25 dead in a mass church shooting in Texas

tango

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Have you seen UK shooting statistics compared to USA shooting statistics?
Sure, shooting statistics might be way down. Instead in the UK people who want to harm someone else use a knife, baseball bat, broken bottle etc. Looking at guns in isolation is to twist statistics to make a political point. As I've said before, the problem is the intent to harm another rather than the specific choice of weapon.
 

tango

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Murders with firearms per million
UK: 0.236 - Ranked 44th.
US: 32.57 - Ranked 10th. 138 times more than United Kingdom​

Murder rate per million people
UK: 11.68 - Ranked 94th.
US: 42.01 - Ranked 43th. 4 times more than United Kingdom​

Interesting isn't it?
If you've decided to harm somebody a gun is an easier tool to work with than a knife. No surprises there really. The good thing about guns is that if you do go after someone and they have a gun everybody is on a level playing field. The 85-year-old stands a sporting chance against the 19-year-old if both have a gun. If both have knives or sticks the octagenarian doesn't stand a chance.
 

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Murders with firearms per million
UK: 0.236 - Ranked 44th.
US: 32.57 - Ranked 10th. 138 times more than United Kingdom

Murder rate per million people
UK: 11.68 - Ranked 94th.
US: 42.01 - Ranked 43th. 4 times more than United Kingdom

Interesting isn't it?
Sure, shooting statistics might be way down. Instead in the UK people who want to harm someone else use a knife, baseball bat, broken bottle etc. Looking at guns in isolation is to twist statistics to make a political point. As I've said before, the problem is the intent to harm another rather than the specific choice of weapon.
If you've decided to harm somebody a gun is an easier tool to work with than a knife. No surprises there really. The good thing about guns is that if you do go after someone and they have a gun everybody is on a level playing field. The 85-year-old stands a sporting chance against the 19-year-old if both have a gun. If both have knives or sticks the octagenarian doesn't stand a chance.
People who want to kill other people in the UK appears to be far fewer per capita than in the US. People with guns doing the killing are massively more common than people with guns doing the killing in the UK. Maybe the difficulty of obtaining a gun and the lack of a gun culture in the UK is a contributing factor, yes?
 

tango

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People who want to kill other people in the UK appears to be far fewer per capita than in the US. People with guns doing the killing are massively more common than people with guns doing the killing in the UK. Maybe the difficulty of obtaining a gun and the lack of a gun culture in the UK is a contributing factor, yes?
If you look purely at guns you get distorted views. As I said before if you're in the UK and you decide that a killing spree is the way you want to end your own life you have to find another way to do it. Frankly if I ever were to get caught up in the maelstrom of someone who wanted to die but take out as many others as they could, I'd rather face a guy with a gun than a guy with a sword. It's not like it's hard to find very crowded places and cause utter mayhem and, with the law-abiding citizen utterly disarmed (as is the case in the UK) it's not as if anyone could put a stop to it until the police showed up, at which point they'd face a hugely difficult job getting through the sheer number of people to figure out who the perpetrator was.

As you said it seems that in the UK the incidence of people wanting to pull off some kind of mass killing is lower. Perhaps we should look at the reasons for that, rather than fussing over what weapon is the most effective once someone has already crossed that line.

How about comparing the number of gun-related deaths per lawfully owned gun in the US to a comparable figure in the UK? When estimates of the number of lawfully owned guns in the US vary from about 200m to about 600m it paints a very different picture. Millions of guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens who somehow manage to go through each and every day without using their guns to kill anyone.

It's almost enough to make one think that killing someone is a voluntary act of man rather than caused by guns.
 

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The problem is Democrats. Most of the gun crime is done by them. Look at Chicago, it’s hard to find a Republican there.

We need gun control for Democrats.
 

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The problem is Democrats. Most of the gun crime is done by them. Look at Chicago, it’s hard to find a Republican there.

We need gun control for Democrats.
That must be a joke. There is no solution in segregating a group of people on in basis to apply different policies for. Though it is not a popular view there needs to be consistent gun regulations across the board. Yes, it is people who kill, not the objects themselves. But guns are not designed for anything else. It should still be possible to buy a gun, with regulations that can restrict it from some when they do not pass checks, for the purpose of defense. But there should be no other intention. We should not kill. There is a reason we had to be told by commandment.
 

tango

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That must be a joke. There is no solution in segregating a group of people on in basis to apply different policies for. Though it is not a popular view there needs to be consistent gun regulations across the board. Yes, it is people who kill, not the objects themselves. But guns are not designed for anything else. It should still be possible to buy a gun, with regulations that can restrict it from some when they do not pass checks, for the purpose of defense. But there should be no other intention. We should not kill. There is a reason we had to be told by commandment.
It would be great if the same rules could apply to everybody. But as things stand the Democrats whine about gun control while Democrat-run cities experience the worst levels of violence of all flavors. As an aside we hear so much about how black lives matter but apparently they only matter when they are ended by white guys. If a white cop kills a black man we see nationwide riots. When dozens of black men are killed by other black men in the (Democrat controlled) inner cities, usually with the firearms that are prohibited in those cities but apparently the law can't be enforced there, nobody bats an eyelid.

Of course it would be really nice if the criminals who aren't supposed to have guns didn't have them. Sadly criminals are called outlaws for a reason, and all the ever-more intrusive systems of checks and balances (you know, the ones that fail and fail and fail again and yet apparently will guide us to a land of overflowing milk and honey if only we let the Democrats tighten them up just a little more) won't stop the people who trade a couple of fully automatic weapons for a briefcase stuffed with Colombian marching powder.

In an ideal world nobody would be killing anyone else. Sadly in the real world it may be necessary to use deadly force in self-defence and to deny the law-abiding population the right to defend themselves in the face of extreme violence makes a mockery of any concepts of a right to life. A right is worthless unless it can be protected, and if I'm not allowed to protect my very right to life something is badly wrong.
 

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It would be great if the same rules could apply to everybody. But as things stand the Democrats whine about gun control while Democrat-run cities experience the worst levels of violence of all flavors. As an aside we hear so much about how black lives matter but apparently they only matter when they are ended by white guys. If a white cop kills a black man we see nationwide riots. When dozens of black men are killed by other black men in the (Democrat controlled) inner cities, usually with the firearms that are prohibited in those cities but apparently the law can't be enforced there, nobody bats an eyelid.

Of course it would be really nice if the criminals who aren't supposed to have guns didn't have them. Sadly criminals are called outlaws for a reason, and all the ever-more intrusive systems of checks and balances (you know, the ones that fail and fail and fail again and yet apparently will guide us to a land of overflowing milk and honey if only we let the Democrats tighten them up just a little more) won't stop the people who trade a couple of fully automatic weapons for a briefcase stuffed with Colombian marching powder.

In an ideal world nobody would be killing anyone else. Sadly in the real world it may be necessary to use deadly force in self-defence and to deny the law-abiding population the right to defend themselves in the face of extreme violence makes a mockery of any concepts of a right to life. A right is worthless unless it can be protected, and if I'm not allowed to protect my very right to life something is badly wrong.
Your whole argument is against a political party and those in it. First of all, I do not belong to any political party. Second of all, Christianity is not a political movement and it is not supposed to be. It is a mistake to seek having Christianity that way. That mistake has occurred enough in history, starting with that in the Roman Empire. I refuse to engage in discussion aiming at Democrats or Republicans. Broadbrushing that happens with that is unfair communication and not what should be in my Christian input. It is not for a political position. The real solution in Christ is bringing more to godliness, which is so far lacking too much.
 

tango

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Your whole argument is against a political party and those in it. First of all, I do not belong to any political party. Second of all, Christianity is not a political movement and it is not supposed to be. It is a mistake to seek having Christianity that way. That mistake has occurred enough in history, starting with that in the Roman Empire. I refuse to engage in discussion aiming at Democrats or Republicans. Broadbrushing that happens with that is unfair communication and not what should be in my Christian input. It is not for a political position. The real solution in Christ is bringing more to godliness, which is so far lacking too much.
This particular argument is against a position, not specifically a political party. There are some Democrats who own guns and support the second amendment, and there are some Republicans who would prefer more gun control.

My post was in response to your comment that we need the same rules for everybody, which was in response to a specific comment about Democrats and gun control. The primary thrust of my post was that criminals don't obey the rules and so imposing the same rules on everybody, however good an idea in theory, doesn't necessarily work out as one might hope when thinking of an ideal world.

I don't think I ever said Christianity was, or should be, a political movement.
 

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This particular argument is against a position, not specifically a political party. There are some Democrats who own guns and support the second amendment, and there are some Republicans who would prefer more gun control.

My post was in response to your comment that we need the same rules for everybody, which was in response to a specific comment about Democrats and gun control. The primary thrust of my post was that criminals don't obey the rules and so imposing the same rules on everybody, however good an idea in theory, doesn't necessarily work out as one might hope when thinking of an ideal world.

I don't think I ever said Christianity was, or should be, a political movement.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt, there still would not be a legal basis constitutionally to have restrictions in place for some according to whether they are politically Republican or Democrat. Any movement actually in that direction for controlling people would resemble fascism too much.
 

tango

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Giving you the benefit of the doubt, there still would not be a legal basis constitutionally to have restrictions in place for some according to whether they are politically Republican or Democrat. Any movement actually in that direction for controlling people would resemble fascism too much.
I agree entirely. It's just that most of the howling about needing gun control comes from Democrats, who have controlled the cities with the worst levels of violence (including gun crime) for decades, thereby providing plenty of evidence about just how effective their gun control policies actually are.

There's little need to have legislation to stop Democrats from owning guns. If they hate guns so much nobody is forcing them to own one.

As an aside it also shows the brazen hypocrisy of movements like Black Lives Matter, who care enough to riot when a black man is killed by a white cop but who don't show any signs of even remotely caring when black men are killed by other black men in inner city violence.
 

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I agree entirely. It's just that most of the howling about needing gun control comes from Democrats, who have controlled the cities with the worst levels of violence (including gun crime) for decades, thereby providing plenty of evidence about just how effective their gun control policies actually are.

There's little need to have legislation to stop Democrats from owning guns. If they hate guns so much nobody is forcing them to own one.

As an aside it also shows the brazen hypocrisy of movements like Black Lives Matter, who care enough to riot when a black man is killed by a white cop but who don't show any signs of even remotely caring when black men are killed by other black men in inner city violence.
It seems that focusing on politics and approaches which Republicans do, that many among Christians embrace, is in need of remembering who Jesus is. Remember his example, he shows mercy, love, compassion, patience, and caring for others in many ways. The downtrodden are not to be neglected. Violence is not shown to be the approach to solve things as a first resort.

I see Black Lives Matter is not being understood, with maybe no intention for that. It is not about who to care for, at all. It is about inequity in police action dealing with black civilians, it is really not as safe as it would be if all were treated equally. Of course any lives matter, I believe that far more than it seems that you do.
 

tango

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It seems that focusing on politics and approaches which Republicans do, that many among Christians embrace, is in need of remembering who Jesus is. Remember his example, he shows mercy, love, compassion, patience, and caring for others in many ways. The downtrodden are not to be neglected. Violence is not shown to be the approach to solve things as a first resort.

I see Black Lives Matter is not being understood, with maybe no intention for that. It is not about who to care for, at all. It is about inequity in police action dealing with black civilians, it is really not as safe as it would be if all were treated equally. Of course any lives matter, I believe that far more than it seems that you do.
Only Republicans focus on "politics and approaches"? Really? And you assume that you believe "any lives matter" more than I do? Based on what exactly?

If you have a useful point to make then by all means make it. If you have nothing more than assumptions and accusations I have to wonder whether you have a point at all. Otherwise your signature comment that "You can learn a lot about the way others are Christian by how they communicate when they disagree with what you say." appears particularly ironic, given your assumptions and accusations here.
 

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tango said:
Only Republicans focus on "politics and approaches"? Really?
I do not say that at all. It was your suggestion there should be separate treatment of Democrats in some business transactions, which requires among other things invasive inquiry of all individuals, which are irrelevant.

And you assume that you believe "any lives matter" more than I do? Based on what exactly?
If you have a useful point to make then by all means make it. If you have nothing more than assumptions and accusations I have to wonder whether you have a point at all. Otherwise your signature comment that "You can learn a lot about the way others are Christian by how they communicate when they disagree with what you say." appears particularly ironic, given your assumptions and accusations here.
I know that Black Lives Matter is unfairly dismissed. It is not about any lives not mattering, it is about the issue that many lives of black people are being endangered and being killed off from reactionary police response with brutality, that is not the case with other people in the nation.

All lives do matter to me. I can say they matter to me even more, as I see no indication you even make vegan choices, though they may matter as much to you if you do make the same choices, though you should care about unfair circumstances for black people too.

Was there really unfair assumption? I should have seen something already communicated from you for me not to say what I have.
 

tango

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I do not say that at all. It was your suggestion there should be separate treatment of Democrats in some business transactions, which requires among other things invasive inquiry of all individuals, which are irrelevant.
There should be separate treatment of Democrats? I'm not sure where I said that, unless you've taken my comment that there is "little need" to stop Democrats owning guns because if they hate guns so much they are free not to buy them and taken it to mean I think there is a need to legislate to stop Democrats owning guns.

I know that Black Lives Matter is unfairly dismissed. It is not about any lives not mattering, it is about the issue that many lives of black people are being endangered and being killed off from reactionary police response with brutality, that is not the case with other people in the nation.
Not the case, or simply not howled about as much in the media? And even Black Lives Matter (whose name does rather suggest a focus on, you know, the value of black lives) seem disinterested in black lives ended by black people in inner cities. It's a bit stupid to call your group Black Lives Matter, protest when black lives are prematurely ended but then ignore when even more black lives are prematurely ended.

If you truly believe black lives matter (as an organisation called Black Lives Matter might be expected to believe) wouldn't you be concerned about the largest cause of premature demise for young black men? Look at the stats of how many black men die at the hands of other black men compared to how many black men die at the hands of out-of-control cops. Perhaps the group should be renamed to Some Black Lives Matter, or perhaps Black Lives Matter When It Suits Us or something.

All lives do matter to me. I can say they matter to me even more, as I see no indication you even make vegan choices, though they may matter as much to you if you do make the same choices, though you should care about unfair circumstances for black people too.
What have vegan choices got to do with anything? Are you seriously derailing to the point you're saying a chicken has as much value as a human? God gave us the animals for food, he didn't give us each other for food.

Was there really unfair assumption? I should have seen something already communicated from you for me not to say what I have.
Your exact words were "Of course any lives matter, I believe that far more than it seems that you do." but it turns out that you don't value any human lives more than I do. From your comments about vegan lifestyles it seems your only justification for a comment that implies, in context, that I value some human lives less than you do is that I don't live a vegan lifestyle and therefore consider the life of a chicken to be worth less than the life of a human. And on that point I plead guilty as charged, I do regard the life of a chicken as being worth far less than a human whatever color skin that human might have. I strongly suspect you do too, unless you expect me to believe that you wouldn't swerve to avoid running over human if it meant running over a chicken.

But hey, good job on derailing the concept that all lives matter to imply it's about chickens and bugs and pigs rather than being about humans. Perhaps Black Lives Matter is missing something and should focus on black cats run over by police cars as well.
 

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I do not say that at all. It was your suggestion there should be separate treatment of Democrats in some business transactions, which requires among other things invasive inquiry of all individuals, which are irrelevant.

I know that Black Lives Matter is unfairly dismissed. It is not about any lives not mattering, it is about the issue that many lives of black people are being endangered and being killed off from reactionary police response with brutality, that is not the case with other people in the nation.

All lives do matter to me. I can say they matter to me even more, as I see no indication you even make vegan choices, though they may matter as much to you if you do make the same choices, though you should care about unfair circumstances for black people too.

Was there really unfair assumption? I should have seen something already communicated from you for me not to say what I have.
tango said:
There should be separate treatment of Democrats? I'm not sure where I said that, unless you've taken my comment that there is "little need" to stop Democrats owning guns because if they hate guns so much they are free not to buy them and taken it to mean I think there is a need to legislate to stop Democrats owning guns.

Not the case, or simply not howled about as much in the media? And even Black Lives Matter (whose name does rather suggest a focus on, you know, the value of black lives) seem disinterested in black lives ended by black people in inner cities. It's a bit stupid to call your group Black Lives Matter, protest when black lives are prematurely ended but then ignore when even more black lives are prematurely ended.

If you truly believe black lives matter (as an organisation called Black Lives Matter might be expected to believe) wouldn't you be concerned about the largest cause of premature demise for young black men? Look at the stats of how many black men die at the hands of other black men compared to how many black men die at the hands of out-of-control cops. Perhaps the group should be renamed to Some Black Lives Matter, or perhaps Black Lives Matter When It Suits Us or something.

What have vegan choices got to do with anything? Are you seriously derailing to the point you're saying a chicken has as much value as a human? God gave us the animals for food, he didn't give us each other for food.

Your exact words were "Of course any lives matter, I believe that far more than it seems that you do." but it turns out that you don't value any human lives more than I do. From your comments about vegan lifestyles it seems your only justification for a comment that implies, in context, that I value some human lives less than you do is that I don't live a vegan lifestyle and therefore consider the life of a chicken to be worth less than the life of a human. And on that point I plead guilty as charged, I do regard the life of a chicken as being worth far less than a human whatever color skin that human might have. I strongly suspect you do too, unless you expect me to believe that you wouldn't swerve to avoid running over human if it meant running over a chicken.

But hey, good job on derailing the concept that all lives matter to imply it's about chickens and bugs and pigs rather than being about humans. Perhaps Black Lives Matter is missing something and should focus on black cats run over by police cars as well.
Nice way to disown the statement that Democrats should be restricted from guns.

You still overlook what I stated already saying Black Lives Matter does not address violence of blacks against blacks, it is not about black people, it is about the police force with institutional violence against black people. The police, who should be trusted to protect the community, black people are in fear of being killed by! That is the issue of Black Lives Matter. And there is no one organization that is the Black Lives Matter. With its stated focus, it is not diluting that with other issues, though it does not mean there are no other issues. Other issues should still get attention, under their own terms.

You only show you do not care for black lives as much with not even trying to understand what their issues and their movements are about.

So you also want to argue with my vegan choices here?? I did not say human lives are not important. But I value the importance of animals lives, which their Creator recognizes, as is stated. You have no verse that states God made animals for being our food. The point I was bringing up is that I do value lives more, and that shows it. It shows I understand the value of black lives matter. And it does not show I value the lives of any others less.

You apparently just want to argue.
 
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