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    REDEMPTION/ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)

    Does God know who will never believe and ultimately spend eternity in Hell? Has God always known this or is His OMNISCIENCE growing? Did Christ shed blood for those that were already in Hell? (The Rich man Jesus spoke of) Do they have a chance at redemption? For what purpose was that blood shed?
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    REDEMPTION/ATONEMENT: US vs THEM (the L of TULIP)

    There are different theories about REDEMPTION. We all, if we are Christian, believe that Jesus Christ died to redeem. Beyond that, different people teach a different NATURE of the atonement and a different DESIGN of the redemption. With what follows, I propose to lay out in clear and logical...
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    Do you agree that there are verses in the Bible that seem to express contradictory ideas?

    Proverbs 26:4-5 [NKJV] 4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes. Commentary on Proverbs 26:4-5 by Matthew Henry See here the noble security of the scripture-style, which seems to contradict...
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    Do you agree that there are verses in the Bible that seem to express contradictory ideas?

    Paradox: “a seemingly absurd or self-contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true.” Scripture contains multiple paradoxes.
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    Truth

    Was the earth and all living things created in 6 days or Billions of years? What is TRUTH? (Reason or Revelation)
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    Were OT Laws Simply for Barbaric Times?

    A study on the impact of the loss of a parent on the mental health of children revealed that children recover from the death of a parent far quicker than the loss of a parent via divorce. The statistical link between children of divorce and - suicide, poverty, crime, mental illness - is also...
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    The Parable of the Landowner and Blood Atonement

    1 John 1:5-7 [NKJV] 5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the...
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    The Parable of the Landowner and Blood Atonement

    1 Peter 1:17-21 [NKJV] 17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay [here] in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, [like] silver or gold, from your aimless conduct...
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    For those who hold to TULIP, are any of you non-elect?

    I am a Particular Baptist … so where “Lutherans” are known to throw themselves upon [mystery], we “Baptists” are known for throwing ourselves upon [already, and not yet]. Mike was “saved” [past tense] when Mike was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4] and when...
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    For those who hold to TULIP, are any of you non-elect?

    Are you saying that the “elect” in those verses are unsaved? I look forward to your exegesis of any of those verses supporting that position. Once again you demand a “verbatim“ of your choosing rather than accepting the obvious teaching of scripture: [1Pe 1:2 NKJV] 2 elect according to the...
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    The Parable of the Landowner and Blood Atonement

    No, they don’t. First, I don’t even believe in penal substitutionary atonement, but even those that do are not “murderers by proxy” … your argument and analogy is hopelessly flawed. (Apples to Oranges) Second, unless one rejects the Bible, one MUST acknowledge that the blood of Christ...
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    The Parable of the Landowner and Blood Atonement

    Which part of “Jesus was not a victim, so your analogy is hopelessly flawed“ is so hard to understand? You keep asking what I am “seriously arguing” when I think that I am explaining it fairly clearly.
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    For those who hold to TULIP, are any of you non-elect?

    Yes, it is. ”ELECT” is a Biblical word that draws its definition from New Testament Scripture references. So if you can provide an example in scriprure where “the elect” are eternally damned, or otherwise not synonymous with “the Saints” or “the Saved”, then I will gladly entertain other...
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    The Parable of the Landowner and Blood Atonement

    The original question … … was answered in pointing out that the two examples: murdering first the servants (the prophets of the old testament) murder of the Son are not equivalent.
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    The Parable of the Landowner and Blood Atonement

    Jesus claimed more control than your statements imply. He was not a mere “willing participant” that submitted to events … Jesus chose to both live, die and live again by HIS POWER AND AUTHORITY.
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    The 5 points of TULIP for 1689Dave

    Respectfully, you are not struggling to believe … you are struggling against the “goodness” of God and proclaiming His ways and His word “evil”. I do not see how that is something within my power to help you with. God has said that not everyone will be saved. God has said that some (many)...
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    The 5 points of TULIP for 1689Dave

    Sometimes, but not always. In any event, the Ordo Salutis is a completely different issue from the 5 points of TULIP whose order is just based on forming an easy mnemonic acrostic. Each “TULIP” point stands as a truth on its own with biblical support (although “Limited Atonement” is more...
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    The 5 points of TULIP for 1689Dave

    Those who believe in Christ and trust in God become Children of God and spend eternity with God. Those that “suppress the truth” and “although they [know] God, they [do] not glorify Him as God, nor [are] thankful” [Romans 1:18-21] … God “gave them up/over” to following THEIR desires (rather...
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    The Parable of the Landowner and Blood Atonement

    You need to read John 10 again … nobody TOOK anything (or do we need to reject John along with Paul?). Christus Victor … Jesus laid down His life and Jesus took it up again and in doing so: the promise to Eve was fulfilled and DEATH was defeated.
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    The Parable of the Landowner and Blood Atonement

    John 10:17-18 [NKJV] "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."
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