2 Questions for Trinitarians

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Lamb

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Yep. It's gobbledygook. It's theological gibberish. It's speaking in tongues. It's chasing ones own tail. It is incomprehensible. It is a contradiction, and circular, but worse, it's simply error. The theology denies the Father and the Son. It is of anti christ (vicarius christi).

You should really calm it down there since this site adheres to the Trinity & Nicene Creed as its statement of faith.
 

Josiah

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You should really calm it down there since this site adheres to the Trinity & Nicene Creed as its statement of faith.


I appreciate when Mormons and Seventh Day Adventist write their views..... I think it does MUCH to support the tradition of Trinity.

The "problem" with these is that they understand God not as Creator but as creation... and thus subject to this reality. Worse... they insist that God MUST submit to THEIR (often wrong) ideas of this reality. They reveal both very, very well. And the more they say, the more clear this is.

See post 34




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corman767

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CORMAN767


AGAIN, the English word "person" here does NOT (at all) mean what you are imposing. Trinitarians are not Mormons (hint: Mormons aren't Trinitarian). "Persona" is from the Greek ("Person" is simply an English translation, or perhaps tranlituration). It's the word Christians chose to use.... because there is not a word for exactly what is here. The term (admittedly) comes from a heresy, one that argued that God is one but has 3 offices, vocations, jobs.... that He wears 3 "hats." Kind of like Joe Biden. He is a husband, a father, the president - 3 very different roles but one reality. This heresy (called model monarchianism, I'm probably spelling that wrong) was condemned as heresy BUT ironically the term "persona" (which refers to the masks that Greek actors wore) "stuck." It probably isn't the best word.... but then there is no word for this, The term "person" (persona) is SIMPLY an ATTEMPT to convey a threeness about God, the reality of Father and Son and Holy Spirit while still embracing the ONENESS of God.

Jesus also referred to God as "the Comforter". Should not the Trinitarians add that to the "personas" of God as well, and thus make God out to be FOUR persons/personas, instead of three?
And seeing that He's also referred to as "the Word", why not make it FIVE persons/personas?

I would argue that the terms, "the Father", "the Word", "the Comforter", and "the Holy Spirit", are simply TITLES which describes the Biblical God.
And JESUS CHRIST was of course the flesh person of that One God.
 
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The "problem" with these is that they understand God not as Creator but as creation... and thus subject to this reality.
This is a great observation, especially valid for the Mormons.

I would only add that while Trinitarian Christianity always argues on the grounds of received revelation (Scriptures, or even tradition), non-Trinitarians either simply hurl isolated verses into the debate or state that the mystery of the Holy Trinity is hard to comprehend. Yes, the correct counter you presented here is that the mystery of God's nature isn't just hard to fully comprehend - but actually impossible for us finite beings! God isn't just an old guy with white beard, living on a cloud, having mood swings going from a strict judge to a loving father. He is literally the most otherwordly being there can be!
 
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Jesus also referred to God as "the Comforter". Should not the Trinitarians add that to the "personas" of God as well, and thus make God out to be FOUR persons/personas, instead of three?
And seeing that He's also referred to as "the Word", why not make it FIVE persons/personas?

I would argue that the terms, "the Father", "the Word", "the Comforter", and "the Holy Spirit", are simply TITLES which describes the Biblical God.
And JESUS CHRIST was of course the flesh person of that One God.
That would mean God is talking to himself and sending himself as the Comforter. Modalism simply doesn't quite stand the test when you encounter biblical passages in which the different Divine Persons interact with each other, and are actually distinct in their roles. On the other hand, it is not hard to ascribe those other titles to the 3 Persons forming the Trinity. We know the Son is Jesus, the Christ, and we know the Comforter sent to us is the Spirit of God.
 

corman767

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That would mean God is talking to himself and sending himself as the Comforter. Modalism simply doesn't quite stand the test when you encounter biblical passages in which the different Divine Persons interact with each other, and are actually distinct in their roles. On the other hand, it is not hard to ascribe those other titles to the 3 Persons forming the Trinity. We know the Son is Jesus, the Christ, and we know the Comforter sent to us is the Spirit of God.
>>We know the Son is Jesus, the Christ, and we know the Comforter sent to us is the Spirit of God.<<<

Do you know that there's no difference between "the Comforter", "the Spirit of God", and "the Holy Spirit"? Do you not understand that they are the SAME one; ONE and the same?
 
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Lucian Hodoboc

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So there always exists a being with 3 centers of consciousness, and The First of these three centers of consciousness always gives birth to The Second and always emanates The Third center of consciousness?

How do we define giving birth to and emanating in this theory?
 

Josiah

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Jesus also referred to God as "the Comforter". Should not the Trinitarians add that to the "personas" of God as well, and thus make God out to be FOUR persons/personas, instead of three?


Christianity understands "Comforter" as a quality and work of the Holy Spirit. Just as "Redeemer" refers to the Son and "Creator" and "Father" refers to the Father.



JESUS CHRIST was of course the flesh person of that One God.


Not exactly. Jesus is the INCARNATION of the SON (not the Father or the Holy Spirit).


See post 34




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>>We know the Son is Jesus, the Christ, and we know the Comforter sent to us is the Spirit of God.<<<

Do you know that there's no difference between "the Comforter", "the Spirit of God", and "the Holy Spirit"? Do you not understand that they are the SAME one; ONE and the same?
Yes, of course I understand they are the same, isn't that what I just wrote here? These are just different titles for the Holy Spirit alone. Never was Jesus or the Father called the Comforter or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit - they are distinct Persons.
 

Josiah

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hedrick

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I’m going to try to avoid writing a book, but still say why I think the Trinity makes sense to someone committed to the shema.

1) Christians have generally felt the Jesus shows us God, and that God was in Christ, including in his death. That gives us a God that isn’t just the unmoved mover, but had something like the obedient Son within his experience.

2) 1st Cent Judaism also felt a need to understand God in a way that included that kind of complexity. The Word in John 1 is based on a whole Jewish tradition, e.g. Philo, but also 1st Cent Jewish understanding of the figure of Wisdom in Proverbs. This thought resulted in various intermediaries between God and us. Some were not divine, but exalted men. Others were sort of God but were spoken of as distinct, e.g. Wisdom. Both approaches occur in the NT. I'm convinced by Kirk that the Synoptics see Jesus as an exalted man.** But John and Paul see him as a human embodiment of Wisdom, which is God in his immanent form.

3) Christian theology in the West has generally given priority to God being one. Augustine saw him as one, but with enough distinction to allow for the relationship of love. The three persons were in effect the two ends of the relationship, with the Holy Spirit being sort of the presence of the Father with the Son. The pre-Vatican 2 Catholic Encyclopedia speaks of the Trinity as “the same mind will have a three-fold consciousness, knowing itself in three ways in accordance with its three modes of existence.”

4) The most sensible modern model for God seems to be panentheism. This says that God is both outside the world and within it. This would seem to result in God existing in two different ways.

5) Nicea leaves a lot of flexibility. It says that the Son is of the same ousia as the Father. This can be, and was, understood in various ways, including two beings of the same kind, and a single being.

6) Scripture speaks of Christ in a way that matches the 1st Cent Jewish speculation. John 1 uses the Logos. Several passages refer to Christ as preexisting. Assuming they understood that his actual human body was born in the 1st Cent, this seems to mean something like John 1, as saying that the human was a form of something that always existed, and was part of God.

So I think it is reasonable to see God not as a pure monad but having within his experience two (three?) kinds of existence, one the transcendent creator, but one enough like us that the human form of it can form a model for us.

Note that I’m not arguing that three persons with one essence is that ideal way to describe this. But given the concepts available in the 4th Cent, it's probably the least bad way. No one claims that we can completely understand God, so we'll always have an approximation, given our own conceptual tools. So it's no insult to say that I don't find neo-platonic language useful. Nevertheless, I try to respond to the same concerns that led to it, and not to produce a modern version of a classic heresy.

(Note that the Trinity really developed to talk about the relationship between God and Christ. It always accommodated the Holy Spirit, but that was never the focus of discussion. The actual creed from Nicea has a paragraph on the Father, a paragraph on the Son, and then “and in the Holy Spirit.” Period. The version we use in church is a later expansion.)

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** J.R. Daniel Kirk, "A man attested to God." Referring to this book can get one banned from CF. But I think we have to be honest enough to admit that the Biblical writers often show several ways of thinking about the same thing. I think there's good reason to follow John and Paul here, but it's not clear that the Synoptics do so.
 
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corman767

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Christianity understands "Comforter" as a quality and work of the Holy Spirit.
(John 14:26 Jesus speaking) "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things................."

Whom should I believe? The Trinitarians? or Jesus? :)
 

Matthew ten Verseight

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You should really calm it down there since this site adheres to the Trinity & Nicene Creed as its statement of faith.
Do you even realize what section of the forums you are posting in? It's found in the section:

Forums : Non-Trinitarian & Non-Credal Discussions : World Religion & Speculative Theology

So, if you cannot handle a response, and need to 'pull rank' and 'tell me what to do', you should perhaps reconsider eliminating this section of the forums altogether, as I do not think you are spiritually adult enough to discuss religion/theology that is unlike your own error.

The statement of faith (on these two matters at least) is irrelevant, since I already disagreed with "trinity" and "Nicene" credalism at the beginning (and wear my 'badge' with honour, since it is really an attack on Christ Jesus and He bears it). However, if you are simply looking to be rid of me, well that is your evil prerogative, and nothing to do with me. I hope you can understand adult expression, and do not take too much offense, though I know how some are easily offended due to their pride, especially women (Isaiah 3:12).
 

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(John 14:26 Jesus speaking) "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things................."

Whom should I believe? The Trinitarians? or Jesus? :)


John 14:26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things...."

This fits perfectly with the Trinity.

See posts 34 and 50.




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atpollard

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Do you even realize what section of the forums you are posting in? It's found in the section:

Forums : Non-Trinitarian & Non-Credal Discussions : World Religion & Speculative Theology

So, if you cannot handle a response, and need to 'pull rank' and 'tell me what to do', you should perhaps reconsider eliminating this section of the forums altogether, as I do not think you are spiritually adult enough to discuss religion/theology that is unlike your own error.

The statement of faith (on these two matters at least) is irrelevant, since I already disagreed with "trinity" and "Nicene" credalism at the beginning (and wear my 'badge' with honour, since it is really an attack on Christ Jesus and He bears it). However, if you are simply looking to be rid of me, well that is your evil prerogative, and nothing to do with me. I hope you can understand adult expression, and do not take too much offense, though I know how some are easily offended due to their pride, especially women (Isaiah 3:12).
Since no one else responded to you yet, I will point out that it is not your disagreement that is objectionable, but your deliberate insult and contempt. It would be equally rude and improper for me to visit the Non-Mormon portion of a Mormon site and post “Joseph Smith is a real crackpot and Mormons must really be ‘morons’ to believe any of that worthless crap!”

Then if anyone objects to my boorish behavior, I could follow your example and defend myself by arguing that “Maybe you shouldn’t allow any non-Mormons to post if you can’t take a little criticism.”

All she was saying is “Don’t act like such a JERK.”
Capiche?
 

corman767

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Never was Jesus or the Father called the Comforter or the Spirit of God or the Holy Spirit - they are distinct Persons.
I got news for you, BB. Jesus who walked this earth two thousand plus years ago, he most definitely IS the Holy Spirit or Comforter today. Not the flesh and blood Jesus, mind you, but the Holy Spirit which dwelled within his flesh body while he was on earth.

(John 14:16,18, 20 Jesus speaking) "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

"I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you."

"At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
 

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This thread is now closed.

We allow non-Trinitarians to post here on Christianity Haven as a courtesy but we do not allow them to mock the Trinity or those who believe in it. Do not create a similar thread or it will be closed too. It's truly a shame that the conversation had to become dirty.
 
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