3 Objections to the Doctrine of Election

[MoreCoffee]

First straw man: 1. If you believe in election, doesn’t that leave you with the problem of why God doesn’t choose to save everyone? Answer: No, this is an absurd question. It assumes a common and shared understanding of the doctrine of election and that is definitely problematic because the view of election present in the Westminster Confession of Faith is heresy. It is not a doctrine that any Catholic would accept as either biblical or in accord with holy tradition and the teaching of the Church. Thus it is a straw man question/objection designed as a lead in to a Calvinist theological explanation of a heretical doctrine.

Second straw man: 2. But if everything is fixed and certain, why pray, evangelize, or do anything at all? Answer: This is absurd; God is God and his knowledge and purposes are only partly revealed to us in this world so the premise of this straw man question is something that no Catholic would agree to. It is not taught in holy scripture or in holy tradition and the church does not promote such a view of the world, prayer, and evangelisation.

Third straw man: 3. I believe the Bible and I see all the teaching about election, but why do I still dislike it? Answer: Who in their right mind would say "I believe that bible" and in the same breath say "I do not like what it says"? This is boarding of comedic caricature.

Still no answer. You don't seem to want to actually engage. So be it.

Did you read post #39?

 

[Hammster]

Did you read post #39?

Yep. If that was an answer to my question, it wasn't very clear.

I think they are legitimate questions because they are not misrepresenting anything in order to prove a point that was never made.

 

[Josiah]

1. As a Lutheran, I believe that there is mystery in soteriology (which is why Lutherans tend to stay out of the Arminian/TULIPian fights, lol). The exact interplay of faith and grace, the exact dynamics in HOW God saves us is simply not defined in Scripture - and thus we leave it as mystery. The bottom line is this: GOD is the Savior, not us. And we are justified by God's grace in Christ through our faith, which is the gift of God. THAT we affirm with passion! Lutherans are passionately monergists. BTW, Lutherans tend to define "grace" here in a typically Protestant rather than Catholic maner, as God's undeserved, unmerited love and mercy, as getting what we don't deserve or earn; we don't define it as a "juice" God imputes in us that makes us able to do what we would not otherwise.


2. I accept the concept of the predestination of believers. Lutherans are more apt to call this "the doctrine of election" rather than predestination, but when applied to believers I don't think there's any difference. But again, Lutherans embrace mystery here. We hope to embrace what Scripture says without forcing OUR philosophies or theories or understandings on God and His Scripture. Lutherans are more comfortable with mystery and less comfortable with human logic and philosophy than many of our western brothers and sisters in Christ.


3. Lutherans understand "predestination" (election) as GOSPEL. For Lutherans, whether something is Law or Gospel is key to understanding it, and we see this as Gospel. It is meant to comfort and assure BELIEVERS; it is not meant to be a 'terror of the conscience.' Let me use this illustration (however flawed). I was "born" by C-section because I had a sever (and potentially fatal) heart problem that needed immediate surgery; for sometime after my birth (and before my second surgery), I was quite limited in size and activities (I'm amazingly healthy, active and handsome today, lol). Anyway, I SO VIVIDLY recall that when I was a little boy, I LOVED when my mother would tell me about before I was born. Even after she learned about my heart issue. She told me how very much she loved me and how she prayed constantly for me. She told me how Dad traded in his beloved sports car for a minivan, and gave up his office at home so it could be converted into a nursery for me (remember - the changes of me living were pretty poor). They told me that the day of my birth and first surgery, my bother and sister (my sis is 7 years older than me, my bro is 4 years older) both prayed outloud for me (I'd remember that when I had a fight with them!). And over 50 people from the church were at the hospital (some distance away since I was born at a children's teaching hospital affiliated with a university). She stressed to me how much I was loved EVEN BEFORE I WAS BORN. How much Mom and Dad wanted me, how much they did for me, the sacrifices they made for me. And they didn't know I would be such a smart, great, incredably handsome guy! They loved me BEFORE I did ANYTHING. Now, here's the meaning of that for me: I felt comforted, assured. I KNEW they loved me. They'd get mad at me. Dad would sometimes discipline me pretty severly, I had some ( now VERY embarrassing) fights with my Mom. BUT I knew they loved me - unconditionally, not because of who I am or am not, but because they have this incredible ability to love. And nothing would change that, nothing would separate me from that. And they would sacrifice for me - and they did (and still do!). I'd ask my Mom to tell me about before I was born - and she'd go over all that. Again and again. I think I was still asking her about that when I was 10. It's good to know.


4. If one believes, it's WHOLLY because of God who ALONE gets ALL the glory and thanks and credit. If they don't believe, that's WHOLLY their own fault and they alone get the blame. No one is in hell because God "gets off" on sending people to burn eternally or because God goofed. And no one is in heaven because they did something to bring that about. IF you are heaven bound - that's ALL God, ALL Gospel. IF you are hell bound, that's ALL law and all the one's fault.


5. The doctrine of election not only places all our confidence, hope, comfort and courage in GOD but it also takes the pride and burden off of us. We are not the Savior, God is. The doctrine of election builds humility, as well as hope and comfort. The Calvinist' idea of DOUBLE Predestination, the Dogma of Damnation is a Greek idea that I think is unbiblical and a terror to the conscience.



.

Appealing to mystery doesn't solve anything.

It's not the doctrine of election many have a problem with, it's the unbiblical dogmas of damnation and limited atonement that most have a problem with.

Appealing to your sense of "reason" simply places you above God, above Scripture. "The wise man admits when he does not know. The fool says he knows then proves that he does not." - Old Chinese proverb.




- Josiah

 

[Hammster]

It's not the doctrine of election many have a problem with, it's the unbiblical dogmas of damnation and limited atonement that most have a problem with.

Okay.

 

[MoreCoffee]

First straw man: 1. If you believe in election, doesn’t that leave you with the problem of why God doesn’t choose to save everyone? Answer: No, this is an absurd question. It assumes a common and shared understanding of the doctrine of election and that is definitely problematic because the view of election present in the Westminster Confession of Faith is heresy. It is not a doctrine that any Catholic would accept as either biblical or in accord with holy tradition and the teaching of the Church. Thus it is a straw man question/objection designed as a lead in to a Calvinist theological explanation of a heretical doctrine.

Second straw man: 2. But if everything is fixed and certain, why pray, evangelize, or do anything at all? Answer: This is absurd; God is God and his knowledge and purposes are only partly revealed to us in this world so the premise of this straw man question is something that no Catholic would agree to. It is not taught in holy scripture or in holy tradition and the church does not promote such a view of the world, prayer, and evangelisation.

Third straw man: 3. I believe the Bible and I see all the teaching about election, but why do I still dislike it? Answer: Who in their right mind would say "I believe that bible" and in the same breath say "I do not like what it says"? This is boarding of comedic caricature.

Yep. If that was an answer to my question, it wasn't very clear.

I think they are legitimate questions because they are not misrepresenting anything in order to prove a point that was never made.

How is it not clear that the three 'questions' are not answered when each of them is quoted and then answered? Did you read the article yourself?

 

[Hammster]

You've responded to a lot of questions in this thread. That doesn't mean you've answered them.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You've responded to a lot of questions in this thread. That doesn't mean you've answered them.

It is time to return to the thread's theme and cease with the meta-commentary.

 

[Hammster]

It is time to return to the thread's theme and cease with the meta-commentary.

Thank you.

 

[MoreCoffee]

As Henry Ford might have said "the [Reformed] Doctrine of Election is bunk!"

 

[Hammster]

As Henry Ford might have said "the [Reformed] Doctrine of Election is bunk!"

That means little from someone who holds to a demonic gospel.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Turning away from personal insults posted not so much to refute an argument or to advocate in favour of a doctrine as to reflect on one's interlocutor as if playing the man was a worthy approach to civil discussion, I suggest that a search of the holy scriptures and their use of words like "elect" and "election" will yield a better understanding of what election is and will permit civil discussion to thrive.

Here then are the uses of "elect" in the new testament:

(Matthew 24:22) And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

(Matthew 24:24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

(Matthew 24:31) And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

(Mark 13:20) And except the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh would have been saved; but for the elect's sake, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

(Mark 13:22) for there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show signs and wonders, that they may lead astray, if possible, the elect.

(Mark 13:27) And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

(Luke 18:7) And shall not God avenge his elect, that cry to him day and night, and yet he is longsuffering over them?

(Romans 8:33) Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth;

(Colossians 3:12) Put on therefore, as God's elect, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, longsuffering;

(1 Timothy 5:21) I charge thee in the sight of God, and Christ Jesus, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality.

(2 Timothy 2:10) Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

(Titus 1:1) Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

(1 Peter 1:1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

(1 Peter 2:4) unto whom coming, a living stone, rejected indeed of men, but with God elect, precious,

(1 Peter 2:6) Because it is contained in scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.

(1 Peter 2:9) But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

(1 Peter 5:13) She that is in Babylon, elect together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Mark my son.

(2 John 1:1) The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not I only, but also all they that know the truth;

(2 John 1:13) The children of thine elect sister salute thee.​

 

[Hammster]

I like them all.

 

[MoreCoffee]

None of the verses uses "elect" to mean a subset of humanity chosen in eternity by God who are the only ones who will be 'saved'

 

[Hammster]

What do you think elect means?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What do you think elect means?

You want an opinion after the actual uses have been given? You do not want to read them and present some sort of analysis of them?

I am not going to opine when the actual uses are available to provide a range of meanings.

 

[Hammster]

You want an opinion after the actual uses have been given? You do not want to read them and present some sort of analysis of them?

I am not going to opine when the actual uses are available to provide a range of meanings.

So no answer? M'kay.

 

[Hammster]

We'll try this one. When scripture says "the elect", what is meant?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So no answer? M'kay.

Sheesh!

 

[Hammster]

Sheesh!

I know. Your avoidance of answering direct questions is frustrating.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The places where "election" is used are these:

(Romans 9:11) for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,

(Romans 11:5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

(Romans 11:7) What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:

(Romans 11:28) As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.

(1 Thessalonians 1:4) knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,

(2 Peter 1:10) Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:
​