Antihistamines for works.

[Rens]

The wood, straw, and hay are what one uses to build the body of Christ (the church). wood, hay, and straw burn when there's a fire. They are lost and the structures in the church (body of Christ) that is made with them is lost.

Yes but an example?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes but an example?

A pastor who builds up the attendance in his parish church by eloquent speaking, clever advertising by word of mouth, novel songs and performances, and wherever else he needs to make his parish "seeker friendly" but he does not honour the liturgy pray regularly for his parishioners or use parish resources wisely to benefit the needy and sick and so forth. He is building in straw and hay and wood.

 

[Rens]

Oooh like what Ken Gott said. He held services everywhere but didn't make disciples and didn't build them. God showed him a heap of stones he was ministering to and said instead of having all these services all over the world he should focus on the people in his church and make disciples.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

So insists the individual RCC for it itself exclusively. The most radical form of individual interpretation found in all of Christiandom.

Josiah, did you miss this part in what you quoted?

This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

Did you not think that one can read, or did you just not edit that out? So it's either the Bishops in communion with the (Pope), or it is a "radical form of individual interpretation". Frankly, the "radical form of individual interpretation" belongs more to the evangelical church movement than it ever has to the RCC. Such an emphasis is given to "gather with other believers on Sunday to worship, but don't look to the Pastor to feed you -feed yourself!" rhetoric, it just made me sick. It's why I left. And I would suggest that the LCMS/ELCA/LCC, etc. don't leave things open to private interpretation either. Suggest to your pastor next Sunday that infant baptism is wrong, and that Christ is not present in the Eucharist, because you've "studied up" on the subject, and see what happens.

NO ONE ON THE PLANET EARTH is allergic to good works, NO ONE says that good words are bad, NO ONE says that good works are irrelevant or unnecessary. It's just that Protestants don't confuse the works of Christ with the works of Christians, they don't confuse justification with sanctification, self with God. CHRIST'S works matter in justification (because He is the Savior, not self) and OUR works matter in sanctification/CHRISTIAN discipleship - empowered by God - as Christians grow to be more like the One who saved them.

Agreed. Just so I'm not coming across as being too obtuse

 

[Rens]

A good pastor can give a good answer. The Bereans tested what Paul said in the Scriptures. Following some leader blind is never good. Follow me because I follow Christ, said Paul.

 

[atpollard]

Yes but I have no idea what is meant with that.

Have you ever heard of Jim Baker?
He built a great christian edifice by human effort that was ultimately revealed to be what it was (of man and not of God).
Disgrace and corruption and jail all followed and now, I believe, nothing remains of the human-built ministry.

Jim Baker served his time in prison and emerged humbled. He is still able to be of service to God, but now he speaks as a man who has been disgraced (and an ex-convict) but who understands the mercy of God. The lavish life is gone. The world-wide prestige is gone. His wife and family have left him.

That is what it means to build with stubble, to have what you build revealed and destroyed by fire, and to escape like a man fleeing from a burning building with nothing but the charred rags on your back (your life and nothing more).

Compare that to what the Apostle Paul built that we still see the growth of (the Gentile Church, Romans, Galatians, Corinthians, Timothy ...). There is a work that was tested by fire and stood.

 

[Cassia]

Yes, what is meant with hay? It's not living in sin, so what is neutral yet bad but not bad enough? I have no idea.

Zechariah 13:9
This third I will put into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are my people,’
and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’”
1 Peter 1:7
These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
Psalm 66:12
You let people ride over our heads;
we went through fire and water,
but you brought us to a place of abundance.
Job 23:10
But he knows the way that I take;
when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold.​

The fire is the Lord's judgment and each believer's work will be manifest to try and test each person's work. All the work of wood, grass, and stubble will be unable to stand that test and will be burned. Wood, grass, and stubble are the knowledge and attainments that come from a natural background of religion, philosophy, or culture, things that are built on sand.For instance wood when overlaid with gold is what the temple in the wilderness is made of, but alone it's just natural and signifies the old nature.

What will remain is any work that has been transformed by the Holy Spirit and is seen as gold, silver and precious stone. These are things that are built on the Rock and will remain.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
Malachi 4:1
“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the Lord Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Hebrews 6:8
But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
1 Corinthians 3:13
The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.​

 

[psalms 91]

How about thiose works that appear good but were done with the wrong motives eg to impress or to say look what i have done, or any other wrong thought

 

[Cassia]

How about thiose works that appear good but were done with the wrong motives eg to impress or to say look what i have done, or any other wrong thought

That's why the judgment seat of Christ is the place of refining ( obviously we go thru refining now to but that's needed to overcome satan flesh and world in this lifetime.) Jesus judges the heart. Motives usually have something other than God behind them. At least mine do so I hope that to be something that I check vigilantly.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, did you miss this part in what you quoted?

Yes, I did read what I quoted. The individual RCC states that IT (it uses that impersonal, singular pronoun) is the sole, singular, individual, exclusive interpreter of Scripture. IT says that IT is. And IT insists that IT is THE authoritative one. I don't know of a more radical proclaimation of individual interpretation than that of the RCC in the latest edition of the Catechism of it itself #85. So ironic to have Catholics complain about self proclaiming self as the one infallible, unaccountable, authoritative interpreter.

Frankly, the "radical form of individual interpretation" belongs more to the evangelical church movement than it ever has to the RCC.

Well, there are individual persons just as bad as the individual RC Denomination.... none are worse; none CAN we worse... but some are just as bad. I'd agree.

I would suggest that the LCMS/ELCA/LCC, etc. don't leave things open to private interpretation either

No, they don't. Of an individual person or preacher or denomination. And certainly the LCMS or ELCA or LCC does not insist that IT and IT itself exclusively is the sole, individual, infallible, unaccountable, authoritarian interpreter of Scripture.


Now to the subject: The entire premise of this thread is silly and absurd. No one (certainly not any Christian) believes that good words are bad or irrelevant or unnecessary.... no one is allergic to the concept of good works. No one does them - perfectly, always - but all are embracing of them. The Catholic opening poster simply is unaware that some believe that it's CHRIST'S works that matter in justification (not ours) and that it's OUR works (empowered and inspiried by God) that matter in sanctification - some don't confuse the two.



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

That's why the judgment seat of Christ is the place of refining ( obviously we go thru refining now to but that's needed to overcome satan flesh and world in this lifetime.) Jesus judges the heart. Motives usually have something other than God behind them. At least mine do so I hope that to be something that I check vigilantly.

Stop to consider what refining means. It is purging the dross in metal so that only the pure metal is left and the dross burned and skimmed off. Giving thought to the meaning of the word "purgatory" ought to reveal that it means refining. It means purging away the dross to leave only the pure metal. The idea is that all of the faithful come before Christ to be refined (purged) and that some will suffer the loss mentioned in 1Corinthians 3:10-15. Seeing that one's life's work in the Church was unable to withstand the fires of judgement is a great personal loss and to see it burned and removed is a cause of suffering for the ones who lose it. Some people suffer this loss in this world before death takes them before the judgement seat of Christ yet many (or most) do not and they face this loss at the judgement seat of Christ after they have left this world. If you dislike the word "purgatory" the truth still remains that purging by fire to refine and purify is what the faithful face when they appear before the judgement seat of Christ. The idea of purgatory is consistent with this thread's topic insofar as it touches upon works done in the Church. If the works are good then they will survive the fires and if not then they will be burned away.

Another passage that speaks to this matter is found in the Gospel according to saint John. In that passage Jesus speaks of the Father as the vine-grower who prunes the good and fruitful branches so that they will yield more fruit in greater abundance. There are other branches mentioned. They are the ones that "do not abide in me" and they will be removed and burned. It is a warning to heed with care. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. John 15:6

One other passage also speaks of correction applied to the faithful it is in the book of Hebrews. It speaks of this matter thus: Consider him who endured such hostility against himself from sinners, so that you may not grow weary or lose heart. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as children--'My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, or lose heart when you are punished by him; for the Lord disciplines those whom he loves, and chastises every child whom he accepts.' Endure trials for the sake of discipline. God is treating you as children; for what child is there whom a parent does not discipline? If you do not have that discipline in which all children share, then you are illegitimate and not his children. Moreover, we had human parents to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not be even more willing to be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share his holiness. Now, discipline always seems painful rather than pleasant at the time, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed. Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble, and through it many become defiled. See to it that no one becomes like Esau, an immoral and godless person, who sold his birthright for a single meal. You know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, even though he sought the blessing with tears. Heb 12:3-17 But here the emphasis is chiefly on discipline applied in this world rather than refining applied in the next.

So in summary it is taught in the holy scriptures that the faithful face fiery trials before the judgement seat of Christ, and in this life too, the purpose of which is to refine and purge them of dross so that they can be received into the Kingdom prepared for them from the foundations of the world. Some who are in the Church will face a more severe judgement ending in condemnation – these are the ‘other branches’ of John 15:6. Every Christian is warned and encouraged by the words of Christ. Warned to remain in him. Encouraged to bear much fruit.

 

[Cassia]

Loss is indicative of punishment but it's loss of rewards. The letters to the churches are all about loss and gain as rewards according to what each has done.

My brain isn't doing well on the rack at this time. I've had 2 brothers pass away under my care in the last 2 yrs and all I need now is a good long Sabbatical ... I'm really fighting hard to get one ...

Here's a list of reward scriptures if anyone wants to look them up. Those of OSAS regard all the negative aspects in the verses as being accorded to false believers. Others believe that they apply to those who once believed but have fallen.

Others believe the negative aspects of the verses refer to the suffering of the loss of the kingdom reward.
IOW, the works are burnt not the person!, like a stripping away or loss of many colors that the Father had originally given to you that will be shamefully worn into eternity (ok that's a bit colorful) But we still can miss losing rewards if we shrink back from the grace of God. That's the warning of Hebrews is to go boldly to the throne of grace. Ya'll are scaring the *** out of anyone to come forward to such a freaky God that burns and maims people. Not to say there's not a hell but it's not for believers.

Matt. 5:20; 7:21-23; 16:24-27; 19:23-30; 24:46-51; 25:11-13, 21, 23, 26-30; Luke 12:42-48; 19:17, 19, 22-27; Rom. 14:10, 12; 1 Cor. 3:8, 13-15; 4:5; 9:24-27; 2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Tim. 4:7-8; Heb. 2:3; 4:1, 9, 11; 6:4-8; 10:26-31, 35-39; 12:16-17, 28-29; and Rev. 2:7, 10-11, 17, 26-27; 3:4-5, 11-12, 20; 22:12.

 

[user1234]

Stop to consider what refining means. It is purging the dross in metal so that only the pure metal is left and the dross burned and skimmed off. Giving thought to the meaning of the word "purgatory" ought to reveal that it means refining. It means purging away the dross to leave only the pure metal. The idea is that all of the faithful come before Christ to be refined (purged) and that some will suffer the loss mentioned in 1Corinthians 3:10-15. Seeing that one's life's work in the Church was unable to withstand the fires of judgement is a great personal loss and to see it burned and removed is a cause of suffering for the ones who lose it. Some people suffer this loss in this world before death takes them before the judgement seat of Christ yet many (or most) do not and they face this loss at the judgement seat of Christ after they have left this world. If you dislike the word "purgatory" the truth still remains that purging by fire to refine and purify is what the faithful face when they appear before the judgement seat of Christ. The idea of purgatory is consistent with this thread's topic insofar as it touches upon works done in the Church. If the works are good then they will survive the fires and if not then they will be burned away.

Another passage that speaks to this matter is found in the Gospel according to saint John. In that passage Jesus speaks of the Father as the vine-grower who prunes the good and fruitful branches so that they will yield more fruit in greater abundance. There are other branches mentioned. They are the ones that "do not abide in me" and they will be removed and burned. It is a warning to heed with care. Whoever does not abide in me is thrown away like a branch and withers; such branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. John 15:6

One other passage also speaks of correction applied to the faithful it is in the book of Hebrews. It speaks of this matter thus: Consider him who endured such hostility against himself from sinners, so that you may not grow weary or lose heart. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as children--'My child, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, or lose heart when you are punished by him; for the Lord disciplines those whom he loves, and chastises every child whom he accepts.' Endure trials for the sake of discipline. God is treating you as children; for what child is there whom a parent does not discipline? If you do not have that discipline in which all children share, then you are illegitimate and not his children. Moreover, we had human parents to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not be even more willing to be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share his holiness. Now, discipline always seems painful rather than pleasant at the time, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed. Pursue peace with everyone, and the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble, and through it many become defiled. See to it that no one becomes like Esau, an immoral and godless person, who sold his birthright for a single meal. You know that later, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, even though he sought the blessing with tears. Heb 12:3-17 But here the emphasis is chiefly on discipline applied in this world rather than refining applied in the next.

So in summary it is taught in the holy scriptures that the faithful face fiery trials before the judgement seat of Christ, and in this life too, the purpose of which is to refine and purge them of dross so that they can be received into the Kingdom prepared for them from the foundations of the world. Some who are in the Church will face a more severe judgement ending in condemnation – these are the ‘other branches’ of John 15:6. Every Christian is warned and encouraged by the words of Christ. Warned to remain in him. Encouraged to bear much fruit.

Hi ... I try hard to get some kind of good news from your posts, but they're often so down, loaded with warnings and what ifs and dire news about disobedience and failure.
I dont know ... Didnt Jesus come to take away our sin? To destroy the devil? To defeat the grave? And give us the victory? Wheres the joy? The rejoicing? The encouragement to be brothers in Christ to work against the common enemy that wants to see us and our works burned in hell?

I just feel like 'whats the use' after reading alot of what you write.
Yes, we should be growing as christians, yes we should be doing good things, in and for the body of Christ, and helping others come in as well.

But you make it sound so burdensome and such drudgery and joyless work, so much heaviness in the message, and a similarity to some of those other religions that worship a false god of demands (you know the religion(s) I refer to) rather than our true Saviour of love. I'm not meaning to judge to condemn you, just trying get more encouragement and good cheer out of the whole thing.

The God who spoke the very universe into existence, became one of us, and went all the way to the cross to redeem us back to Himself and have us stand faultless before His throne, clothed in HIS righteousness, no condemnation.

Shouldn't we be rejoicing together a little more for Him and have a little less of the woe is us worries? I dont know, maybe Im missing something. I know I dont do nearly enough of what I should be doing, but when it seems like nothing will ever be good enough, or that what may be good is such an impossible task, it sorta feels like defeat instead of victory. Ahh, maybe it's just my mood, I got alot on my mind.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hi ... I try hard to get some kind of good news from your posts, but they're often so down, loaded with warnings and what ifs and dire news about disobedience and failure.
...

Try harder.

 

[user1234]

Try harder.

Nice way to show brotherly love. Christian? You represent well.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Nice way to show brotherly love. Christian? You represent well.

I do represent well

The gospel is a message of joy and freedom - freedom from the bondage of sin. One cannot be free from sin if one ignores one's own sins and happily rejoices in a sin laden life. That is the happiness of riot and indifference. Try the happiness of holiness and love for God that is not faked or superficial. That is a happiness worth striving for. Give it a go. It is not easy, the Lord said it would not be easy and he knew. But its reward is great and the joy it brings is not transitory but lasting.

 

[user1234]

I do represent well

The gospel is a message of joy and freedom - freedom from the bondage of sin. One cannot be free from sin if one ignores one's own sins and happily rejoices in a sin laden life. That is the happiness of riot and indifference. Try the happiness of holiness and love for God that is not faked or superficial. That is a happiness worth striving for. Give it a go. It is not easy, the Lord said it would not be easy and he knew. But its reward is great and the joy it brings is not transitory but lasting.

And who might it be that you are accusing of rejoicing in a 'sin-laden' life, Mr self-proclaimed holy one?
Pride goes before a fall, jack. Might want to be careful about casting stones.
1Cor13kjv

 

[MoreCoffee]

And who might it be that you are accusing of rejoicing in a 'sin-laden' life, Mr self-proclaimed holy one?
Pride goes before a fall, jack. Might want to be careful about casting stones.
1Cor13kjv

It may be helpful if you do not read my posts as if they were about you or about some specific person. My posts are usually about ideas. They also touch on how ideas influence people. And it is important to note that I do not proclaim myself holy. I know that I am not holy yet. But I trust in God through Jesus Christ that one day I will be as holy as God is. That is what God calls the faithful to. but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:15-16

 

[user1234]

It may be helpful if you do not read my posts as if they were about you or about some specific person. My posts are usually about ideas. They also touch on how ideas influence people. And it is important to note that I do not proclaim myself holy. I know that I am not holy yet. But I trust in God through Jesus Christ that one day I will be as holy as God is. That is what God calls the faithful to. but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." 1 Peter 1:15-16

I do represent well

The gospel is a message of joy and freedom - freedom from the bondage of sin. One cannot be free from sin if one ignores one's own sins and happily rejoices in a sin laden life. That is the happiness of riot and indifference. Try the happiness of holiness and love for God that is not faked or superficial. That is a happiness worth striving for. Give it a go. It is not easy, the Lord said it would not be easy and he knew. But its reward is great and the joy it brings is not transitory but lasting.

Ahh, but you requoted me when you first wrote the above post. If it was just a general statement not directed at anyone, there would have been no need to include my post with yours, now would there? :=D:

Anyway, two can play that game, right? Then, so, ... Why did you assume I was taking it personally? All I did was ask the question WHO were you accusing of rejoicing in sin?
I made no mention of who I thought you were referring to, I merely asked a general question, just like YOU claimed to make a general statement.

But, moving beyond that childishness, maybe it would help if a couple things were clear so the communication wouldn't devolve into petty squabbling over assumptions about who meant what, when who said what.

So I'll just ask a question or two, maybe your answers or lack of answers will clear some things up.
(And it's not a pass or fail test, and no one's going to condemn you, at least I won't)
Just hoping to be able to communicate better. So...

Are you saved?
There that's pretty cut and dry yes, no, or not sure, right?
Do you consider yourself to be a born-again christian, I mean,
(to avoid redundancy) have you been born again?

I guess it helps when ppl discuss these things if they know where the others stand regarding certain fundamentals of the faith, not for judgement, just for help in understanding each other during the conversations. Peace.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Yes, I did read what I quoted. The individual RCC states that IT (it uses that impersonal, singular pronoun) is the sole, singular, individual, exclusive interpreter of Scripture. IT says that IT is. And IT insists that IT is THE authoritative one. I don't know of a more radical proclaimation of individual interpretation than that of the RCC in the latest edition of the Catechism of it itself #85. So ironic to have Catholics complain about self proclaiming self as the one infallible, unaccountable, authoritative interpreter.

My point was that what you quoted went on to say "this means...", in reference to "IT". There's a definition of what "IT" is, and "IT" is not the "individual RCC". "IT" is "the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome".

No, they don't. Of an individual person or preacher or denomination. And certainly the LCMS or ELCA or LCC does not insist that IT and IT itself exclusively is the sole, individual, infallible, unaccountable, authoritarian interpreter of Scripture.

Maybe so, but if one would wish to continue calling oneself 'Lutheran', or to call oneself 'Lutheran' in the first place, there are certain doctrines of the faith that one must assent to. So, somewhere there is a line drawn between private interpretation and the requisite acceptance of the doctrines of one's faith.

But, I know all this is a huge rabbit trail. Sorry, MC...