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Scripture says neither...
That is YOUR interpretation...
It needs no interpretation...
It is a Mystery, as is Christ within you...
And "We are holding the Mystery of the Faith in a purified Conscience..."
Not in your young mind...
Think "Mystery" and you may get a little closer...
Arsenios
We are all children...
And you WILL grow...
God will see to it...
Your remark was childish, as you may agree...
Or you may not...
Christ said the Bread which He had Taken and Blessed and Broken IS His Body...
Are YOU a Member of His Body?
Have you been Taken by Christ?
Have you been...
To be present as a presence cannot avoid location - And in this case the location is "WITHIN" the "ELEMENTS" of bread and wine...
Unavoidable, I say! :)
The bread, AFTER being Taken and Blessed and Broken BY Christ, then IS His Body...
Just as it is plainly written in the text...
Arsenios
You are starting to sound like Bill Clinton! :)
No it doesn't... Existence does not specify when or where...
Slushing these together with "present" is wrong, Josiah...
The change came prior:
22:19 - NAS –
And when He had taken some bread
and given thanks
He broke it
and gave it to...
"Take... Eat... This is My Body... Broken for you..."
Remember, Rich - He did this the night BEFORE His Body had been broken on the Cross...
Christ Himself broke His Own Body for us...
We only do what He commands us to do...
Which He Himself did before He Suffered...
An ontological...
I must say that this exchange is a stitch!
You are falling into the fallacy of the false alternative...
The text is simple...
Look...
The Bread IS His Body -
That is what the text says -
Those are Jesus' words...
He does not say the Bread symbolizes His Body if you remember Him...
He does...
Actually, it means that the bread becomes the Body, and the wine the Blood...
And it becomes so through the invocation of God Who changes them,
and in obedience to Christ's commandment:
"Be ye doing this..."
For having given thanks and blessed and broken the Bread He said:
"Take... Eat...
τουτο ποιειτε εις την εμην αναμνησιν
"This be ye doing unto the remembering of Me."
Were His disciples doing this?
How long were they doing it?
When did they stop?
The imperative verb is in the present tense, with the implicit meaning of: "Keep on doing this..."
Arsenios
The Faith itself, the Faith of Christ, which He discipled to His Disciples, and sent them forth as Apostles, to disciple all the Nations, in the Faith of Christ...
This Faith is itself a Mystery, which is not held by logic, but only by a conscience purified in repentance...
1Ti 3:9 Holding...
Josiah, if you keep thinking like this, you are running a great risk of becoming Orthodox... :)
True even of Christ prior to His Ascension, for He said to Mary Magdalene: ""Touch Me not, for I have not yet ascended to My Father..."
So that in this life, we are not physically perfected...
The point was that antecedent beliefs were transformed by Christianity...
Observing antecedents and attributing Christianity as their effect is error...
The Shaman-practices of the Innuits, in Alaska, simply fell by the wayside...
Their function had been fulfilled...
The Life of the Ekklesia...
Nothing like revisionist history and Wikkipedian Christianity...
If you ask Native Alaskan Christians about their "original belief system" they will tell you they have always been Christians, and that their Shamanic practices and beliefs prior to their being missionized by the Russian Monks...