“Dividing the Essence?” Forbidden by the Athanasian Creed.

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No

The [Athanasian] Creed also reminds us that we must not “divide the Essence,” which is saying that there are parts to God. That would be to commit the error of partialism. The three-leaf clover or egg analogy falls in this category. Instead, all three Persons are simultaneously and equally (albeit mysteriously) the one, true God. That is, all three Persons of the Trinity share the same qualities, attributes, characteristics, and “essence” that makes each of them God: uncreated, unlimited, eternal, infinite, almighty, etc. The Creed goes on to say that their glory is equal and their majesty co-eternal.


For example, in Matthew 28:19, we are told that each Person shares the same divine name (which was treated with the utmost reverence by Jews). We know all the fullness of God dwells in Jesus (Colossians 2:9). And we know that both the Son and the Spirit share in the same title as “Lord” (Philippians 2:5-11, 2 Cor. 3:16-17) and are worthy of worship.

Thus, to say that any Person of the Trinity is only a “part of God” is to say that he is only “part God.” But Scripture attests that each Person is fully God in himself.

 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
31,689
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I've moved this thread to a more appropriate forum.
 

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
31,689
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The Athanasian Creed was written to preserve the faith against heretics such as:
Nestorius, Arius, Eutyches, Apollinaris, Sabellius, Macedonius, and Paul of Samosata
 

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
The Athanasian Creed was written to preserve the faith against heretics such as:
Nestorius, Arius, Eutyches, Apollinaris, Sabellius, Macedonius, and Paul of Samosata
Did you notice the indivisible essence of the Trinity? All having the name of Jesus Christ? One person tried to chop God's one essence into three pieces in order to separate them into the places he thought they should belong. This is an important post.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
31,689
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Did you notice the indivisible essence of the Trinity? All having the name of Jesus Christ? One person tried to chop God's one essence into three pieces in order to separate them into the places he thought they should belong. This is an important post.

Which of the listed heretics do you most closely align with if you disagree with the Athanasian Creed?
 

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
Which of the listed heretics do you most closely align with if you disagree with the Athanasian Creed?
I agree with it! Do you?
 

Albion

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
7,551
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Anglican
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes

The [Athanasian] Creed also reminds us that we must not “divide the Essence,” which is saying that there are parts to God.

What it's saying is that there are NOT parts to God.

...all three Persons are simultaneously and equally (albeit mysteriously) the one, true God.

That's true, but it stands in opposition to what you've previously posted as your own thinking about the nature of God.

That is, all three Persons of the Trinity share the same qualities, attributes, characteristics, and “essence” that makes each of them God: uncreated, unlimited, eternal, infinite, almighty, etc.

Wrong, and very obviously so.

For example, the Holy Spirit does not have a physical body, but the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity does.
 

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
What it's saying is that there are NOT parts to God.

That's true, but it stands in opposition to what you've previously posted as your own thinking about the nature of God.

Wrong, and very obviously so.

For example, the Holy Spirit does not have a physical body, but the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity does.
They would burn you at the stake back in the day for saying this. “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” Colossians 2:9 (KJV 1900)
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,121
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
For example, the Holy Spirit does not have a physical body, but the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity does.
Jesus Christ has a physical human body, this is the truth, it is part of the mystery of the incarnation that the Lord, Jesus Christ, is a human being. He is also God fully and absolutely. The Athanasian creed is a summary containing both the Nicene Creed's teaching and the teaching of the council of Chalcedon.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,121
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The Athanasian Creed says, in English,
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.​
And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.​
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.​
So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Coeternal together, and Coequal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.​
He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.​

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly​
the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.​
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.​
This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.​

The [Athanasian] Creed also reminds us that we must not “divide the Essence,”

The Athanasian Creed does not, in fact, say one must not divide the essence. But it does say
Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.​
which is close to "Neither confusing the Persons, nor dividing the essence".

The idea that is expressed is that Christians acknowledge both the distinct Persons of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit without mixing them or treating one as if he were the other, and Christians are careful not to split apart the divine nature as if there were three gods.

The second part of the creed expresses the union of human and divine in the person of Christ. This union does not change the divine nature into a human nature nor change human nature into the divine nature it is a union that is true and yet mysterious. Thus Christians affirm one person, Jesus Christ, as both fully God and fully human. So, in Christ, human nature is elevated in the resurrection into the heavens in the presence of God.
 
Last edited:

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
The Athanasian Creed says, in English,
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.​
And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.​
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.​
So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Coeternal together, and Coequal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.​
He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.​

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly​
the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.​
God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.​
This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.​



The Athanasian Creed does not, in fact, say one must not divide the essence. But it does say
Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance.​
which is close to "Neither confusing the Persons, nor dividing the essence".

The idea that is expressed is that Christians acknowledge both the distinct Persons of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit without mixing them or treating one as if he were the other, and Christians are careful not to split apart the divine nature as if three were three gods.

The second part of the creed expresses the union of human and divine in the person of Christ. This union does not change the divine nature into a human nature nor change human nature into the divine nature it is a union that is true and yet mysterious. Thus Christians affirm one person, Jesus Christ, as both fully God and fully human. So, in Christ, human nature is elevated in the resurrection into the heavens in the presence of God.
Is each person of the Trinity God? God is omnipresent. That means the Trinity is everywhere present. How can you divide that?
 
Last edited:

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,121
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Is each person of the Trinity God? God is omnipresent. That means the Trinity is everywhere present. How can you divide that?
Is there something specific you are asking?
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,121
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,121
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I'm just proving you do not understand God or the Trinity He consists of.
God consists of the trinity?
That is an odd turn of phrase.
The Athanasian Creed asserts that there is one God.
It also asserts that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three Gods.
So, what is this "consists of" that you've mentioned?
 

1689Dave

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2022
Messages
1,871
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
God consists of the trinity?
That is an odd turn of phrase.
The Athanasian Creed asserts that there is one God.
It also asserts that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three Gods.
So, what is this "consists of" that you've mentioned?
Can you provide my quote?
 
Top Bottom