2 Questions for Trinitarians

[corman767]

1. Whom was Jesus Christ's Father?

And if you say correctly that "the Holy Spirit was his Father", then

2. Why do you believe in the Trinity which treats the Father and the Holy Spirit as being two different "persons"?

 

[Matthew ten Verseight]

1. Whom was Jesus Christ's Father?

And if you say correctly that "the Holy Spirit was his Father", then

2. Why do you believe in the Trinity which treats the Father and the Holy Spirit as being two different "persons"?

I am not a 'trinitarian'. Your question is faulty in both points, as the question does not properly understand the erroneous 'trinity' doctrine in the first place.

1. The Father (Ancient of Days), is Jesus' (the Son of Man) Father. You have a misunderstanding of Luke 1:35, and the last portion of it ought to have told you.

Mat_10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

2. I do not believe in the "trinity". It is erroneous doctrine (demonstrable upon request). I believe in the eternal heavenly Trio. Three distinct Persons/Beings that work together in family unity. Like 3 individual and distinct notes that when in symphony together, act as a chord (Trio) of harmony. The "trinity" doctrine doesn't actually treat the Father and the Holy Spirit as being two different persons. The "trinity" doctrine, erroneously states that the Father has no "form", "body", etc., and that they are really "perfectly one superabound" and "one in substance" and "from a single principle", and not actually three. The "trinity" doctrine is actually the reverse side of the same coin that unitarianism is on, just on the opposite side. They both arrive at the same erroneous point through differing errors.

 

[Josiah]

1. Whom was Jesus Christ's Father?

Legally, Joseph.

He has no biological "father". His "father" is also our father - the First Person of the Trinity.

And if you say correctly that "the Holy Spirit was his Father"

Nope.

2. Why do you believe in the Trinity which treats the Father and the Holy Spirit as being two different "persons"?

Because they are.




.

 

[JRT]

For many years I have struggled to understand the doctrine of the trinity. To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus. In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity. We are not limited to just these three. Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. God could be mother as well as father. God could be Wisdom / Word / Allah / Krishna / Manitou. God's possibilities are endless. These are merely our human images of God. God is, as always, ONE.

 

[atpollard]

1. Whom was Jesus Christ's Father?

2. Why do you believe in the Trinity which treats the Father and the Holy Spirit as being two different "persons"?

God the Father.

Matthew 3:16-17 [NASB]​

16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove [and] lighting on Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."​

• Voice of the Father heard from Heaven
• Holy Spirit descending like a dove
• Jesus Christ coming up out of the water.

 

[Albion]

JRT, that's not the orthodox Christian understanding of the nature of the Trinity, however.

You are right that it's about persona rather than persons, if by the latter we mean separate individual beings. BUT persona in this case does not mean just different manifestations of God in our world, possibly also even more than three.

That approach makes God unitary, all right, but it reduces the Trinity to just three different roles played by that God or else three different ways that we have perceived him. This has been explicitly rejected by the historic church.

 

[Josiah]

We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me.

"Persona" is from the Greek. "Person" is simply the English translation. The term (admittedly) comes from a heresy, one that argued that God is one but has 3 offices, vocations, jobs.... that He wears 3 "hats." Kind of like Joe Biden. He is a husband, a father, the president - 3 very different roles but one reality. This heresy (called model monarchianism, I'm probably spelling that wrong) was condemned as heresy BUT ironically the term "persona" (which refers to the masks that Greek actors wore) "stuck." It probably isn't the best word.... but then there is no word for this,


It is called the MYSTERY of the Trinity because. well, it is mystery.... simply beyond our ability to comprehend (which is EXACTLY as I'd expect; we can only understand the world we live in - ie physics - and that we "understand" only in tiny part (I have a Ph.D. in physics),. God is not a part of creation and thus is not a part of anything we CAN understand (we simply have no point of reference, no common denominator so to speak).

Scripture states that God is ONE (and so the Trinity affirms that as true).... and Scripture speaks of Father and Son and Holy Spirit, each as God, each acting individually as God, each with the attributes of God... there is a certain "three-ness" about this. What we have is one but three or one yet three. Does that "fit" our concept of physics? Well... as one with a doctorate in physics, it's not at all incredible AND YET we avoid all attempts to subject the Creator to the creation, to subject what is SUPER-natural to the natural.... it is MYSTERY simply because here we have a reality that is above and beyond Creation, physics, science.... and thus beyond our ability to understand.

We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God

Exactly.

Which is why I so embrace the MYSTERY of the Trinity..... it affirms a reality that the Bible lays forth without any attempt to explain it or make it "make sense" to fallen, sinful, puny human brains that CANNOT comprehend the SUPERnatural) ... it affirms what actually seems like a contradiction without eliminating the "problem." It's true because it's true - not because we can explain it.





.

 

[corman767]

I am not a 'trinitarian'. Your question is faulty in both points, as the question does not properly understand the erroneous 'trinity' doctrine in the first place.

2. I do not believe in the "trinity". It is erroneous doctrine (demonstrable upon request). I believe in the eternal heavenly Trio. Three distinct Persons/Beings that work together in family unity.

That's precisely what the Trinitarians believe, therefore you're a "Trinitarian". You just deny it.

 

[Origen]

That's precisely what the Trinitarians believe, therefore you're a "Trinitarian". You just deny it.

That is total nonsense. A person can know what something IS without accepting\believing it. I can tell you what an atheist believes but that in no way means or proves I am atheist.

Beside what was being described was no way trinitarian.

 

[Albion]

I do not believe in the "trinity". It is erroneous doctrine (demonstrable upon request). I believe in the eternal heavenly Trio. Three distinct Persons/Beings that work together in family unity.

That's precisely what the Trinitarians believe, therefore you're a "Trinitarian". You just deny it.

I beg your pardon. Trinitarians do not believe in a three man committee that we call "God!"

 

[Lamb]

The Athanasian Creed addresses the trinity very clearly:

Whoever desires to be saved must, above all, hold the catholic faith.


Whoever does not keep it whole and undefiled will without doubt perish eternally.


And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance.


For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Holy Spirit is another.


But the Godhead of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.


Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit: the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, the Holy Spirit uncreated; the Father infinite, the Son infinite, the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, the Holy Spirit eternal.


And yet there are not three Eternals, but one Eternal, just as there are not three Uncreated or three Infinites, but one Uncreated and one Infinite.


In the same way, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.


So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God;


And yet there are not three Gods, but one God.


So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord;


And yet there are not three Lords, but one Lord.


Just as we are compelled by the Christian truth to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so also are we prohibited by the catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.


The Father is not made nor created nor begotten by anyone.


The Son is neither made nor created, but begotten of the Father alone.


The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, neither made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding.


Thus, there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.


And in this Trinity none is before after another; none is greater or less than another;


But the whole three persons are coeternal with each other and coequal, so that in all things, as has been stated above, the Trinity in Unity and Unity in Trinity is to be worshiped.


Therefore, whoever desires to be saved must think thus about the Trinity.


But it is also necessary for everlasting salvation that one faithfully believe the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Therefore, it is the right faith that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is at the same time both God and man.


He is God, begotten from the substance of the Father before all ages; and He is man, born from the substance of His mother in this age: perfect God and perfect man, composed of a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father with respect to His divinity, less than the Father with respect to His humanity.


Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ: one, however, not by the conversion of the divinity into flesh, but by the assumption of the humanity into God; one altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.


For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ,


Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from dead, ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the living and the dead.


At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.


And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.


This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.

 

[corman767]

I beg your pardon. Trinitarians do not believe in a three man committee that we call "God!"

But you DO believe that God is three "persons".

As the song goes,

God in "three persons"...blessed Trinity.

 

[corman767]

The Athanasian Creed addresses the trinity very clearly:


For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Holy Spirit is another.

Well, according to the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit caused Mary to become pregnant with Jesus, therefore the Holy Spirit was his Father.
Obviously you Trinitarians believe that he had two Fathers?!

 

[corman767]

That is total nonsense. A person can know what something IS without accepting\believing it. I can tell what an atheist believes but that is no way mean or proves I am atheist.

Beside what was being described was no way trinitarian.

Do you even know what you believe?

 

[Origen]

Do you even know what you believe?

Thanks for non sequitur. That says a lot.

 

[corman767]

Legally, Joseph.

He has no biological "father". His "father" is also our father - the First Person of the Trinity.




Nope.





Because they are.




.

The Father, and the Holy Spirit are NOT 2 entities or persons. They're the same ONE, or One and the SAME.

 

[Albion]

But you DO believe that God is three "persons".

As the song goes,

God in "three persons"...blessed Trinity.

 

[Albion]

But you DO believe that God is three "persons".

As the song goes,

God in "three persons"...blessed Trinity.

Yes, but as you've already seen, that word--which was derived from the Greek--does not mean three separate individual beings. However, that is exactly what our friend Matthew gave as the meaning.

Well, according to the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit caused Mary to become pregnant with Jesus, therefore the Holy Spirit was his Father.
Obviously you Trinitarians believe that he had two Fathers?!

The Scripture says that the conception was by the action of the Holy Spirit, not that the Holy Spirit was Jesus' father. Jesus himself several times said that the Father (not the Holy Spirit) was his Father

The Father, and the Holy Spirit are NOT 2 entities or persons. They're the same ONE, or One and the SAME.

They are the same God, not that they are the same persona of God.

 

[JRT]

The Athanasian Creed addresses the trinity very clearly:

Whoever desires to be saved must, above all, hold the catholic faith.


Whoever does not keep it whole and undefiled will without doubt perish eternally.


And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance.


For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Holy Spirit is another.


But the Godhead of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.


Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit: the Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, the Holy Spirit uncreated; the Father infinite, the Son infinite, the Holy Spirit infinite; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, the Holy Spirit eternal.


And yet there are not three Eternals, but one Eternal, just as there are not three Uncreated or three Infinites, but one Uncreated and one Infinite.


In the same way, the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, the Holy Spirit almighty; and yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.


So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God;


And yet there are not three Gods, but one God.


So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord;


And yet there are not three Lords, but one Lord.


Just as we are compelled by the Christian truth to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so also are we prohibited by the catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.


The Father is not made nor created nor begotten by anyone.


The Son is neither made nor created, but begotten of the Father alone.


The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, neither made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding.


Thus, there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.


And in this Trinity none is before after another; none is greater or less than another;


But the whole three persons are coeternal with each other and coequal, so that in all things, as has been stated above, the Trinity in Unity and Unity in Trinity is to be worshiped.


Therefore, whoever desires to be saved must think thus about the Trinity.


But it is also necessary for everlasting salvation that one faithfully believe the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Therefore, it is the right faith that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is at the same time both God and man.


He is God, begotten from the substance of the Father before all ages; and He is man, born from the substance of His mother in this age: perfect God and perfect man, composed of a rational soul and human flesh; equal to the Father with respect to His divinity, less than the Father with respect to His humanity.


Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ: one, however, not by the conversion of the divinity into flesh, but by the assumption of the humanity into God; one altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.


For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ,


Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from dead, ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the living and the dead.


At His coming all people will rise again with their bodies and give an account concerning their own deeds.


And those who have done good will enter into eternal life, and those who have done evil into eternal fire.


This is the catholic faith; whoever does not believe it faithfully and firmly cannot be saved.

The Athanasian Creed is not clear at all. It is the attempt of fourth century Greek speaking Gentile Christians to explain the nature of God in the language of Greek philosophy. To the modern ear it sounds like gobbledygook and even if you have some background in Greek philosophy it is not much better.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia: "The formulation ‘one God in three persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formula that has first claim to the title of the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." – (1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

Some years ago I visited a Hindu temple. I stood before the altar area staring in silent amazement at the multitude of images of various deities, some of them very bizarre indeed. I had been there several minutes when I heard a gentle voice behind me say "God is One." I turned to meet the pundit (priest) of the temple. As he escorted me around the altar area he explained that while God is One, we in our finitude are unable to comprehend the fullness of God in a single "take". Each one of the "deities" before us was simply a different manifestation of God's Oneness. We Christians have done much the same with our trinity theory. Interestingly enough, the pundit was also a nuclear chemistry professor at a nearby university.

 

[Albion]

[Staff edit of flame]

Hard so say, but I know what the Christian belief is when it comes to the Trinity...and it's not that the Holy Spirit is the Father, or that there are three different beings we call God, or that the triune nature of the Holy Trinity is nothing more than that God appeared to men in different roles or guises, etc.

JRT said: The Athanasian Creed is not clear at all. It is the attempt of fourth century Greek speaking Gentile Christians to explain the nature of God in the language of Greek philosophy. To the modern ear it sounds like gobbledygook and even if you have some background in Greek philosophy it is not much better.

To moderns who don't have much of a background in Christian theology and/or history, that may be so..

However the Athanasian Creed is not just some throwaway statement from a long time ago that has no particular standing in Christianity today. And what is most clear is the fact that the various guesses we have been reading from different posters on this thread concerning the nature of the Trinity are completely at odds with the Athanasian Creed and with Christianity itself.