate as many barriers as possible. Theologically (and maybe also morally), pretty much anything goes. I understand there was a day when ALL churches had extensive "church membership" or "confirmation" classes - sometimes as much as 3 years long. My parish has a 12 week (probably 18 hour) class for converts but I understand this is not typical among LCMS Lutherans anymore - even just 18 hours! Our youth confirmation class is 2 years, but again, more than typical now. In my brothers "mega non-denom" there is ZERO formal instruction in what they teach (probably because they have no set teaching to teach), just say you believe in Jesus and live a "life of love." And a lot of sermons aren't theological but "how to" stuff, "Six Steps to Creating a Compliant Teenager." I suspect (hope!) a lot of these pastors DO believe in truth and DO agree with the theology that exists in their denomination (if there is any) but they realize it's divisive and no one gives a rip.

3. A lot of laypeople just don't care (see #1 above). They church shop" NOT for a parish that has proper doctrine but for one with a big parking lot, a handsome pastor, great youth programs, friendly members and fresh donuts. I'm always surprised by how people leave a church (often because the donuts aren't fresh or the music is too loud or too soft) and wonder eventually to some parish with ENTIRELY different theology - and they not only don't care, they don't know. But the music is the right volume or donuts fresher or sermons shorter or people more like them or the men's breakfast is awesome.


THAT said, there ARE exceptions. I personally know several Catholics (mostly College - 30's) who are VERY Catholic, VERY into studying Catholic theology - it's a small (tiny) but powerful movement in Catholicism. I sense that happens in most denominations that still have something to study. I suspect some here fall into this category.... uncommon, the exception to the rule, a tiny minority in their denomination, BUT exist. Gives me hope.



- Josiah

Agree with all 3 points, even the doughnuts are fresher at the LCMS congregations compared to WELS. (Albion, that was a joke.)

 

[prism]

As for the Catholics who approach these matters with more apparent seriousness, I wonder if that isn't because those people first became convinced (because they were told it relentlessly) that their denomination was the only real church.

If some Church/denomination told me that I would leave.

 

[Albion]

Agree with all 3 points, even the doughnuts are fresher at the LCMS congregations compared to WELS. (Albion, that was a joke.)

In my experience, you don't even get the donuts if it's a WELS congregation.

 

[Josiah]

If some Church/denomination told me that I would leave.

I did.


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